The new articulated bendy Bus

[Figment2005]

It's all about balance. Today Disney needs more Boats + Monorails. Disney needs to explore new technology like PRT transportation to feed Multimodal Stations for Buses, Monorails, Taxis etc ie. Downtown Disney.

I agree. The perfect transportation system is a balance of boats, rails, and busses. Rails should asset the high traffic routes between parks. Busses should be reserved for the resorts to the parks. Boats should help to alleviate stress on the other 2 systems.

 

[thehowiet]

For those pushing monorails:

How do you realistically propose moving 100-150k people around property all day, every day?

How expansive of a rail system are you proposing?

You make an excellent point with your question, Dave. My answer/comments:

At this point it would be next to impossible, if not completely impossible, to move that many guests with rail as the only mode of transportation, especially the way the property is laid out. If it were even possible, it would take a massive system and budget. In my opinion, the best approach would have been to keep up with expanding and enhancing the monorail and possibly building other types of rail systems as the property was rapidly developed over the past 2.5+ decades or so, but obviously we can't go back in time.

However, I would have loved if the MM+ budget was instead used to enhance the resort transportation system to rely less on buses, or at least turn the buses into something that is more of a special experience and unique to Disney. Unfortunately, it's difficult to quantify the ROI from a project of that nature though so I totally understand why MM+ would win out there (like it was ever even debated..). I still believe though that long-term, there is definitely intrinsic value to updating the resort transportation infrastructure in a major way, even if those updates do not include expanding the monorail. There is probably a very fine line between just throwing away tons of money and actually improving the guest experience enough to see ROI, with a lot of risk involved and not a lot of hard data to support my theoretical claims

Back to your question and to the layout of the property...The property would have had to have been developed and laid out in a more logical fashion for rail to work as the primary mode of moving the large number of daily guests you mention. I'm sure obstacles such as suitable land or land that was set aside for conservation came into play when deciding what parcels of the property to develop with parks and hotels, but I've often been left scratching my head when looking at the way a lot of the resort has been developed after the completion of the original MK area, or Phase I.

Sorry for the super long answer/response! In summary, it would have to be massive, so massive that at this point I can't imagine there is any discussion internally about how to potentially go forward and make monorails the primary mode of transportation these days. I'm sure it may come up in discussions as part of a bigger multi-modal initiative, but not as the primary.

I'm sure you actually have reliable inside information on the subject and since you visit the parks frequently I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what can/should be done with the current resort transportation system.

 

[PhotoDave219]

You make an excellent point with your question, Dave. My answer/comments:

At this point it would be next to impossible, if not completely impossible, to move that many guests with rail as the only mode of transportation, especially the way the property is laid out. If it were even possible, it would take a massive system and budget. In my opinion, the best approach would have been to keep up with expanding and enhancing the monorail and possibly building other types of rail systems as the property was rapidly developed over the past 2.5+ decades or so, but obviously we can't go back in time.

However, I would have loved if the MM+ budget was instead used to enhance the resort transportation system to rely less on buses, or at least turn the buses into something that is more of a special experience and unique to Disney. Unfortunately, it's difficult to quantify the ROI from a project of that nature though so I totally understand why MM+ would win out there (like it was ever even debated..). I still believe though that long-term, there is definitely intrinsic value to updating the resort transportation infrastructure in a major way, even if those updates do not include expanding the monorail. There is probably a very fine line between just throwing away tons of money and actually improving the guest experience enough to see ROI, with a lot of risk involved and not a lot of hard data to support my theoretical claims

Back to your question and to the layout of the property...The property would have had to have been developed and laid out in a more logical fashion for rail to work as the primary mode of moving the large number of daily guests you mention. I'm sure obstacles such as suitable land or land that was set aside for conservation came into play when deciding what parcels of the property to develop with parks and hotels, but I've often been left scratching my head when looking at the way a lot of the resort has been developed after the completion of the original MK area, or Phase I.

Sorry for the super long answer/response! In summary, it would have to be massive, so massive that at this point I can't imagine there is any discussion internally about how to potentially go forward and make monorails the primary mode of transportation these days. I'm sure it may come up in discussions as part of a bigger multi-modal initiative, but not as the primary.

I'm sure you actually have reliable inside information on the subject and since you visit the parks frequently I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what can/should be done with the current resort transportation system.

Oh I dig the well thought out response. I'm not going to give you crap for anything like that.

Anyways... Ideally, I think to serve this city - and that's what Lake Burna vista is - would be a massive system laid out like a subway - above ground of course.

