The Miscellaneous Thought Thread

[Distorian]

I am grateful that Paris has retained their Tower of Terror. Goes to show that Mission Breakout was not as big of a success as people like to claim.

 

[TP2000]

Potentially morbid topic here, but I think we're all adult enough to handle it....

It's been quite awhile since a major earthquake hit SoCal, especially the Orange County area. There are several faults that run close to Disneyland that are capable of a 7.0 or greater earthquake on the Richter scale. The Newport-Inglewood fault is just west of Disneyland and is capable of up to a 7.4 and it caused the great Long Beach Earthquake of 1933 that destroyed so many school buildings. There's a fault directly under Villa Park, 7 miles east of Disneyland, capable of a 6.0. And the Elsinore fault runs basically under the 5 Freeway in Anaheim and is capable of up to a 7.5.

Any of these faults triggering at 6.0 or larger would be felt quite violently at Disneyland. It's been decades since the last big earthquake to be felt at Disneyland, the Northridge earthquake in the early 90's. I'm not concerned about DCA, all built in the past 25 years with modern codes.

But I wonder what could be in most danger of failure or collapse at Disneyland? Anything from 1955 to 1970, before modern codes began in the early 70's just after the Sylmar earthquake that killed several dozen people. Main Street USA, much of the Adventureland/Frontierland core of shops and dining, and the Castle.

Some of Tomorrowland is still original to 1955, like the Buzz Lightyear building. The Matterhorn and entire monorail route from 1959-61 would be interesting to know how it responds to a strong earthquake. It's A Small World and New Orleans Square from 1966? Haunted Mansion from 1969?

I wonder how much seismic retrofitting they have done to Disneyland's buildings from first 15 years of construction, before modern seismic codes started to be implemented in California in the 1970's?

 

[Distorian]

Potentially morbid topic here, but I think we're all adult enough to handle it....

It's been quite awhile since a major earthquake hit SoCal, especially the Orange County area. There are several faults that run close to Disneyland that are capable of a 7.0 or greater earthquake on the Richter scale. The Newport-Inglewood fault is just west of Disneyland and is capable of up to a 7.4 and it caused the great Long Beach Earthquake of 1933 that destroyed so many school buildings. There's a fault directly under Villa Park, 7 miles east of Disneyland, capable of a 6.0. And the Elsinore fault runs basically under the 5 Freeway in Anaheim and is capable of up to a 7.5.

Any of these faults triggering at 6.0 or larger would be felt quite violently at Disneyland. It's been decades since the last big earthquake to be felt at Disneyland, the Northridge earthquake in the early 90's. I'm not concerned about DCA, all built in the past 25 years with modern codes.

But I wonder what could be in most danger of failure or collapse at Disneyland? Anything from 1955 to 1970, before modern codes began in the early 70's just after the Sylmar earthquake that killed several dozen people. Main Street USA, much of the Adventureland/Frontierland core of shops and dining, and the Castle.

Some of Tomorrowland is still original to 1955, like the Buzz Lightyear building. The Matterhorn and entire monorail route from 1959-61 would be interesting to know how it responds to a strong earthquake. It's A Small World and New Orleans Square from 1966? Haunted Mansion from 1969?

I wonder how much seismic retrofitting they have done to Disneyland's buildings from first 15 years of construction, before modern seismic codes started to be implemented in California in the 1970's?

Of these, the only one I would find any concern with is the Matterhorn due to its size and already documented structural issues. The others might crack and need extensive repairs following a large earthquake, but I highly doubt they would completely collapse. The Matterhorn, however, although it does boast a steel skeleton, is mostly just wood and cement. Erosion has already taken its toll on the mountain, I'm not sure how well it would withstand a 7.0 earthquake if its epicenter was anywhere near to Disneyland.

 

[Disney Irish]

Potentially morbid topic here, but I think we're all adult enough to handle it....

