Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
The only thing JCH did was invent a stereotype and take credit for them, the majority of Brer Rabbit tales are told pretty much verbatim from the oral sources of Black and Indigenous groups. Brer Rabbit is ours. JCH didn't make up the Tar Baby/Laughing Place/Goober Patch/various other Brer stories, he literally just pretty much "stole" them after he heard them from the mouths of African Americans. Without the stereotype involved in the stories, they could very well be the "true" tales black and indigenous people have been telling for years and years. I say that as someone who really does not like that "character" much at all. He isn't necessary to the stories.

Regardless, credit should be given back to the rightful owners. And should have been in the first place.

Anansi was more the "original" version of Brer Rabbit, even having his own Tar baby tale and they sometimes do come up every now and then in pop culture. (but I could be getting that wrong because there IS a hare in West African mythology, which might be a different thing entirely but the name has slipped.)
I wouldn't say Anansi was the original because both he and the Great Hare existed simultaneously in different places, but it was Native influence and what basically amounts to trauma bonding as to why the stories took off in the US.
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
ALSO, for what it's worth, the Harris versions were published during the era of the birth of the Edison light bulb, in which America/Europe wanted to 'captured things before they 'disappeared'-- this was the birth of American Anthropology, which directly stems from the "end" of the Indian Wars and US chattel slavery. This is why the stories were "transcribed" the way they were. It's the era of the American Museum of Natural History and recreating the exact locations where specimens were taken from, the human zoos, the start of the residential death camps of Native children (whilst simultaneously trying to capture their cultures which were sure to die out, etc.), Kipling, phrenology (like the racist garbage Sen. Warren spouted to assert her 'Nativeness' 🤮)--it goes on and on and on. But it's the same era. So while they might not be the best, I am sure an effort was made of some kind. Or what he thought was the most accurate. 😒
 
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Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
The Princess and the Frog is African American history.
Does it really qualify? It is important in that it features the first African-American Disney princess, but the directors weren't African-American.
The only thing JCH did was invent a stereotype and take credit for them, the majority of Brer Rabbit tales are told pretty much verbatim from the oral sources of Black and Indigenous groups. Brer Rabbit is ours. JCH didn't make up the Tar Baby/Laughing Place/Goober Patch/various other Brer stories, he literally just pretty much "stole" them after he heard them from the mouths of African Americans. Without the stereotype involved in the stories, they could very well be the "true" tales black and indigenous people have been telling for years and years. I say that as someone who really does not like that "character" much at all. He isn't necessary to the stories.
This stereotype isn't featured in Splash Mountain. Don't know if that's noteworthy, just figured I might as well bring it up.

Again, I don't think Joel ever claimed to have created the Brers himself, and wasn't his main reason for preserving the stories so they wouldn't be forgotten? Or am I just misremembering?
(but I could be getting that wrong because there IS a hare in West African mythology, which might be a different thing entirely but the name has slipped.)
Years ago, I got a book of Brer Rabbit stories retold by Karima Amin in the Splash Mountain gift shop. There's a section in the book that talks about African-American folklore, and there's a section about a rabbit character in mythology who goes up against characters like Lion, Leopard, and Elephant. I don't remember the name.
Not saying he did. However, to say that the Uncle Remus Tales are of African/African American history/literature is unfair, in my opinion. Yes, the stories are appropriated and “stolen,” but if you’ve read some of the stories, especially ones with Uncle Remus, they do not appear as having being written by an African American (they weren’t) and very much come off as appeasement to white Americans who were reading about an African American character. If one has read enough 19th century literature by African Americans, they would assume that no self-respecting African American writer would have created such a character as Remus.

Yes, the Brers originate from African/African American folklore, but SotS is not necessarily based on the original tales as they are before appropriation. It’s not like Walt Disney consulted African folklorists. The movie is based on version a white author wrote, versions that were read to many white children that included a fictional black character that white people loved (for obvious reasons).
No arguments here.
Which is why, what should have happened was Disney putting in actual work to make sure these stories were returned to us, and presented in a way that reflects our culture-- especially if they truly believe in their stories matter, giving the stage to those it belongs to should have been the first step. Which was always my thoughts on this topic. But they've made their decision to abandon the characters entirely, and are going to get away with it by doing bare minimum.
I still think that doing a series of shorts featuring the characters handled by African-Americans would help to fix the characters' reputation.

