The Good, The Bad, The Weird Official Muppet thread

[Disney Irish]

I wonder if things will improve for the Muppets when Iger is shown the door.

This seems to be the answer for everyone these days, "just wait until Iger leaves and x will get better".

As much as everyone pretty much agrees that its time for him to leave, and he will sometime in the next 18 months, Iger doesn't control the tastes of the consumer. As much as everyone here might love the Muppets, they may not have the same love by consumers universally. The last two movies certainly didn't indicate a universal love by movie goers. And the last couple tv shows certainly weren't ratings gold either.

So unless somehow consumers all of a sudden realize they have Muppets nostalgia just because Iger is no longer in-charge, I have doubts anything will change much. Sure, the new powers-that-be may decide to try again in the future, but unless its all of a sudden an about face with consumers, they'll do about the same as before, ie certain segments will love it but everyone else will ignore it.

And lets not forget that even under Iger its not like Muppets have been completely ignored and allowed to become completely dormant, they are getting new representation in the Parks, so while losing a land they will still be represented by the Rock ’n’ Roller Coaster overlay.

 

[DKampy]

This seems to be the answer for everyone these days, "just wait until Iger leaves and x will get better".

As much as everyone pretty much agrees that its time for him to leave, and he will sometime in the next 18 months, Iger doesn't control the tastes of the consumer. As much as everyone here might love the Muppets, they may not have the same love by consumers universally. The last two movies certainly didn't indicate a universal love by movie goers. And the last couple tv shows certainly weren't ratings gold either.

So unless somehow consumers all of a sudden realize they have Muppets nostalgia just because Iger is no longer in-charge, I have doubts anything will change much. Sure, the new powers-that-be may decide to try again in the future, but unless its all of a sudden an about face with consumers, they'll do about the same as before, ie certain segments will love it but everyone else will ignore it.

And lets not forget that even under Iger its not like Muppets have been completely ignored and allowed to become completely dormant, they are getting new representation in the Parks, so while losing a land they will still be represented by the Rock ’n’ Roller Coaster overlay.

It seems to me that Iger gave the muppets plenty of chances to appeal to the masses… 2 theatrical Movies and several Disney +/ ABC shows in varying degrees of quality…, the audience does not appear to be there… perhaps it is time for us to face facts that The Muppets are a niche market that appeals to a very specific generation to which I include myself apart of

 

[Brer Panther]

And lets not forget that even under Iger its not like Muppets have been completely ignored and allowed to become completely dormant, they are getting new representation in the Parks, so while losing a land they will still be represented by the Rock ’n’ Roller Coaster overlay.

We're only getting that to "satisfy" those of us who are annoyed about MuppetVision closing.

It seems to me that Iger gave the muppets plenty of chances to appeal to the masses… 2 theatrical Movies and several Disney +/ ABC shows in varying degrees of quality…, the audience does not appear to be there… perhaps it is time for us to face facts that The Muppets are a niche market that appeals to a very specific generation to which I include myself apart of

The 2011 movie did well (although it likely would have done even better had it not been up against the third Chipmunks movie). Muppets Most Wanted flopped because A) it was up against films like Divergent or whatever it was called and B) it sucked.

The ABC series, which we were honestly lucky to get at all, had everything going against it. From the way it was described in press releases, people got the wrong idea and assumed that it was going to be a televised Avenue Q with actual Muppet characters, with lots of cursing and "raunchy" humor. So they didn't watch it, resulting in crappy ratings and it eventually getting cancelled.

As for the Disney Plus stuff, if people aren't watching Muppets Now it's because Muppets Now was unfunny crap. I thought Muppets Haunted Mansion was good. Then we got the Electric Mayhem show, which was great when it was focusing on the Electric Mayhem but spent way too much time on the boring human characters. It seems pretty well-liked from what I've seen, but Disney still canned it after one season.

The solution, I feel, is to make Muppets productions that are actually good. So, not Muppets Most Wanted or Muppets Now.

 

[Disney Irish]

We're only getting that to "satisfy" those of us who are annoyed about MuppetVision closing.