It's been quite awhile since a major earthquake hit SoCal, especially the Orange County area. There are several faults that run close to Disneyland that are capable of a 7.0 or greater earthquake on the Richter scale. The Newport-Inglewood fault is just west of Disneyland and is capable of up to a 7.4 and it caused the great Long Beach Earthquake of 1933 that destroyed so many school buildings. There's a fault directly under Villa Park, 7 miles east of Disneyland, capable of a 6.0. And the Elsinore fault runs basically under the 5 Freeway in Anaheim and is capable of up to a 7.5.

Any of these faults triggering at 6.0 or larger would be felt quite violently at Disneyland. It's been decades since the last big earthquake to be felt at Disneyland, the Northridge earthquake in the early 90's. I'm not concerned about DCA, all built in the past 25 years with modern codes.

But I wonder what could be in most danger of failure or collapse at Disneyland? Anything from 1955 to 1970, before modern codes began in the early 70's just after the Sylmar earthquake that killed several dozen people. Main Street USA, much of the Adventureland/Frontierland core of shops and dining, and the Castle.

Some of Tomorrowland is still original to 1955, like the Buzz Lightyear building. The Matterhorn and entire monorail route from 1959-61 would be interesting to know how it responds to a strong earthquake. It's A Small World and New Orleans Square from 1966? Haunted Mansion from 1969?

I wonder how much seismic retrofitting they have done to Disneyland's buildings from first 15 years of construction, before modern seismic codes started to be implemented in California in the 1970's?

The 7.1 Ridgecrest in 2019 was felt at Disneyland, shook the entire Resort pretty violently for over 30 seconds, I was there. Shutdown the Park for quite a bit of time, but everything survived.

I would be surprised if the entire Resort hasn't been retrofitted at some point over the last 40 years when California started requiring earthquake retrofits.

 

[Distorian]

The 7.1 Ridgecrest in 2019 was felt at Disneyland, shook the entire Resort pretty violently for over 30 seconds, I was there. Shutdown the Park for quite a bit of time, but everything survived.

I would be surprised if the entire Resort hasn't been retrofitted at some point over the last 40 years when California started requiring earthquake retrofits.

And a month later, the chunk of the Matterhorn fell off. Coincidence? Maybe. Or I'm right!

 

[Disney Irish]

And a month later, the chunk of the Matterhorn fell off. Coincidence? Maybe. Or I'm right!

And that very well could be why they've been doing extensive refurbs on it for the last few years. What I recall was they were trying to separate the track from the mountain itself, likely they would do retrofits (if it hasn't already been done) at the same time.

 

[TP2000]

The 7.1 Ridgecrest in 2019 was felt at Disneyland, shook the entire Resort pretty violently for over 30 seconds, I was there. Shutdown the Park for quite a bit of time, but everything survived.

I was at home for that earthquake, and remember it. It was noticeable, but nowhere near "violent". The epicenter for that one was over 150 miles away, on the other side of the San Bernardino Mountains.

Nothing even fell off shelves at Disneyland, let alone broke windows or toppled furniture. Light fixtures and curtains swayed a bit, people oohed and aahed, nothing broke.

Even the smallest earthquakes shut down rides at Disneyland, so long as the CM in the control tower feels it.

What I'm talking about is a truly big earthquake, with actual violent shaking. Shelves collapsing, windows shattering, merchandise all falling into aisles, water sloshing out of flumes and lagoons, props falling, tracks bent, etc.

I would be surprised if the entire Resort hasn't been retrofitted at some point over the last 40 years when California started requiring earthquake retrofits.

I have to think they've done some retrofitting in places. They just have to have done that, somewhere. But on a mass scale? I've never seen any real evidence of that during big rehabs and such.

Here's a photo of New Tomorrowland construction in 1966, where they are adding the steel frame of the upcoming PeopleMover track to the original 1955 American Motors CircleVision building, so that it can become the new Bell System CircleVision for 1967. This is looking at that building's northern flank, from a Skyway bucket. That entire 1955 wood frame of the building remained for '67, and it likely remained again 30 years later when they retrofit it for the Rocket Rods queue.