Regardless as to whether or not the stories are inherently racist, it should be remembered that Bob Iger didn't greenlight this project out of a love for Tiana or out of genuine concern that somebody would be uncomfortable riding Splash Mountain. That's giving the guy and the project way too much credit.
 

GoneForGood

Well-Known Member
Years ago, I got a book of Brer Rabbit stories retold by Karima Amin in the Splash Mountain gift shop. There's a section in the book that talks about African-American folklore, and there's a section about a rabbit character in mythology who goes up against characters like Lion, Leopard, and Elephant. I don't remember the name.
Woah! I did not know they sold books there! Do you remember what year exactly and what book it was?
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Does it really qualify? It is important in that it features the first African-American Disney princess, but the directors weren't African-American.
It does. It’s the first and so far only animated Disney film that features an African American female lead/princess. Anika Noni Rose is the first African American actress to voice a prominent female lead in a Disney animated film. That’s African American history.

Hattie McDaniel was the first African American female to win an Oscar for her role in Gone with the Wind. Halle Berry is the first and only African American actress to win a Best Actress Oscar for her role in Monster’s Ball. Neither film had black filmmakers, but they’re still part of African American history.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
Woah! I did not know they sold books there! Do you remember what year exactly and what book it was?
It was this book:
1643828560810.png
Don't recall what year I got the book... I think it was around 2008? Maybe 2007? Pretty sure it was earlier than 2010...

I recall they also had this book in the shop, too:
1643828628823.png

To my knowledge, the Briar Patch gift shop does not currently sell Brer Rabbit books (at least not non-Disney ones, anyway) and hasn't since 2011. I wouldn't be shocked if they've already started selling Princess and the Frog merchandise in there.
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
It does. It’s the first and so far only animated Disney film that features an African American female lead/princess. Anika Noni Rose is the first African American actress to voice a prominent female lead in a Disney animated film. That’s African American history.

Hattie McDaniel was the first African American female to win an Oscar for her role in Gone with the Wind. Halle Berry is the first and only African American actress to win a Best Actress Oscar for her role in Monster’s Ball. Neither film had black filmmakers, but they’re still part of African American history.
I was just thinking about this the other day. The Black American voice actors in SOTS really deserved a lot more, and still do. They should all have had careers like Mel Blanc and June Foray and Paul Frees. Even if Baskett passed away too soon, Johnny Lee should have had a voice acting career. I know he did some movies and television, but he really was a comedy genius. I hunted down reels of several movie musicals he was in that were made for Black audiences. All three of the Brers from SOTS were voiced by quadruple threats. It makes me so angry that they did not just make the animated shorts or more animated shorts after the film, because it cost Black artists work.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I was just thinking about this the other day. The Black American voice actors in SOTS really deserved a lot more, and still do. They should all have had careers like Mel Blanc and June Foray and Paul Frees. Even if Baskett passed away too soon, Johnny Lee should have had a voice acting career. I know he did some movies and television, but he really was a comedy genius. I hunted down reels of several movie musicals he was in that were made for Black audiences. All three of the Brers from SOTS were voiced by quadruple threats. It makes me so angry that they did not just make the animated shorts or more animated shorts after the film, because it cost Black artists work.
I agree. The timing and skin color were wrong, unfortunately. I think had the film been made a few decades later...let's say in the 60s or 70s, their careers would have had much better chances at taking off. Hollywood had already changed so much by that time.

It's all very unfortunate.
It kind of makes me wonder... if Disney had just made a fully animated film adapting the folktales, with or without Uncle Remus, instead of Song of the South, would it still be considered racist due to Joel Chandler Harris' handling the stories?
Most of the complaints about racism in SotS stem mostly from the Uncle Remus plot and not the Brers (except Tar Baby). Had they just stuck with the Brers and followed them around during their crazy adventures, I strongly believe they would have been fine. The Uncle Remus plot greatly hinders SotS. It's why Splash has the Brers, but no Remus. They're fine, he's not.

I'd be interested in seeing Disney take another stab at the Brers stories. I do have faith that they would do their homework by consulting the right people do a good job with it, but they don't seem to be interested.
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
It was this book:
Don't recall what year I got the book... I think it was around 2008? Maybe 2007? Pretty sure it was earlier than 2010...

I recall they also had this book in the shop, too:
To my knowledge, the Briar Patch gift shop does not currently sell Brer Rabbit books (at least not non-Disney ones, anyway) and hasn't since 2011. I wouldn't be shocked if they've already started selling Princess and the Frog merchandise in there.
I bought both of these there, too.
 

