Not all 164 pages but a good chunk of them, why?
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion
- Thread starter Californian Elitist
- Start date
Not all 164 pages but a good chunk of them, why?
You're just retreading everything already said. And if you did, you'd know we all pretty much have seen SotS.
Not the same at all.
Roger_the_pianist
Well-Known Member
Again, Splash Mountain does contain racism. Just because they are a rabbit, bear, and fox does not mean that they don't contain minstrelsy.
Where exactly is the minstrelsy in the ride?
GoneForGood
Well-Known Member
So, I'm going to very reluctantly jump in and say the use of "minstrel" to describe the main trio as depicted in Splash isn't very accurate. And quite odd. I can't quite find which scenes people are referring to for dialect in DL's version. Most dialogue is sung aside from a few scenes.
I know for a fact that WDW is set more in a country setting, and in doing so has more of a hillbilly, bumpkin accent. With "yall's" and "yonder" spoken throughout. (similar to CBJ)
Even then, dialect is absolutely toned down in the attraction. And even MORE so in the Disneyland Adventures game from 2011 James Avery as Brer Bear sounds almost totally different.
There may be a county/southern twang in their voices, absolutely. And there are MANY characters in fiction that have that. But- my issue comes in when people thing "country/southern drawl= black stereotype".
I don't talk like that. No one In my family talks like that. It's scary how people will just come out and say that animal characters sound like black stereotypes.
I honestly find that notion incredibly offensive.
Again, I am mostly talking about the ride here, because there IS a difference. The movie isn't the ride isn't the comic strip.
As for the film, this dialect is likely based on the way they are written in JCH books. Which is in a sense based upon Gullah.
en.wikipedia.org
(NOT that is absolves it of any criticism or the VARIOUS other issues it has.)
Voice clips in an attraction can be changed. This notion that the critter characters and stories can't be salvaged and repurposed in the Disney library is very silly.. Not that they will. But honestly, they don't need a log flume or disney. I've moved on I suppose.
They deserve better than the misuse they've gotten and continue to get.
I know for a fact that WDW is set more in a country setting, and in doing so has more of a hillbilly, bumpkin accent. With "yall's" and "yonder" spoken throughout. (similar to CBJ)
Even then, dialect is absolutely toned down in the attraction. And even MORE so in the Disneyland Adventures game from 2011 James Avery as Brer Bear sounds almost totally different.
There may be a county/southern twang in their voices, absolutely. And there are MANY characters in fiction that have that. But- my issue comes in when people thing "country/southern drawl= black stereotype".
I don't talk like that. No one In my family talks like that. It's scary how people will just come out and say that animal characters sound like black stereotypes.
I honestly find that notion incredibly offensive.
Again, I am mostly talking about the ride here, because there IS a difference. The movie isn't the ride isn't the comic strip.
As for the film, this dialect is likely based on the way they are written in JCH books. Which is in a sense based upon Gullah.
Gullah language - Wikipedia
(NOT that is absolves it of any criticism or the VARIOUS other issues it has.)
Voice clips in an attraction can be changed. This notion that the critter characters and stories can't be salvaged and repurposed in the Disney library is very silly.. Not that they will. But honestly, they don't need a log flume or disney. I've moved on I suppose.
They deserve better than the misuse they've gotten and continue to get.
Stevek
Well-Known Member
I would love to understand this as well. Just because a character (especially a cartoon character) talks with a certain accent, does not make it racist. It's an accent typical of the time and place the ride is set...and quite honestly, still typical of many parts of the south now.
THE 1HAPPY HAUNT
Well-Known Member
Sorry but what a load of crock. they are going to have to close the ride for to change it.
THE 1HAPPY HAUNT
Well-Known Member
I like this one.
Anjin
Well-Known Member
I haven't done the research myself, but the You Must Remember This podcast did a (mostly) excellent six part series on Song of the South that touches on the minstral roots of the Brer characters. It was convincing enough that I feel even more sure that the ride is past its time.
The first episode is here:
www.youmustrememberthispodcast.com
A word of warning about the final episode about the ride: since it's a podcast about Hollywood and not about theme parks, it leans into salacious stories about Disneyland that aren't really necessary to tell the story of Splash Mountain.
The first episode is here:
Disney’s Most Controversial Film (Six Degrees of Song of the South, Episode 1) — You Must Remember This
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts . Disney Plus is launching with the stated intention of streaming the entire Disney library...except for Song of the South , the 1946 animation/live-action hybrid film set on a post-Civil War plantation, which was theatrically re-released as recently as 19
www.youmustrememberthispodcast.com
A word of warning about the final episode about the ride: since it's a podcast about Hollywood and not about theme parks, it leans into salacious stories about Disneyland that aren't really necessary to tell the story of Splash Mountain.
