The Imagineering Story on Disney+

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
Still...Kim Irvine and other Imagineers are afraid of the fans? When fans have complained online, they haven’t called for the heads of Imagineers. They’ve been upset with the higher-ups that truly make these decisions (businessmen who aren’t creatives whose one focus seems to generally be to sell merchandise.) We love Imagineers. Many want to be Imagineers and idolize them.

It’s disheartening that this is what is taken away from the discourse fans have had over the years.

WDI has three “go to” lines:

If a project is successful, “We keep Walt’s magic alive with our creativity and storytelling”

If a project is terrible, “Management cut our budget and our hands were tied”.

If they touch something and make it worse, “Disney fans hate change”.

Rinse, repeat.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
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In the fifth episode, when Kim Irvine mentions how the IASW job made her afraid to walk around where people might recognize her, I believe her.
Maybe I just was oblivious, but I recall most of the anger regarding “it’s a small world” being directed at Marty Sklar, and I think he deserved to get grief. I only remember Irvine being brought up in passing and only because of her mother as a lame justification. The uproar over the changes was also much broader than rabid fans. The changes were covered in The Los Angeles Times and received reactions from members of Blair’s family and even the current creative head of Pixar, Pete Docter.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Still...Kim Irvine and other Imagineers are afraid of the fans? When fans have complained online, they haven’t called for the heads of Imagineers. They’ve been upset with the higher-ups that truly make these decisions (businessmen who aren’t creatives whose one focus seems to generally be to sell merchandise.) We love Imagineers. Many want to be Imagineers and idolize them.

It’s disheartening that this is what is taken away from the discourse fans have had over the years.
No, not every one blames management because there are very much problems with how things turn out that are rooted in the work of Imagineers. Management didn’t force Kim to build new elements that contradicted the proportions and scale of New Orleans Square when Club 33 was expanded.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney Imagineering does not repeat mistakes, except the ones they keep repeating.

In the mid-00s, like 20 years before in the mid-80s, the parks were somehow blamed for the failures of the animation studio.

Very little of Disney’s California Adventure was demolished. Even Buena Vista Street reuses a lot of existing infrastructure and facilities.

Why is it impressive that Toy Story Midway Mania! uses ethernet?

Amazing that Lasseter is included but not quite credited with wanting to change Carland into Cars Land.

They actually showed Tom Morris working on Cars Land!

The franchise mandate predates Cars Land’s opening. It was never open for challenge.

The question of change really is not problem if it is based on a good idea, not forcing the parks to work for people who don’t like them.

Haunted Mansion Holiday being included is a disingenuous and dishonest attempt to justify bad decisions made much later. The attraction was developed by the park and debuted in 2001.

Kim Irvine acknowledges that “it’s a small world” was changed to a game of hide and seek, something she and Disney denies.

The parks had absolutely nothing to do with buying Marvel and Lucasfilm.

Iger did not decide to expand Hong Kong Disneyland. It was demanded by the Government who were still furious over how the park was so much smaller than what was initially announced, a change that occurred while Iger was President and COO.

LPS debuted in 2000. Another little lie intended to credit Iger with something that was already there.

Disneyland Paris was long the number one tourist destination in Europe. It had nothing to do with Ratatouille at the dumpy little park.

Disneyland looking good for the 60th is a non-story, but of course Matt Ouimet’s dramatic turnaround for the 50th would have to be credited to Eisner and not the man who let him go for Jay Rasulo.

Overall, so much sucking up to a guy who didn’t want to keep the parks in the company.
 
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RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney Imagineering does not repeat mistakes, except the ones they keep repeating.

In the mid-00s, like 20 years before in the mid-80s, the parks were somehow blamed for the failures of the animation studio.

Very little of Disney’s California Adventure was demolished. Even Buena Vista Street reuses a lot of existing infrastructure and facilities.

Why is it impressive that Toy Story Midway Mania! uses ethernet?

Amazing that Lassiter is included but not quite credited with wanting to change Carland into Cars Land.

They actually showed Tom Morris working on Cars Land!

The franchise mandate predates Cars Land’s opening. It was never open for challenge.

The question of change really is not problem if it is based on a good idea, not forcing the parks to work for people who don’t like them.

Haunted Mansion Holiday being included is a disingenuous and dishonest attempt to justify bad decisions made much later. The attraction was developed by the park and debuted in 2001.

Kim Irvine acknowledges that “it’s a small world” was changed to a game of hide and seek, something she and Disney denies.

The parks had absolutely nothing to do with buying Marvel and Lucasfilm.