This building is spindly, to say the least! There are no noticeable shear beams, and no diagonal bracing on that wood frame.

How many of the other original 1955 structures around the park are in the same situation and condition? Not that they are unsafe, but they certainly aren't up to modern standards and safety regulations for California's seismic codes.

 

[Distorian]

And that very well could be why they've been doing extensive refurbs on it for the last few years. What I recall was they were trying to separate the track from the mountain itself, likely they would do retrofits (if it hasn't already been done) at the same time.

I wonder how much actually could be done to the Matterhorn without effectively complete rebuilding the structure. If it came down to that, it would be amazing to see the Matterhorn rebuilt entirely. If I had my way, I would move the structure to the northeastern corner of the park, make it 300' tall, add a small alpine range to go alongside it with junior bobsleds as well as an alpine village, and have the Disneyland Railroad and Monorail pass through its interior. If you really want to go crazy, revive the Skyway and have it take guests from Tomorrowland to the base of the mountain. This would mean getting rid of or shrinking Autopia, but that's fine with me.

The current footprint of the Matterhorn is roughly 1.6 acres. The entire Norway Pavilion at Epcot is 1.5 acres. It would not be unreasonable to plop Frozen Ever After and a few extra shops onto that plot. Ideally, this would also involve sealing off the walkway between Pixie Hollow and the Lagoon. Although that might make foot traffic worse, it would remove the backside of the Buzz show building.

 

[Disney Irish]

I was at home for that earthquake, and remember it. It was noticeable, but nowhere near "violent". The epicenter for that one was over 150 miles away, on the other side of the San Bernardino Mountains.

Nothing even fell off shelves at Disneyland, let alone broke windows or toppled furniture. Light fixtures and curtains swayed a bit, people oohed and aahed, nothing broke.

Even the smallest earthquakes shut down rides at Disneyland, so long as the CM in the control tower feels it.

What I'm talking about is a truly big earthquake, with actual violent shaking. Shelves collapsing, windows shattering, merchandise all falling into aisles, water sloshing out of flumes and lagoons, props falling, tracks bent, etc.



I have to think they've done some retrofitting in places. They just have to have done that, somewhere. But on a mass scale? I've never seen any real evidence of that during big rehabs and such.

Here's a photo of New Tomorrowland construction in 1966, where they are adding the steel frame of the upcoming PeopleMover track to the original 1955 American Motors CircleVision building, so that it can become the new Bell System CircleVision for 1967. This is looking at that building's northern flank, from a Skyway bucket. That entire 1955 wood frame of the building remained for '67, and it likely remained again 30 years later when they retrofit it for the Rocket Rods queue.

This building is spindly, to say the least! There are no noticeable shear beams, and no diagonal bracing on that wood frame.

View attachment 913613

How many of the other original 1955 structures around the park are in the same situation and condition? Not that they are unsafe, but they certainly aren't up to modern standards and safety regulations for California's seismic codes.

As I said I was actually at the Parks that day, and things did fall off the shelves. Maybe there wasn't windows breaking but it was violent in that it was a fairly long earthquake that just kept going, longer than most, especially for being that far away.

Also you have to remember that Disneyland survived the Northridge quake in 1994, and nothing major happened during that one. So yeah I have to think they have retrofitted much of the Resort over the last 40 years with few exceptions. Especially since there are regulations on the books in Anaheim that require or at least heavily recommends it in existing structures especially during any renovation or remodeling, ie a refurb.

 

[TP2000]

As I said I was actually at the Parks that day, and things did fall off the shelves. Maybe there wasn't windows breaking but it was violent in that it was a fairly long earthquake that just kept going, longer than most, especially for being that far away.

Things fell off shelves? At Disneyland? In Anaheim? The one in California. During that July, 2019 earthquake in Ridgecrest?

Also you have to remember that Disneyland survived the Northridge quake in 1994, and nothing major happened during that one.

