The latest lawsuit

wed050499

Member
Hey everyone,

I finally finished everyone's threads about this topic and honestly, I'm not going to say any more about it. This topic is way out of our hands, even if we're shareholders, frequent Disney visitors, Cast Members (unless you're management, but even then), or just Disney fans. It's kind of like debating about what to do with the land cleared where WTC sat in NYC. Debating is great if there is an ability to compromise, however, in this case, there are so many variables at stake, I don't believe that there can be just among us. Not to say that any of us are incapable of doing so, just that with so many people with so many views of Disney and corporations in general, I think it pointless to try. It will only lead to tension within the group. Now, go on if you like, but myself, I'm just going to keep reading and researching this case.

Thanks everyone,
Brian
 

ACE

New Member
Originally posted by wed050499
Now what if your base is the pentagon, what's half of that salary? I don't know exact figures from the top of my head, but it's not peanuts.

Just a thought,
Brian

Brian,
Your base pay has nothing to do with which base (installation) you're on. The military's pay is set according to a pay chart.

Military Pay Chart

Your base pay is the pay on the chart before any special pay.

:wave: ACE
 

wed050499

Member
Originally posted by acellis_99
Brian,
Your base pay has nothing to do with which base (installation) you're on. The military's pay is set according to a pay chart.

Military Pay Chart

Your base pay is the pay on the chart before any special pay.

:wave: ACE

Alright,

I can admit when I am wrong. As I stated, I am a Cold War and Entertainment Historian, not a military historian and from the numerous offers I've gotten and heard of for officers in the military from my father, other recruiters, officers themselves and such, I came in with a false preconception of the way the military work. Sorry about that.

Brian
 

goofyman

New Member
Ya know what, yes companies are not all peaches and cream. , Disney is abit better than most. BUT lawyers are a problem to all of us and the rising cost of things in this country. anyone who was lucky enough to visit the worlds Fair ( Esp the one in NY) could have drawn this idea. at first I thought that they may have a point because of the large world i the idea, until I remembered ( and it still stands today) the Worlds fair in Ny had a very large world at he center of it.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
True, the Jaffray Plan and EPCOT share some characteristics with the '39 NY World's Fair, most notably the use of a geosphere (or Perisphere, as the NYWF called it) However, in New York the 200-foot tall Perisphere was only half the icon, as right next to it was a 700-foot Washington Monumentesque obelisk called the Trylon.

The most compelling features to me are not so much the features that the Jaffray Plan shares in common with EPCOT but the configuration. Both have the geodesic dome in the center of the entrance to the park and curved building(s) enveloping it (Communicore/Innoventions) The Lagoon forms the center of the park with boats ferrying people across to the various exhibits and countries. The pavillions of the park form a ring around the shore of the lake, and as in a World's Fair these pavillions are sponsored by foreign governments or corporations in return for permanent advertising space. Each country will have scaled-down reproductions of notable landmarks like an Aztec pyramid and the Eiffel Tower. A train on raised tressels travels around the park. Directly opposite from the geodesic dome is an American-themed pavillion and an ampitheatre.

I've heard a lot of people say that too much time has passed for Jaffray's family to be owed any money, but no amount of time will change the reality of who designed the park, and if Disney did in fact steal his designs, they should give him due credit no matter what the law says. If anyone is at fault here it's Disney, for the theft of intellectual property. The only thing Jaffray did wrong was not act agressively enough, which is not the same thing as a forfeit of property rights.
 

goofyman

New Member
Originally posted by Bairstow
True, the Jaffray Plan and EPCOT share some characteristics with the '39 NY World's Fair, most notably the use of a geosphere (or Perisphere, as the NYWF called it) However, in New York the 200-foot tall Perisphere was only half the icon, as right next to it was a 700-foot Washington Monumentesque obelisk called the Trylon.