You can't afford to build that in 2014.

 

[PhotoDave219]

This is a very true point many people ignore. The 28 miles Silver line from DC to Dulles airport cost 6.8 Billion dollars. To create a full rail system at Disney is a lot harder then to build a road. They are going to have to deal with environmental aspects of building supports in locations and we haven't even gotten into the cost of building new housings for these locomotives, stations, and the engines them selves. Your easily talking about a $10 Billion project at a minimum
A $500 Million dollar project that goes over budget is normal.. Could you imagine if a $10 Billion dollar project went over budget the same way MM+ did. $40 Billion dollars. No company wan'ts to picture that.

They needed the silver line when I graduated high school. I hated having to drive to Vienna & then spend another 45 minutes to the city

It's ridiculous how mismanaged Metro is.

 

[PhotoDave219]

It's all about balance. Today Disney needs more Boats + Monorails. Disney needs to explore new technology like PRT transportation to feed Multimodal Stations for Buses, Monorails, Taxis etc ie. Downtown Disney.

That's good - multi modes. But how on earth do you pay for it?

 

[Voxel]

They needed the silver line when I graduated high school. I hated having to drive to Vienna & then spend another 45 minutes to the city

It's ridiculous how mismanaged Metro is.

I agree. Its gonna be so much easier when its done to just take the train to dc then to dulles, so I don't have to stress about that drive.

 

[CDavid]

Oh I dig the well thought out response. I'm not going to give you crap for anything like that.

Anyways... Ideally, I think to serve this city - and that's what Lake Burna vista is - would be a massive system laid out like a subway - above ground of course.

You can't afford to build that in 2014.

The solution is to build it incrementally, concentrating first on routes with the highest traffic and/or where you can eliminate the greatest number of buses (and thus costs). That's going to be between the parks and the largest resorts. There are any number of ways to design such a network, some very much better than others, but it should ideally be a network of interconnected beams (people don't like to change trains); One of the least efficient options is to have trains running around in circles (loops) like a toy around the Christmas tree.

That's good - multi modes. But how on earth do you pay for it?

It's a rather incomplete, intangible answer, but the same way MM+ was supposed to produce financial results, by getting people to spend more freely. Make it easier for guests to hop over to the Marketplace (or wherever) for dinner, as opposed to eating at their resort food court, and maybe they'll do some shopping or explore DisneyQuest while there. Right now, resort to Downtown Disney by bus in the evening is something of an ordeal, not the sort of thing you do on a whim. Same principle holds for the water parks, mini-golf, or even park hopping. It's never going to be a complete answer to the significant up front costs for rail, but it seems no more difficult to demonstrate the financial benefits than colored bracelets.

 

[flynnibus]

This is a very true point many people ignore. The 28 miles Silver line from DC to Dulles airport cost 6.8 Billion dollars.

The silver line is its own boondoggle

Disney could cut a lot if that cost by being specialized and all within their control. The silver line includes entire urban redevelopment in Tyson's and a whole new train yard at Dulles.

The sad thing is, the distances are so far... Beyond commuters, the silver line offers little incentive for getting to the city. The biggest advantage is parking... But you can park for free in the city but not metro!

Even going to east falls church... It's quicker and cheaper for us to drive into the city.

 

[Voxel]

The silver line is its own boondoggle

Disney could cut a lot if that cost by being specialized and all within their control. The silver line includes entire urban redevelopment in Tyson's and a whole new train yard at Dulles.

The sad thing is, the distances are so far... Beyond commuters, the silver line offers little incentive for getting to the city. The biggest advantage is parking... But you can park for free in the city but not metro!

Even going to east falls church... It's quicker and cheaper for us to drive into the city.

I am not so sure Disney would be able to cut cost so easily. I hate to use this word but Footers need to go somewhere and Disney would still have to go through the environmental boards to get it approved to build in wildlife preserve areas. (The same would be done for more canals). Its a long and sometimes very costly experience. Disney would also regain those coast in the building of stations(or docks) in every hotel. The big question that I would like to know is how would be the best way to do it. Does each resort have a line if that is the case you talking a massive station! and an equally massive train shop which would require space.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Just a quick thought here. You can spend all the time you want comparing Disney's transportation system and be critical of the lack of light rail, more monorails, more boats, etc., however, lets not forget one thing. Municipalities have two things going for them. One is Federal Grants to pay for them and/or large populations paying fares to pay for them. Here, we are so indignantly preaching about how Disney is just not willing to spend money to expand them, when the reality of the discussion is the Disney would either have to raise rates even higher or charge separate for transportation to not severely effect the bottom line. On top of construction costs they would also have operational costs after it was put in place. It would be "handy" to have, it would be "special" to have, it would be "magical" to have, but none of us are willing to pay for it.