They didn't have to do anything though did they, they could have evicted them completely from the Parks like they did on the West Coast. So lets not pretend like Disney is doing "you" any favors here. They see that "enough" continue to love the Muppets to warrant a ride overlay, but no longer "enough" to warrant an entire land.

The 2011 movie did well (although it likely would have done even better had it not been up against the third Chipmunks movie). Muppets Most Wanted flopped because A) it was up against films like Divergent or whatever it was called and B) it sucked.

The ABC series, which we were honestly lucky to get at all, had everything going against it. From the way it was described in press releases, people got the wrong idea and assumed that it was going to be a televised Avenue Q with actual Muppet characters, with lots of cursing and "raunchy" humor. So they didn't watch it, resulting in crappy ratings and it eventually getting cancelled.

As for the Disney Plus stuff, if people aren't watching Muppets Now it's because Muppets Now was unfunny crap. I thought Muppets Haunted Mansion was good. Then we got the Electric Mayhem show, which was great when it was focusing on the Electric Mayhem but spent way too much time on the boring human characters. It seems pretty well-liked from what I've seen, but Disney still canned it after one season.

The solution, I feel, is to make Muppets productions that are actually good. So, not Muppets Most Wanted or Muppets Now.

Neither Muppets Haunted Mansion special nor the Electric Mayhem show trended in the top 10 at any point during their respective runs. And the ABC show also didn't produce a lot of ratings either, whether for the reasons you listed or because the Muppets just aren't a huge draw for a majority of the public. So just like any program that doesn't get ratings, they got cancelled. I

And with regards to the movies, The 2011 "well enough" in this case equals to $160M WW and so it did better than breakeven against its $45M budget but not by a huge margin, and as I'm told around here in the movie forums isn't going to cut it in terms of getting sequels and such. Also it had almost 4 weeks at the box office alone before Chipmunks released, so it had plenty of time. And yet the Muppets still got a sequel anyways despite all that, but it did lower box office then the 2011 movie, $79M WW on a $55M budget, so didn't even breakeven. And that is why no other movies have been produced so far.

Basically for as much as people here love the Muppets, it just seems like they are are the minority as the Muppets appear to be out of favor with the majority of the public right now. Maybe with a "better" movie they'd do better, but that means having to take a risk on something that isn't guaranteed money. And right now Disney isn't going to do all that as they need more guaranteed hits, and even the ones that should be aren't hitting right now because the box office isn't working like it was back in 2011.

So I don't predict much new Muppet content outside of a D+ special for the foreseeable future.

 

[erasure fan1]

The 2011 "well enough" in this case equals to $160M WW and so it did better than breakeven against its $45M budget but not by a huge margin, and as I'm told around here in the movie forums isn't going to cut it in terms of getting sequels and such.

You are told that for sure. The problem with this statement is, no one is really saying that about a film with a budget that low. I agree with what you are saying if it was specified as 150mil plus tent pole films. When Disney spends 45mil on a film, they aren't expecting a billion $ take. If they are, shame on them. But when they spend 200 to 300mil? There's no convincing me they aren't looking for a much bigger bang than the Muppets.

Maybe with a "better" movie they'd do better, but that means having to take a risk on something that isn't guaranteed money. And right now Disney isn't going to do all that as they need more guaranteed hits, and even the ones that should be aren't hitting right now because the box office isn't working like it was back in 2011.

For sure. The Muppets are nowhere close to guaranteed money. I'd push back on they'd need to take a risk to make a better muppet project. Muppet projects should be very budget friendly. what you need is creators and writers who understand the Muppets. Not throwing money at it like Disney tends to do.

They had the right idea with mayhem. Yes, it didn't break any viewing records but to be fair there's very few D+ shows that really break through. So you had a great jumping off point to try and get some momentum. It was largely very well received and in the order of D+ show budgets it had to be a drop in the bucket. And if it wasn't that's 100% on Disney not the Muppets. From every angle I look at the muppets from, it all points back to Disney as the big problem. It will never be the blockbuster ip that Disney would like. But it can be a whole lot more than what they have done thus far.