The most compelling features to me are not so much the features that the Jaffray Plan shares in common with EPCOT but the configuration. Both have the geodesic dome in the center of the entrance to the park and curved building(s) enveloping it (Communicore/Innoventions) The Lagoon forms the center of the park with boats ferrying people across to the various exhibits and countries. The pavillions of the park form a ring around the shore of the lake, and as in a World's Fair these pavillions are sponsored by foreign governments or corporations in return for permanent advertising space. Each country will have scaled-down reproductions of notable landmarks like an Aztec pyramid and the Eiffel Tower. A train on raised tressels travels around the park. Directly opposite from the geodesic dome is an American-themed pavillion and an ampitheatre.

I've heard a lot of people say that too much time has passed for Jaffray's family to be owed any money, but no amount of time will change the reality of who designed the park, and if Disney did in fact steal his designs, they should give him due credit no matter what the law says. If anyone is at fault here it's Disney, for the theft of intellectual property. The only thing Jaffray did wrong was not act agressively enough, which is not the same thing as a forfeit of property rights.

actually you just described (and the one I was talking about) the 63 NY worlds fair. All of which are still there. The globe, the lake and some of the buildings. Just like in the photo....I'm not here to deend anyone one, but come on what does it really resemble?
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Bairstow

The most compelling features to me are not so much the features that the Jaffray Plan shares in common with EPCOT but the configuration. Both have the geodesic dome in the center of the entrance to the park and curved building(s) enveloping it (Communicore/Innoventions) The Lagoon forms the center of the park with boats ferrying people across to the various exhibits and countries. The pavillions of the park form a ring around the shore of the lake, and as in a World's Fair these pavillions are sponsored by foreign governments or corporations in return for permanent advertising space. Each country will have scaled-down reproductions of notable landmarks like an Aztec pyramid and the Eiffel Tower. A train on raised tressels travels around the park. Directly opposite from the geodesic dome is an American-themed pavillion and an ampitheatre.


Except that the Innoventions buildings are actually behind Spaceship Earth both spreading out far behind it rather than a single building that as you said, envelops the shpere in the drawing while streatching out in opposite directoins along two sides of it.

… and I guess that you could say the lagoon forms the center of the park… as long as you take out the half of the park that sits between Spaceship Earth and World Showcase.


Even if the configuration were as close as your description makes it sound, wouldn’t everything you described actually be what Jaffray’s plans had in common with Epcot? You say that the features that his plans share with Epcot aren’t what is compelling to you. Did I miss something?

I’ve always found it amazing that when a person focuses entirely on the similarities of two things, how much more they seem to have in common than when they focus on what is different. It also helps when those similarities are stretched just a bit, don't you think? :)

Also, I find it interesting that the family decides start this whole ordeal less than twelve months after the man’s death during one of Epcot’s most profitable years ever. You see, if they had sued back in the years that Epcot first opened – you know, back when it wasn’t doing so well because they were having trouble defining an audience, it is highly unlikely that they would be rewarded anywhere near the amount of money that they would be likely to get in a settlement or winning suit against Disney today. Funny how that all worked out, no?

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with your sentiment and if they can prove that someone within Disney stole his design they deserve something from it but what that is I don’t know. The biggest difference between his idea and Epcot is how limited his design was. The countries were all to be small models. They wouldn’t have even been large enough to house attractions. As a matter of fact, I’m not aware of there even being any rides in his park besides the train that would apparently go around World Showcase and some boats. There certainly wasn’t any mention of a ride inside the geodesic sphere and in the illustration it certainly doesn’t look like it was to be suspended in the air by support arms. So IF they could prove that Epcot were a derivative of his work, how much should they get? I mean, clearly the creative talents of a lot of other people obviously went into the design of that park.

And that leads to the other big question. How can they prove anything? Again, they have no record of the meeting – just a statement made by someone who has now been dead for two years and a drawing with some similarities. It is enough to make a person wonder but it isn’t exactly proof of anything, is it? I mean, in the end do their motives even really matter? What if they are just after the money? That isn’t even the real issue. The real issue is if they actually stand to win and I honestly don’t see how they could unless they have something more than what they have presented so far.
 