That one was 50 miles north as the crow flies. I'm not talking about those types of earthquakes far from Disneyland, I'm talking about an earthquake that happens on one of the major faults in Orange County that run within 5 miles or so of the park.

So yeah I have to think they have retrofitted much of the Resort over the last 40 years with few exceptions. Especially since there are regulations on the books in Anaheim that require or at least heavily recommends it in existing structures especially during any renovation or remodeling, ie a refurb.

That's how to upgrade un-reinforced masonry (AKA bricks, and old ones at that) buildings in Anaheim, which they basically stopped building in SoCal in the 1930's. There's no local ordinance in OC that has required Disneyland to retrofit any of their 1955-1970 buildings, none of which are un-reinforced bricks. And there is no statewide ordinance that says you have to go in and retrofit older wood frame warehouses or movie theaters or shops and restaurants, which is basically what Disneyland circa 1955-1970 is made up of.

Something tells me if they've been retrofitting old Disneyland buildings for earthquakes, they would have bragged about it.

Heck, we just found out they didn't even take down the old 1955 sign from the Carnation Cafe when they remodeled it in 1998! They just plastered the new sign over it. So it's doubtful they've gone in and retrofitted the 1955 wood frame skeleton of that Main Street building, or any Main Street building, for new seismic codes.

 

[Disney Irish]

Things fell off shelves? At Disneyland? In Anaheim? The one in California. During that July, 2019 earthquake in Ridgecrest?

Yes I was at DCA at the time, and things fell off the shelves. There wasn't damage but things fell off the shelves, like most 6-7+ earthquakes.

That one was 50 miles north as the crow flies. I'm not talking about those types of earthquakes far from Disneyland, I'm talking about an earthquake that happens on one of the major faults in Orange County that run within 5 miles or so of the park.



That's how to upgrade un-reinforced masonry (AKA bricks, and old ones at that) buildings in Anaheim, which they basically stopped building in SoCal in the 1930's. There's no local ordinance in OC that has required Disneyland to retrofit any of their 1955-1970 buildings, none of which are un-reinforced bricks. And there is no statewide ordinance that says you have to go in and retrofit older wood frame warehouses or movie theaters or shops and restaurants, which is basically what Disneyland circa 1955-1970 is made up of.

Something tells me if they've been retrofitting old Disneyland buildings for earthquakes, they would have bragged about it.

Heck, we just found out they didn't even take down the old 1955 sign from the Carnation Cafe when they remodeled it in 1998! They just plastered the new sign over it. So it's doubtful they've gone in and retrofitted the 1955 wood frame skeleton of that Main Street building, or any Main Street building, for new seismic codes.

Disneyland has no major active fault within 5 miles of it. The El Modeno fault that's close (little more than 5 miles away) hasn't been active in 11k years. Disneyland sits between the Whittier and Seal Beach faults, which are each 15 miles away from Disneyland, both of which are fairly quiet.

Fault Activity Map of California

maps.conservation.ca.gov

So while not impossible, there is probably not a 6+ quake happening within 5 miles of Disneyland within our lifetime. I'm sure we have some geologist on this site who can give you a more scientific answer, but I think its unlikely to happen.

As far as retrofits, we have no proof of anything, but I would bet a dozen churros (your favorite currency) they have retrofitted all major guest areas.

 

[eddie104]

Interesting video…

In Hollywood Studios they constructed a whole new area just for seating in GE. In Toy Story Land even the shading was themed. I think it’s bizarre that Disney doesn’t put the same amount of effort into a major park like DL.

 

[TP2000]

Yes I was at DCA at the time, and things fell off the shelves.

Here is your post from that evening in this forum, July 5th, 2019...

I’m in DCA at Smoke Jumpers right now. It was long and you could feel it was a rolling quake.

You made no mention of things falling or any damage while you were there that evening. Out of curiosity, what fell off the shelves at Smoke Jumpers? There are no shelves in the dining room, and the framed pictures are screwed into the wall like all Disney props to prevent people from stealing them.

What fell off a shelf at Smoke Jumpers?