Many look at the transportation part of Disney as part of the show. Disney looks at it as pure unadulterated overhead. A necessary evil to get people from the hotels to the parks spending more money. A point were the blessing of size was adverse. There is a limit and a point of diminished return that realistically must be factored in to any scenario that we can dream up.

So much for being a quick thought.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

They needed the silver line when I graduated high school. I hated having to drive to Vienna & then spend another 45 minutes to the city

It's ridiculous how mismanaged Metro is.

Agree with you and @flynnibus on the ridiculousness of the Silver Line, though it should be noted that Metro should not be blamed for this fiasco - the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority is the party responsible for the design and construction of the Silver Line. WMATA will take over as the operator only after construction has been completed.

But you're main point is still valid: Metro is appalingly mismanaged. I'm sure half the escalators will be broken within a year given Metro's maintenance track record.

Just a quick thought here. You can spend all the time you want comparing Disney's transportation system and be critical of the lack of light rail, more monorails, more boats, etc., however, lets not forget one thing. Municipalities have two things going for them. One is Federal Grants to pay for them and/or large populations paying fares to pay for them. Here, we are so indignantly preaching about how Disney is just not willing to spend money to expand them, when the reality of the discussion is the Disney would either have to raise rates even higher or charge separate for transportation to not severely effect the bottom line. On top of construction costs they would also have operational costs after it was put in place. It would be "handy" to have, it would be "special" to have, it would be "magical" to have, but none of us are willing to pay for it.

True. Another thing to add is also the potential economic benefit from new transportation systems in the real world. Often new infrastructure will be used to help spur economic growth and lure new businesses and private development, which improves the return on investment over the long term by way of a broader tax base. WDW, with virtually no residents and no broader economy, lacks this component.

I do slightly disagree with the idea that guests wouldn't pay for such a service; a big reason people pay big bucks at the MK resorts is because of direct monorail access. But the broader point is what I highlighted in red. We know that, even with their high operational costs, the parks are quite profitable. Yes, implementing a new transportation system would be costly, and it would mean smaller profit margins during the construction years, but the money is there. All thats lacking is the will power to do it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

The solution is to build it incrementally, concentrating first on routes with the highest traffic and/or where you can eliminate the greatest number of buses (and thus costs). That's going to be between the parks and the largest resorts. There are any number of ways to design such a network, some very much better than others, but it should ideally be a network of interconnected beams (people don't like to change trains); One of the least efficient options is to have trains running around in circles (loops) like a toy around the Christmas tree.



It's a rather incomplete, intangible answer, but the same way MM+ was supposed to produce financial results, by getting people to spend more freely. Make it easier for guests to hop over to the Marketplace (or wherever) for dinner, as opposed to eating at their resort food court, and maybe they'll do some shopping or explore DisneyQuest while there. Right now, resort to Downtown Disney by bus in the evening is something of an ordeal, not the sort of thing you do on a whim. Same principle holds for the water parks, mini-golf, or even park hopping. It's never going to be a complete answer to the significant up front costs for rail, but it seems no more difficult to demonstrate the financial benefits than colored bracelets.

That's why adding busses from Park to Downtown Disney is starting to happen (DAK to DD). This is helpful for this problem.

Having said that, Disney hasn't addressed obvious things like this and are instead focusing on the psychological aspect of pulling out their wallet or trapping guests on property. We heard on here that improving the transportation was another idea being thrown around at the time of My Magic + and it lost out on funding in favor of My Magic +.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I do slightly disagree with the idea that guests wouldn't pay for such a service; a big reason people pay big bucks at the MK resorts is because of direct monorail access. But the broader point is what I highlighted in red. We know that, even with their high operational costs, the parks are quite profitable. Yes, implementing a new transportation system would be costly, and it would mean smaller profit margins during the construction years, but the money is there. All thats lacking is the will power to do it.

Yes, people do pay more for a monorail served MK area. But every resort on that line are Luxury Resorts and that is what everyone thinks they are paying for... It's included in the cost to stay at the resort. How do you justify people paying more at a moderate or low end resort. You can't, and they are the ones that will have to pay for it. Why should the MK Resort folks pay for it when they don't get any real value from it and already feel held up a gunpoint. They already have what they need.