Iger did not decide to expand Hong Kong Disneyland. It was demanded by the Government who were still furious over how the park was so much smaller than what was initially announced, a change that occurred while Iger was President and COO.

LPS debuted in 2000. Another little lie intended to credit Iger with something that was already there.

Disneyland Paris was long the number one tourist destination in Europe. It had nothing to do with Ratatouille at the dumpy little park.

Disneyland looking good for the 60th is a non-story, but of course Matt Ouimet’s dramatic turnaround for the 50th would have to be credited to Eisner and not the man who let him go for Jay Rasulo.

Overall, so much sucking up to a guy who didn’t want to keep the parks in the company.

Mentioning the Mansion holiday overlay was especially egregious as that was lead by Davidson and DL Entertiannent and was a huge issue with WDI because of the turf battle on who owns attractions, WDI or lowly park ops.

It also made WDI look terrible because of how well it was done and how they could do something so extensive at so little cost when WDI can’t do a bathroom remodel for under $5M. That along with the Small World Holiday overlay is a huge issue for WDI so it was odd to see it in the doc and focus (once again) on Kim and redoing the ball head, which is one of WDI’s only contributions to the project.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it is great Davidson got featured so prominently for his work on those and World of Color, but he was working for DL Entertainment and not WDI at the time.

Also laughed out loud at the “ethernet” call out. Wow! Really?!
 
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brb1006

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney Imagineering does not repeat mistakes, except the ones they keep repeating.

In the mid-00s, like 20 years before in the mid-80s, the parks were somehow blamed for the failures of the animation studio.

Very little of Disney’s California Adventure was demolished. Even Buena Vista Street reuses a lot of existing infrastructure and facilities.

Why is it impressive that Toy Story Midway Mania! uses ethernet?

Amazing that Lasseter is included but not quite credited with wanting to change Carland into Cars Land.

They actually showed Tom Morris working on Cars Land!

The franchise mandate predates Cars Land’s opening. It was never open for challenge.

The question of change really is not problem if it is based on a good idea, not forcing the parks to work for people who don’t like them.

Haunted Mansion Holiday being included is a disingenuous and dishonest attempt to justify bad decisions made much later. The attraction was developed by the park and debuted in 2001.

Kim Irvine acknowledges that “it’s a small world” was changed to a game of hide and seek, something she and Disney denies.

The parks had absolutely nothing to do with buying Marvel and Lucasfilm.

Iger did not decide to expand Hong Kong Disneyland. It was demanded by the Government who were still furious over how the park was so much smaller than what was initially announced, a change that occurred while Iger was President and COO.

LPS debuted in 2000. Another little lie intended to credit Iger with something that was already there.

Disneyland Paris was long the number one tourist destination in Europe. It had nothing to do with Ratatouille at the dumpy little park.

Disneyland looking good for the 60th is a non-story, but of course Matt Ouimet’s dramatic turnaround for the 50th would have to be credited to Eisner and not the man who let him go for Jay Rasulo.

Overall, so much sucking up to a guy who didn’t want to keep the parks in the company.
Man it was awkward to see Lasseter in this doc.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
WDI has three “go to” lines:

If a project is successful, “We keep Walt’s magic alive with our creativity and storytelling”

If a project is terrible, “Management cut our budget and our hands were tied”.

If they touch something and make it worse, “Disney fans hate change”.

Rinse, repeat.
Wait, you forgot that DL isn’t a museum.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
Mentioning the Mansion holiday overlay was especially egregious as that was lead by Davidson and DL Entertiannent and was a huge issue with WDI because of the turf battle on who owns attractions, WDI or lowly park ops.

It also made WDI look terrible because of how well it was done and how they could do something so extensive at so little cost when WDI can’t do a bathroom remodel for under $5M. That along with the Small World Holiday overlay is a huge issue for WDI so it was odd to see it in the doc and focus (once again) on Kim and redoing the ball head, which is one of WDI’s only contributions to the project.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it is great Davidson got featured so prominently for his work on those and World of Color, but he was working for DL Entertainment and not WDI at the time.

Also laughed out loud at the “ethernet” call out. Wow! Really?!
Thanks! I knew I remembered that about HMH, and it was indeed used for years to laugh at WDI budgets.

I forgot about the Ethernet mention. With the way the docu uses it as a loose synonym for “internal network,” IBM probably had more than that in 1981. Epcot definitely had more in 1982.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney Imagineering does not repeat mistakes, except the ones they keep repeating.

In the mid-00s, like 20 years before in the mid-80s, the parks were somehow blamed for the failures of the animation studio.