For the people who weren't in SoCal in July, 2019, this was what the Ridgecrest earthquake 150+ miles away from Disneyland actually looked/felt like, videos below.

If you were walking in the park, you likely had no idea it was happening. But if you were standing still or sitting, you could feel the swaying motion and notice chandeliers or draperies swaying a bit. I was sitting on my davenport in my living room and felt the roll and sway. Much like the Easter, 2010 quake down in Baja, you could tell that it was a long ways away from OC but that it was major wherever it actually was happening.

But this in no way could be classified as "violent", and unless it was an egg balanced very carefully, nothing would fall off a shelf.

 

[Disney Irish]

Here is your post from that evening in this forum, July 5th, 2019...



You made no mention of things falling or any damage while you were there that evening. Out of curiosity, what fell off the shelves at Smoke Jumpers? There are no shelves in the dining room, and the framed pictures are screwed into the wall like all Disney props to prevent people from stealing them.

What fell off a shelf at Smoke Jumpers?

View attachment 913617
View attachment 913618

For the people who weren't in SoCal in July, 2019, this was what the Ridgecrest earthquake 150+ miles away from Disneyland actually looked/felt like, videos below.

If you were walking in the park, you likely had no idea it was happening. But if you were standing still or sitting, you could feel the swaying motion and notice chandeliers or draperies swaying a bit. I was sitting on my davenport in my living room and felt the roll and sway. Much like the Easter, 2010 quake down in Baja, you could tell that it was a long ways away from OC but that it was major wherever it actually was happening.

But this in no way could be classified as "violent", and unless it was an egg balanced very carefully, nothing would fall off a shelf.

Did I say there was damage? No I said thing fell off the shelves, as in I went to Elias' around the corner and saw some merch on the floor. Now it could have been rude guests who threw it on the floor in a panic, but there was stuff on the floor.

Plus, not that mentioned it in that thread you found, but my drink did fall off the table at Smoke Jumpers.

Anyways I don't know what you're trying to prove here, I know what I experienced. There is nothing to argue about here.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Shaking in Anaheim For July 5, 2019 was in no way violent. Per TP's vids, the shaking had a duration to it, but no one was excited (the normal definition of excited).

Per the modified mercalli intensity scale (which you personally can assist with if you report to the USGS any time you feel an earthquake), Anaheim, like most of the LA metro area felt at most mercalli IV ish which is light to moderate shaking on the high end at best. USGS's map shows a IV for DCA-

Mercalli IV is described as- "Felt indoors by many, outdoors by few during the day. At night, some are awakened. Dishes, windows, and doors are disturbed; walls make cracking sounds. Sensations are like a heavy truck striking a building. Standing vehicles are rocked noticeably."

Disturbed is the key term here. Possible some precariously items on shelves fell over or shifted slightly. Unlike the richter scale most people know which measures the released energy of an earthquake, the mercalli scale measures its felt intensity and dissipates with distance from the epicenter.

Dland is like the rest of the LA basin/metro area- susceptible to shaking from any large quake on a variety of faults within a hundred+ miles or so. The problem with the LA basin is, not unlike Mexico City and their 1985 earthquake, it is a huge pile of sediment and is prone to trapping and amplifying seismic waves. The classic statement is LA sits on a big bowl of jelly and will wobble for quite a while after a big quake.

While there is a variety of known large faults within proximity to Dland, a big quake on any of them would spell not a great time for Dland. IF (when) the Whittier or Newport-Inglewood faults rip off, or Chino, or Elsinore... Santa Monica... it will not be great for the City of Angels and all surrounding areas. IF (when) the San Andreas decides to unzip its entire southern third like it did in 1857 (Fort Tejon) Disneyland will have a lot of major damage along with everything else in the region and it will be years (decades likely with how our state is at doing things) of rebuilding taking place in the entire LA Metro area. The 15,10, and 5 freeways will all be severed by 25 ft of offset (along with all pipeline/powerline/aqueducts/rail in those corridors) so we'll have a lot to think about for a while.