BuzzedPotatoHead89
Well-Known Member
Exaggerated dialects and accents in and of themselves are perhaps insensitive. But racist? Seems like a stretch. In many cases animatronic or animated figures are given different vocal dialects (think of the Tiki Room, Pirates, Country Bears, Cars, etc.) to help the audience differentiate different characters.
Importantly this is not as a means of ill-will or mean spiritedness on the part of the designers. At worst some of these voices are perhaps based on outdated but largely innocuous tropes and could be re-recorded by authentic voice actors representing the culture in question.
But in most cases I view these were early if not crude attempts at inclusion, imitation and humor. Whether these are outdated or not the jury’s still not out.
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
That's what confuses me- why is a certain dialect/accent considered to be racist now? And if using certain dialects in a ride is offensive, then which one are we allowed to use that isn't offensive?
Then is it also racist to pretend a southern accent just doesn’t and has never existed?
Also the voice actress for Tiana was born in Connecticut, is it racist that she uses a southern accent for the role?
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
I'd say they should just switch the character voices over to Siri's voice if that's what offensive- but even Siri has the option to use different accents.
el_super
Well-Known Member
It all eventually leads back to appropriation and the way the movie/characters/songs were created.
It's not worth trying to explain all the intricacies of the history, in order to excuse the bad parts and save the good parts. Better to just replace the whole thing.
BuzzedPotatoHead89
Well-Known Member
Though I’m pretty sure you were being facetious, the problem is to the extent this level of thinking becomes pervasive it is the epitome of intellectual and creative laziness.
el_super
Well-Known Member
Uhm.. not being facetious. There's no point in trying to explain away the uncomfortable feelings the film/subject brings up in order to preserve their right to play Zip-a-dee-doo-dah on the entrance playlist.
Creative laziness is insisting that the same rides/attractions/stories and songs should be used over and over and over again. Being creatively progressive means pushing old the old stories to tell new ones. Even without the uncomfortable origin story, it's completely within reason that Disney would want to re-theme Splash Mountain and create a new attraction anyway.
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
It's interesting to think about how he increased reliance on pre existing IP in theme parks has led to Splash's unnecessary closure. Now every attraction and piece of merchandise in that park has to be tied to a major film, and theme park attractions have to be a part of a larger universe- like Galaxy's Edge or Avenger's Campus. A theme park attraction can't just entertain audiences and strengthen that park creatively- it has to tie in to the new films and be able to sell toys.
Splash Mountain has always existed as a separate entity from Song of the South. People understood it to be a different telling of the Brer story- and it uses the song of the South characters, music, and story so differently from the film that the argument can (and should) be made that it's not a direct adaptation of the film like critics are hyping it up to be. And that's how Disney designed their dark rides for decades- Snow White originally didn't have Snow White. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride takes you to hell. But in the age of every ride being a book report retelling of a film, the idea of an attraction being influenced by a film but not a direct adaptation of that film is incomprehensible to today's up and coming theme park audience.
The first and second generations of Imagineering understood that while the parks should help promote the films, they are separate entities and Disneyland additions should first and foremost be about improving the park. This seems to be a lost concept at Disney, and will lead to Disneyland becoming more and more like Universal over the next 20 years. WDI has fundamentally changed how they approach theme park design, and we're going to lose a lot of great things because of it. They might use the guise of equality for some changes- but I expect many to be driven primarily by merchandising. The "Mickey Avenue" replacing Main Street USA is eerily believable, and the addition of Disney film music during the evening loop at Main Street USA (it was playing during the extra shopping hour when I went) is a step in that direction.
Splash Mountain has always existed as a separate entity from Song of the South. People understood it to be a different telling of the Brer story- and it uses the song of the South characters, music, and story so differently from the film that the argument can (and should) be made that it's not a direct adaptation of the film like critics are hyping it up to be. And that's how Disney designed their dark rides for decades- Snow White originally didn't have Snow White. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride takes you to hell. But in the age of every ride being a book report retelling of a film, the idea of an attraction being influenced by a film but not a direct adaptation of that film is incomprehensible to today's up and coming theme park audience.
The first and second generations of Imagineering understood that while the parks should help promote the films, they are separate entities and Disneyland additions should first and foremost be about improving the park. This seems to be a lost concept at Disney, and will lead to Disneyland becoming more and more like Universal over the next 20 years. WDI has fundamentally changed how they approach theme park design, and we're going to lose a lot of great things because of it. They might use the guise of equality for some changes- but I expect many to be driven primarily by merchandising. The "Mickey Avenue" replacing Main Street USA is eerily believable, and the addition of Disney film music during the evening loop at Main Street USA (it was playing during the extra shopping hour when I went) is a step in that direction.