Very little of Disney’s California Adventure was demolished. Even Buena Vista Street reuses a lot of existing infrastructure and facilities.

Why is it impressive that Toy Story Midway Mania! uses ethernet?

Amazing that Lasseter is included but not quite credited with wanting to change Carland into Cars Land.

They actually showed Tom Morris working on Cars Land!

The franchise mandate predates Cars Land’s opening. It was never open for challenge.

The question of change really is not problem if it is based on a good idea, not forcing the parks to work for people who don’t like them.

Haunted Mansion Holiday being included is a disingenuous and dishonest attempt to justify bad decisions made much later. The attraction was developed by the park and debuted in 2001.

Kim Irvine acknowledges that “it’s a small world” was changed to a game of hide and seek, something she and Disney denies.

The parks had absolutely nothing to do with buying Marvel and Lucasfilm.

Iger did not decide to expand Hong Kong Disneyland. It was demanded by the Government who were still furious over how the park was so much smaller than what was initially announced, a change that occurred while Iger was President and COO.

LPS debuted in 2000. Another little lie intended to credit Iger with something that was already there.

Disneyland Paris was long the number one tourist destination in Europe. It had nothing to do with Ratatouille at the dumpy little park.

Disneyland looking good for the 60th is a non-story, but of course Matt Ouimet’s dramatic turnaround for the 50th would have to be credited to Eisner and not the man who let him go for Jay Rasulo.

Overall, so much sucking up to a guy who didn’t want to keep the parks in the company.
—and Eisner only recognized the problems after guests died.

Fans also forget DL needed its parkwide renovations because a decade of poor maintenance had led to termite infestations and rotted buildings.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney Imagineering does not repeat mistakes, except the ones they keep repeating.

In the mid-00s, like 20 years before in the mid-80s, the parks were somehow blamed for the failures of the animation studio.

Very little of Disney’s California Adventure was demolished. Even Buena Vista Street reuses a lot of existing infrastructure and facilities.

Why is it impressive that Toy Story Midway Mania! uses ethernet?

Amazing that Lasseter is included but not quite credited with wanting to change Carland into Cars Land.

They actually showed Tom Morris working on Cars Land!

The franchise mandate predates Cars Land’s opening. It was never open for challenge.

The question of change really is not problem if it is based on a good idea, not forcing the parks to work for people who don’t like them.

Haunted Mansion Holiday being included is a disingenuous and dishonest attempt to justify bad decisions made much later. The attraction was developed by the park and debuted in 2001.

Kim Irvine acknowledges that “it’s a small world” was changed to a game of hide and seek, something she and Disney denies.

The parks had absolutely nothing to do with buying Marvel and Lucasfilm.

Iger did not decide to expand Hong Kong Disneyland. It was demanded by the Government who were still furious over how the park was so much smaller than what was initially announced, a change that occurred while Iger was President and COO.

LPS debuted in 2000. Another little lie intended to credit Iger with something that was already there.

Disneyland Paris was long the number one tourist destination in Europe. It had nothing to do with Ratatouille at the dumpy little park.

Disneyland looking good for the 60th is a non-story, but of course Matt Ouimet’s dramatic turnaround for the 50th would have to be credited to Eisner and not the man who let him go for Jay Rasulo.

Overall, so much sucking up to a guy who didn’t want to keep the parks in the company.
Yeah, I was confused about that Cars mention too. They bent the facts to imply a ride was already being developed before the Pixar movie, but Cars came out in 2006 and was developed for years before that. RSR opened in 2012, almost twenty years after Test Track. WDI never considered anything other than Cars, and Test Track was always the system.

But again: yay, Iger saves the day? Pixar saved it? Iger recognized the Honk Kong parade was predominantly Pixar and encouraged TSM and RSR? I think?

I can’t keep track of the convoluted story this episode smashed together.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Am I correct in just now realizing that the nondescript roller coaster themed to India or whatever was never mentioned?

You are correct!

Also was the idea of adding Johnny Depp to Pirates Eisner's too? It was implemented in 2006, but was the decision made before he left?
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Walt Disney Imagineering does not repeat mistakes, except the ones they keep repeating.

In the mid-00s, like 20 years before in the mid-80s, the parks were somehow blamed for the failures of the animation studio.

Very little of Disney’s California Adventure was demolished. Even Buena Vista Street reuses a lot of existing infrastructure and facilities.

Why is it impressive that Toy Story Midway Mania! uses ethernet?

Amazing that Lasseter is included but not quite credited with wanting to change Carland into Cars Land.

They actually showed Tom Morris working on Cars Land!