 

[Disney Irish]

You are told that for sure. The problem with this statement is, no one is really saying that about a film with a budget that low. I agree with what you are saying if it was specified as 150mil plus tent pole films. When Disney spends 45mil on a film, they aren't expecting a billion $ take. If they are, shame on them. But when they spend 200 to 300mil? There's no convincing me they aren't looking for a much bigger bang than the Muppets.

Where did I claim they were looking for a billion $ take? No where. All I said was that a small take like ~$47M in profit which 2011 Muppet's got is probably not going to cut it these days. And certainly not the ~$45M loss they took on Most Wanted a couple years later.

For sure. The Muppets are nowhere close to guaranteed money. I'd push back on they'd need to take a risk to make a better muppet project. Muppet projects should be very budget friendly. what you need is creators and writers who understand the Muppets. Not throwing money at it like Disney tends to do.

They had the right idea with mayhem. Yes, it didn't break any viewing records but to be fair there's very few D+ shows that really break through. So you had a great jumping off point to try and get some momentum. It was largely very well received and in the order of D+ show budgets it had to be a drop in the bucket. And if it wasn't that's 100% on Disney not the Muppets. From every angle I look at the muppets from, it all points back to Disney as the big problem. It will never be the blockbuster ip that Disney would like. But it can be a whole lot more than what they have done thus far.

Except as we know Disney is looking for blockbuster IPs. All one has to do is look at two things -

1. What IPs are they adding and which are they removing in the Parks.
2. What IPs are they greenlighting for movies/TV shows and what have been cancelled.

Outside of the Rock ’n’ Roller Coaster overlay Disney isn't adding more Muppets into the Parks, for now. And there is no slated movies or TV shows on the horizon, again for now.

These are what Disney values, talking about anything else is just really futile as its not looking at it with a business hat. Which I find funny, because when its something that some of you all dislike you'll spout all kinds of business statistics about why its failing and should be jettisoned from Disney. But when its something you love/enjoy those business statistics don't matter anymore and disappear.

So if we're looking at it from a pure business standpoint, and only that, Disney is keeping the Muppet IP alive but barely on life support at the moment. If Adam Goldberg can get another project off the ground that may change, but for now that is the way it is. And note I say all this as being someone who likes the Muppets, so I'm not doing this from any place of dislike or dissatisfaction.

 

[erasure fan1]

Where did I claim they were looking for a billion $ take? No where. All I said was that a small take like ~$47M in profit which 2011 Muppet's got is probably not going to cut it these days. And certainly not the ~$45M loss they took on Most Wanted a couple years later.

I said it, not you. The point was you said people say that it isn't enough profit. And I agree if it's supposed to be a 200mil blockbuster. But no one thinks a 45mil movie that does most likely over 100% profit isn't enough.

Except as we know Disney is looking for blockbuster IPs. All one has to do is look at two things -

1. What IPs are they adding and which are they removing in the Parks.
2. What IPs are they greenlighting for movies/TV shows and what have been cancelled.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

These are what Disney values, talking about anything else is just really futile as its not looking at it with a business hat. Which I find funny, because when its something that some of you all dislike you'll spout all kinds of business statistics about why its failing and should be jettisoned from Disney. But when its something you love/enjoy those business statistics don't matter anymore and disappear.

It's not futile as that's what this forum is for. Discussion. I don't think the second part is a fair statement. Because again, we're not talking about a 200mil budget for a Muppet movie. You can't really compare the business philosophy of a 250mil budget film to a 45mil film.

So if we're looking at it from a pure business standpoint, and only that, Disney is keeping the Muppet IP alive but barely on life support at the moment. If Adam Goldberg can get another project off the ground that may change, but for now that is the way it is. And note I say all this as being someone who likes the Muppets, so I'm not doing this from any place of dislike or dissatisfaction.

That's just it, they are keeping it alive, I completely agree. I don't think you're trying to be a muppet hater like some panthers on this site. My contention from the start has been, how do we know this all the Muppets can do? I've see everything they've done with Disney, how they've handled merch, in general and in the parks. And it's been mostly terrible. And when they seem to do something good, they proceed to step on a rake. I stayed at Saratoga for a week last month. No merch aside from 3 pins. And 2 were so stupid looking I didn't buy them. And I buy muppet stuff like a 12yr old buys Pokemon. I'm not saying the muppets need to be some headline ip. But I can't agree with anything they've done because of the lack of effort they've given.