Originally posted by acellis_99
quote:
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Originally posted by acellis_99

Disney is not all sweetness and light. Disney is a ruthless corporation. All they care about is the bottom line. IMHO.

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My quote from above doesn't mean I hate Disney. I think Bill Gates is a ruthless businessman, but I also think he's a genius. Ask around the boards, I never get into discussions about "hating Eisner" or "how bad Disney is being run", etc... But I will say this, If you don't believe "it's all about the bottom line" then you don't know much about big business.

quote:
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Originally posted by acellis_99

How would you feel if this was your family? Just something to think about.

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Just like you assume to know me, you assume to know this man and his family. You don't know what he's done or tried to do or what was happening in his life.

You have obviously misunderstood my remarks about Disney and this case. If I have insulted you in any way then I apologize. I just feel that some folks loyalty to "Walt" and his dream have blinded them to the way business is done in the real world. Walt no longer runs Disney. It's run by a bunch of stock holders who's "dream" is to make money. We all know that the bottom line wasn't what Walt's dream was about.

:wave: ACE

I'm not assuming to know the family in any way! But you asked me how I would feel if I were part of the family, and based upon what we in the public know so far in total, my comments about this question you posed still hold true and are admittedly a bita bit tongue-in-cheek. I don't believe that Disney is immune from any wrong, but with this case I don't by this family's case. You didn't insult me and I hope that I didn't do likewise.
:)
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by MrPromey
Except that the Innoventions buildings are actually behind Spaceship Earth both spreading out far behind it rather than a single building that as you said, envelops the shpere in the drawing while streatching out in opposite directoins along two sides of it.

… and I guess that you could say the lagoon forms the center of the park… as long as you take out the half of the park that sits between Spaceship Earth and World Showcase.


Even if the configuration were as close as your description makes it sound, wouldn’t everything you described actually be what Jaffray’s plans had in common with Epcot? You say that the features that his plans share with Epcot aren’t what is compelling to you. Did I miss something?

Well I did say building(s). Either way in both designs there's an attempt to envelop the sphere and some earlier concepts for EPCOT had communicore situated around Spaceship Earth rather than the offset configuration they settled on.
Yeah, I am referring the World Showcase half of EPCOT, as they was always the section in question. Remember that in the late 70's there were two different proposals for two different theme parks from two different design teams that were combined to form EPCOT.
The reason the configuration is what really jumps out at me as the sticking point is that the separate components of the World Showcase and the Jaffray plan (National pavillions, geodesic sphere, train lines, ampitheatre, etc.) were already standard features of world's fairs and amusement parks. So, EPCOT having these features alone is not in and of itself plaigirism, but arranging them in exactly the same way as Jaffray had planned to do was.
I really don't think the timing of the lawsuit had anything to do with Jaffray's family hiding in the grass like wolves for the park to be in a high season. The main reason is most likely the precedent set by settlement Disney gave All Pro Sports for stealing their design for the Wide World of Sports complex.
I agree that it's going to be quite difficult for the Jaffray party to prove that the World Showcase was created directly or indirectly from Jaffray's designs. According to them, many corporations probably have copies of the sales pitch Jaffray was using during the early sixties, and companies like Kodak and Disney supposedly kept the copyrighted plans and diagrams he was using. If they have access to Disney's earliest concept art for the World Showcase and it resembles Jaffray's plan even more closely, or has notes refrencing the source material I suppose that would clinch the case, but it's doubtful that Disney is going to allow anything like that, if it exists, to see the light of day. After all, this would not have been the first time that Disney has destroyed evidence in a case like this.
 