The franchise mandate predates Cars Land’s opening. It was never open for challenge.

The question of change really is not problem if it is based on a good idea, not forcing the parks to work for people who don’t like them.

Haunted Mansion Holiday being included is a disingenuous and dishonest attempt to justify bad decisions made much later. The attraction was developed by the park and debuted in 2001.

Kim Irvine acknowledges that “it’s a small world” was changed to a game of hide and seek, something she and Disney denies.

The parks had absolutely nothing to do with buying Marvel and Lucasfilm.

Iger did not decide to expand Hong Kong Disneyland. It was demanded by the Government who were still furious over how the park was so much smaller than what was initially announced, a change that occurred while Iger was President and COO.

LPS debuted in 2000. Another little lie intended to credit Iger with something that was already there.

Disneyland Paris was long the number one tourist destination in Europe. It had nothing to do with Ratatouille at the dumpy little park.

Disneyland looking good for the 60th is a non-story, but of course Matt Ouimet’s dramatic turnaround for the 50th would have to be credited to Eisner and not the man who let him go for Jay Rasulo.

Overall, so much sucking up to a guy who didn’t want to keep the parks in the company.

I'd love to copy and paste this throughout this forum, but most Disney fans wouldn't care about these details. They find comfort in the spin and revisionist history because it makes them feel confident about having the parks in the Bobs control.
 

DoleWhipDrea

Well-Known Member
...was the idea of adding Johnny Depp to Pirates Eisner's too? It was implemented in 2006, but was the decision made before he left?

Haven’t heard who officially decided that a move tie-in needed to be implemented, but here’s some background:

Eisner was not on board for making Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl. Hollywood hadn’t done well with any pirate film in recent memory, and he hated the idea even more of trying to turn one into a blockbuster with big names that would require big paychecks. There was a lot of fighting between the creatives and studio heads, which led to strained relationships. Eisner was very, very surprised when the movie became such a big hit.

Pirates debuted summer of 2003. The financial success was a major win that Disney desperately needed with their live action films, as up until that point, that department had underperformed for several years. Eisner had been (and continued) dealing with a lot of drama at Disney. Many poor, costly decisions had been made over the years. That fall, Roy E. Disney quit the board and got together with Stanley Gold to start the Save Disney campaign. In March 2004, Disney’s shareholders let Eisner and the rest of the board know that they weren’t happy with his performance, which eventually led to him losing various titles and therefore a lot of his power at the company, to finally his early departure in 2005.

The film tie-ins debuted in the parks in June (DL) and July (MK) 2006 to coincide with the opening of Dead Man’s Chest, not long after Bob Iger replaced Michael Eisner, and the rides were closed for only a few months. Iger had a lot that he wanted to focus on, and the first priority was to fix the relationship with Pixar. He has said that he generally likes to have whoever is the head of parks and resorts mostly in charge of that and not micromanage them. Whoever was in this position before Tom Staggs may have been the person to suggest the update, but I can’t seem to find their name. On the Dead Man’s Chest DVD extras, there was a behind the scenes feature that went into the making of the changes. The one thing I do remember is Disney saying that guests kept asking why Captain Jack Sparrow wasn’t in the ride.

The person from Disney that made an official statement, though, was Tom Fitzgerald. From an article I found:

"Enhancing the classic Pirates attractions with new characters and new technology will ensure their relevance and place in Disney theme parks as timeless adventures," said Tom Fitzgerald, senior creative executive for Walt Disney Imagineering said in a statement. "We're adding a layer of storytelling from the films to the attraction while retaining all the familiar elements that make it vibrant and exciting for every age group."

This all took place during a lot of changes at the company. It’s very possible that someone wanted to impress their new boss.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Not surprised that nobody discussed how Shanghai Disneyland was supposed to have minimal involvement from Walt Disney Imagineering.

They make the use of gold leaf sound like something special and extravagant done for Shanghai Disneyland. When considered over its lifespan, it can often be a better choice than paint and its use was not new or unique to the park.

Weis is rather explicit that its TRON or Space Mountain.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe was barely a thing (three films released) and the acquisition of Marvel only recently complete when the attractions for Shanghai Disneyland were decided by the summer of 2010. But who knows, maybe Disney really did consider The Incredible Hulk Coaster for Shanghai Disneyland.

Wow, they actually referred to Flight of Passage as "Soarin' Over Pandora".

Disney isn't proud that Chapek came in and wanted something fast and cheap to impress his boss?

Of course rides are planned out in detail. That's how you know what to build.

Imagineers must be innovative, so long as they don't think outside the box office.
 
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