 

[Brer Panther]

They see that "enough" continue to love the Muppets to warrant a ride overlay, but no longer "enough" to warrant an entire land.

Did the Muppets EVER have an "entire land"? For a few years it had an attraction, a gift shop, a retheme of Pizza Planet, and some themed toilets. At best that's a mini-land. And the land wound up being renamed from Muppet Courtyard to Grand Avenue pretty quickly, so there's that.

And yet the Muppets still got a sequel anyways despite all that, but it did lower box office then the 2011 movie, $79M WW on a $55M budget

Yes, because A) it was up against Divergent and B) it sucked.

but that means having to take a risk on something that isn't guaranteed money. And right now Disney isn't going to do all that

True dat. Iger hates taking risks.

 

[Disney Irish]

I said it, not you. The point was you said people say that it isn't enough profit. And I agree if it's supposed to be a 200mil blockbuster. But no one thinks a 45mil movie that does most likely over 100% profit isn't enough.

Since we don't know the goals of any movie, we can't for sure say that would be "good enough" for a Muppet movie. For any of us it might be "good enough" but for Disney they may be looking for more, especially these days.

It's not futile as that's what this forum is for. Discussion. I don't think the second part is a fair statement. Because again, we're not talking about a 200mil budget for a Muppet movie. You can't really compare the business philosophy of a 250mil budget film to a 45mil film.

Not saying the discussion is futile. Saying that talking about it without any business hat on is futile, as then its just emotion.

That's just it, they are keeping it alive, I completely agree. I don't think you're trying to be a muppet hater like some panthers on this site. My contention from the start has been, how do we know this all the Muppets can do? I've see everything they've done with Disney, how they've handled merch, in general and in the parks. And it's been mostly terrible. And when they seem to do something good, they proceed to step on a rake. I stayed at Saratoga for a week last month. No merch aside from 3 pins. And 2 were so stupid looking I didn't buy them. And I buy muppet stuff like a 12yr old buys Pokemon. I'm not saying the muppets need to be some headline ip. But I can't agree with anything they've done because of the lack of effort they've given.

Well Disney has internal numbers, and if Muppets was a hot seller I'm sure they would be doing more with it. So how can we know this is all Muppets can do? Well this is all Disney is doing with them for now. So again just using our business hat, we can say that Muppets is likely a niche market that has a ceiling currently in how much it sells, and that is what Disney is doing with it for now.

 

[Disney Irish]

Did the Muppets EVER have an "entire land"? For a few years it had an attraction, a gift shop, a retheme of Pizza Planet, and some themed toilets. At best that's a mini-land. And the land wound up being renamed from Muppet Courtyard to Grand Avenue pretty quickly, so there's that.

Well even if you want to call the Courtyard just a mini-land, that is much more than many other IPs have gotten over the years. Many Disney IPs don't even get an attraction, and Muppets have had multiple over the years.

Yes, because A) it was up against Divergent and B) it sucked.

Different audiences though. If anything it went up against Mr. Peabody & Sherman.

True dat. Iger hates taking risks.

This isn't just an Iger thing, its all of Hollywood. So I doubt any new CEO would be any different.

 

[erasure fan1]

Since we don't know the goals of any movie, we can't for sure say that would be "good enough" for a Muppet movie. For any of us it might be "good enough" but for Disney they may be looking for more, especially these days.

I'm sure Disney is looking for more, that's the point. Iger for starters is no fan of the Muppets. The fans won't gobble up what very little crap they are shoveling and you can tell iger hates that. They want minimal effort and huge returns. The only reason the muppets are going to RR is it's going to be an ULTRA cheap makeover to appear like they care for the hardcore fans. I'll be very curious when the retheme opens, how much they support it? Will it be the same lackluster merch they've had the last ten plus years? Or will they actually care? My bets on a few things for the opening few months or so and then it's back to the same ol same ol.

Well Disney has internal numbers, and if Muppets was a hot seller I'm sure they would be doing more with it.