My personal bet has always been the San Jacinto Fault is going next... during a 100+ heatwave in a long dry summer... and the entire inland empire and san gabriel valley turn into massive firestorms.

Natural Disasters are fun!

 

[TP2000]

Did I say there was damage? No I said thing fell off the shelves, as in I went to Elias' around the corner and saw some merch on the floor. Now it could have been rude guests who threw it on the floor in a panic, but there was stuff on the floor.

Yes, here's video from Elias & Co. during the 7/5/19 earthquake. The chandeliers swaying were the big tipoff an earthquake was happening. The video pan to the shelves shows everything intact.

Plus, not that mentioned it in that thread you found, but my drink did fall off the table at Smoke Jumpers.

Really? It just slid right off the table? That must've been a strong one! Did they get you a refill?

 

[Parteecia]

And now for something completely different
(Easier to view in Firefox reading mode -- coughpaywallcough)

Contributor: We shouldn't treat Disney adults like cultural abominations - Los Angeles Times​

Contributor: We shouldn't treat Disney adults like cultural abominations

Seeking an escape at one of Mickey's parks isn't any worse than checking out by playing video games, watching sports or reading smutty novels.

www.latimes.com

 

[TP2000]

Shaking in Anaheim For July 5, 2019 was in no way violent. Per TP's vids, the shaking had a duration to it, but no one was excited (the normal definition of excited).

View attachment 913619

I always, ALWAYS, used to log on and download my terrifying slightly bemused experiences on that website when I lived there!

I would have had to have offered up my own firsthand experiences that evening of July 5th, 2019 as well. In Villa Park, 7 miles almost due East of Fantasyland, I remember it as a long, low roll. If you'd been walking or doing something active, you wouldn't have felt it or noticed. But sitting still you could feel the slight rolling motion, which told you it was a quake that was very, very far away. Closer quakes are always sharper and more abrupt, even small ones. Plus, there was no noise with that one, it was silent, which also tells you it's far away.

I'm laughing because I miss logging onto that website thing everytime the house creaked in OC! I'd forgotten about that!

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

And now for something completely different
(Easier to view in Firefox reading mode -- coughpaywallcough)

Contributor: We shouldn't treat Disney adults like cultural abominations - Los Angeles Times​

Contributor: We shouldn't treat Disney adults like cultural abominations

Seeking an escape at one of Mickey's parks isn't any worse than checking out by playing video games, watching sports or reading smutty novels.

www.latimes.com

#1) Cultural Abominations.... hah. I mean, yes, it's all fake....... but, I actually really enjoy the fakeness and how it was created (aka Imagineering). We all do it to a certain extent. People do up their backyards, rooms, theme their kitchen or bathroom etc... Disney just takes it several levels further and it's fun to see how they do it.

#2) WHY IN THE HECK DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT READING MODE BEFORE?!?!?!?!? Thank you! I'm going to actually read so many more articles now... (or are they all AI now and worthless?)

 

[Disney Irish]

Yes, here's video from Elias & Co. during the 7/5/19 earthquake. The chandeliers swaying were the big tipoff an earthquake was happening. The video pan to the shelves shows everything intact.





Really? It just slid right off the table? That must've been a strong one! Did they get you a refill?

I don't know what your point is here or really what you're trying to prove. I know what I saw, I was there you weren't (you even found posts of mine to prove I was there), so I really don't care if you believe me or not on things falling off shelves.

And if I want to call that one violent, that is my personal assessment of it. You and others can disagree, again I don't really care. I've experienced MANY earthquakes in my life, I live in California after all, and I consider that one violent. I'm not a seismologists, and as far as I know neither are you. So I can describe it however I want, thank you.

This all started because you went off on same rant about Disneyland not having earthquake retrofits. Again I disagree, as I'm sure they have retrofitted much of the Resort over the last 40 years. But just like these other disagreements we seem to have recently, there is no proof either way, so we can just agree to disagree and move on.