ACE

New Member
Originally posted by thedisneyfan
You didn't insult me and I hope that I didn't do likewise.
:)

You didn't. We're cool. Like I said before, I love a good debate.
My wife says I just like to argue. :lol:

Be quiet Fievel. :lol:

:wave: ACE
 

SamatBCV

Member
I agree that when it comes to the bottom line, Disney is a business and they will do ALMOST anything to maintain profitability. (I say almost, because on the whole, they have much better business practices than many other big companies.) As was mentioned earlier, Disney lost the Wide World of Sports Case.

However, the fact is (as stated in the original article) that the statute (sp) of limitations has passed by more than double. We're not talking about someone who found out near the end of the time limit here, its 20 years after the park opened and even longer since it was announced. The family admitted it knew when the park first opened.

Then there is the question of them having the money to pursue a lawsuit. I will agree that they may not have had the money until know, but there are other ways to bring up the problem. If the company stole my idea and I didn't have the money to sue, I'd be as big a thorn in the side of the company as possible. Write articles to newspapers, call a congressman, call radio stations and news channels. Show the media any proof that the idea was NOT the company's. In any case, Disney will probably settle.
 

SamatBCV

Member
Not on the subject of this lawsuit, but I'm tired of companies settling dumb lawsuits. It allows people to go with very weak cases and get money for nothing. I think that is what is behind the current lawsuit against the fast food chains, you know, the one about how their food is unhealthy. The guy suing says that the companies never told him and he thought it was healthy. Well, it is healthy in the sense that you can actually live off of it, but I've never heard anyone say that they were going to McDonalds or Burger King to be healthy.
 

goofyman

New Member
Originally posted by SamatBCV
Not on the subject of this lawsuit, but I'm tired of companies settling dumb lawsuits. It allows people to go with very weak cases and get money for nothing. I think that is what is behind the current lawsuit against the fast food chains, you know, the one about how their food is unhealthy. The guy suing says that the companies never told him and he thought it was healthy. Well, it is healthy in the sense that you can actually live off of it, but I've never heard anyone say that they were going to McDonalds or Burger King to be healthy.

This is what I'm talkin about..enough of these dumb lawsuits already..it costs us ALL money in the end!!!!:rolleyes:
 

TURKEY

New Member
Originally posted by SamatBCV
Not on the subject of this lawsuit, but I'm tired of companies settling dumb lawsuits. It allows people to go with very weak cases and get money for nothing. I think that is what is behind the current lawsuit against the fast food chains, you know, the one about how their food is unhealthy. The guy suing says that the companies never told him and he thought it was healthy. Well, it is healthy in the sense that you can actually live off of it, but I've never heard anyone say that they were going to McDonalds or Burger King to be healthy.

Settling a dumb lawsuit can save a lot of money. If you get one of these dumb juries that offer enormous sums of money (see some of the tobaco lawsuits), then it will cost a lot more than a settlement.
 

SamatBCV

Member
Originally posted by turkey leg boy
Settling a dumb lawsuit can save a lot of money. If you get one of these dumb juries that offer enormous sums of money (see some of the tobaco lawsuits), then it will cost a lot more than a settlement.

I understand your point and a lot of companies agree with you, but in the long run if more companies fought these and won, it would help prevent frivolous suits.
 

dreamer

New Member
Originally posted by SamatBCV
I understand your point and a lot of companies agree with you, but in the long run if more companies fought these and won, it would help prevent frivolous suits.


Legal penalties and financial sanctions would prevent frivolous suits. Problem is the lawyers run the government.
 

dreamer

New Member
Originally posted by SamatBCV
However, the fact is (as stated in the original article) that the statute (sp) of limitations has passed by more than double. We're not talking about someone who found out near the end of the time limit here, its 20 years after the park opened and even longer since it was announced. The family admitted it knew when the park first opened.



This reminds me of the case of the guy that invented the device for intermittent windshield wipers. He showed it to the Big 3 and they turned him down and then came out with the exact same thing a couple years later.

He sued and sued and didn't get a thing.
 

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