THE 1HAPPY HAUNT

Well-Known Member
Once again the film that the songs and the characters are from while in the ride have no racists undertones even if you find the movie problematic. There is no Tar Baby, no Uncle Remus. The story is restructured to fit the story of the mountain. And it works perfectly and does not need to be changed. 'But they have southern accents' you say. I ask, so what? Black people were the only ones with southern accents? Whites in the south did not have them? It is ok for animals from the south to have southern accents. That was the dumbest argument I have ever heard of why the ride should be changed. As if the animals in Princess and the frog also don't have southern accents.
 
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Professortango1

Well-Known Member
It does. It’s the first and so far only animated Disney film that features an African American female lead/princess. Anika Noni Rose is the first African American actress to voice a prominent female lead in a Disney animated film. That’s African American history.

Hattie McDaniel was the first African American female to win an Oscar for her role in Gone with the Wind. Halle Berry is the first and only African American actress to win a Best Actress Oscar for her role in Monster’s Ball. Neither film had black filmmakers, but they’re still part of African American history.

The Proud Family had been on Disney since 2001. Frozone was a major character in 2004. Hercules' storytellers were all black if I remember correctly. And let's not forget James Baskett's award winning performance as Br'er Fox and Uncle Remus. The first Academy Award Disney would earn and it was a Black actor who won it.

Yes, Tiana is the first black "princess" and is a significant marker in representation, but we shouldn't forget about the incredible talents who blazed the trail prior. I always found it odd that Princess and the Frog presents a black character living in the 1920's South, but the only conflict which she meets is because she's poor. I get not wanting to delve too deep in a cartoon, but they chose the setting and the characters. It reminds me of Greatest Showman when Efron is reluctant to be with Zendeya during the Civil War, yet they refuse to say why his parents wouldn't approve of her as a person.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The Proud Family had been on Disney since 2001. Frozone was a major character in 2004. Hercules' storytellers were all black if I remember correctly. And let's not forget James Baskett's award winning performance as Br'er Fox and Uncle Remus. The first Academy Award Disney would earn and it was a Black actor who won it.

Yes, Tiana is the first black "princess" and is a significant marker in representation, but we shouldn't forget about the incredible talents who blazed the trail prior. I always found it odd that Princess and the Frog presents a black character living in the 1920's South, but the only conflict which she meets is because she's poor. I get not wanting to delve too deep in a cartoon, but they chose the setting and the characters. It reminds me of Greatest Showman when Efron is reluctant to be with Zendeya during the Civil War, yet they refuse to say why his parents wouldn't approve of her as a person.
None of those examples interfere with what I am specifically talking about, which is a prominent female lead/protagonist in a Disney animated film. The Proud Family is a sitcom, none of the Muses in Hercules are lead female characters, Frozone is neither a lead, nor female, and James Baskett did not voice a prominent female lead either. So far, only PatF and Anika Noni Rose apply to what I’m specifically talking about.

I’m not forgetting about other talented African Americans.
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
None of those examples interfere with what I am specifically talking about, which is a prominent female lead/protagonist in a Disney animated film. The Proud Family is a sitcom, none of the Muses in Hercules are lead female characters, Frozone is neither a lead, nor female, and James Baskett did not voice a prominent female lead either. So far, only PatF and Anika Noni Rose apply to what I’m specifically talking about.

I’m not forgetting about other talented African Americans.
I get that. I just find it a bit odd to call someone the first if you have to put a lot of qualifiers in front of it. But yes, she is the first Black Female who played an animated character in a Disney theatrical release which was promoted into the Disney Princess brand.

At least they bothered to use Black characters in New Orleans. There's a local theatre gearing up to do a New Orleans themed Romeo and Juliet, and I know their actor pool is almost entirely white. They'll be portraying a city with nearly 60% Black Population with one Black actor and 25 white people. And I'm betting the Black Actor does some Voodoo stuff. This stuff kills me.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
As if the animals in Princess and the frog also don't have southern accents.
Well, Louis doesn't really. But a lot of characters in the film do indeed have Southern accents, so the point still stands.
I always found it odd that Princess and the Frog presents a black character living in the 1920's South, but the only conflict which she meets is because she's poor.
What about those guys that wouldn't let her buy their building? They were all but stated to be racist, what with their "considering a woman of your background" line.
 

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