So if they only sold dog turds, with Mickey ears, and they don't sell. Does that mean Mickey doesn't sell? That's obviously over exaggerated but what they've done is terrible. So all I'm saying is that who cares about Internal numbers because they aren't a true representation of potential. It only really represents how bad Disney has done. But to them it's, we did all this for the fans and they don't care. Obviously it's the Muppet ip, because sure can't be us.

 

[Brer Panther]

Different audiences though. If anything it went up against Mr. Peabody & Sherman.

That was a box office bomb too, though (and also not a particularly good movie). Wasn't Frozen still in theaters at the time, too?

because sure can't be us.

From the same Disney that said, "Our new hand-drawn animated film that we gave a lousy release date up against Avatar and the second Chipmunks movie isn't making more money than that? Clearly, people must not like hand-drawn animation anymore."

 

[Disney Irish]

I'm sure Disney is looking for more, that's the point.

If that is the whole point then I'm not sure why you think more should be done. If there is a ceiling and that ceiling is lower than what Disney is looking for out of any IP, then why would it be expected that they do more with it.

Again we have to think with our business hats here, not our emotional attachment to the IP as a fan.

Iger for starters is no fan of the Muppets.

Maybe you know something I don't. But I get no indication that Iger isn't a fan. I think this honestly comes down to numbers with him, as it should for any CEO who makes financial decisions.

The fans won't gobble up what very little crap they are shoveling and you can tell iger hates that. They want minimal effort and huge returns.

Well again if the numbers were there for the "good" stuff then it would be a property that would be higher up on the focus of the Parks and Studios. For example you said the Mayhem was a good start, but outside of positive reviews it didn't get much else. It didn't trend and it didn't get ratings, the two metrics that Disney looks for in terms of content future prospects. If it had done either I expect we'd be getting a second season of Mayhem, and more Muppets in general.

The only reason the muppets are going to RR is it's going to be an ULTRA cheap makeover to appear like they care for the hardcore fans.

As I mentioned before, they didn't have to do anything at all though. So they aren't actually doing anyone any favors here. Its still an expense, even if its a "cheap" one in comparison to a new land or attraction.

Also the actual "ultra cheap" move would have been to keep RnR just as it was. I can't imagine the contract with Aerosmith was more expense than this makeover, in fact I'm pretty much guaranteeing it was cheaper than this makeover.

I'll be very curious when the retheme opens, how much they support it? Will it be the same lackluster merch they've had the last ten plus years? Or will they actually care? My bets on a few things for the opening few months or so and then it's back to the same ol same ol.

Dunno, I'm not really a merch person when it comes to Muppets. But I expect it'll be the same type of merch they do with most new attractions for awhile, that end up getting scaled back once they find out what will be sellers.

So if they only sold dog turds, with Mickey ears, and they don't sell. Does that mean Mickey doesn't sell? That's obviously over exaggerated but what they've done is terrible. So all I'm saying is that who cares about Internal numbers because they aren't a true representation of potential. It only really represents how bad Disney has done. But to them it's, we did all this for the fans and they don't care. Obviously it's the Muppet ip, because sure can't be us.

So what was Muppets doing before Henson Company sold it to Disney? From what I recall they were dormant even over there, no new content since Muppets from Space in 1999 which bombed at the box office. The sale was suppose to revive the property, but I think its been overestimated just how many fans there are in the 21st century modern digital era.

Again lets use our business hats here and not think as a fan. So if internal numbers don't matter as according to you they don't tell a true representation of potential (which I don't believe by the way), then how is any company suppose to gauge where to invest its resources? Every company does some sort of research, even in Hollywood, on what product to produce to gauge if there is even consumer to buy. And if again there appears to be a ceiling then why invest much more than that ceiling?

I just don't know where you see this "potential", as it just don't seem to be there.

 

[Disney Irish]

That was a box office bomb too, though (and also not a particularly good movie). Wasn't Frozen still in theaters at the time, too?

Well Peabody still got more than Most Wanted.

Frozen was just about out of theater at that point, that was the last weekend in only 1000 theaters before it completely scaled back to only a couple hundred theaters. So it wasn't doing any real business when Most Wanted came out.

 

[erasure fan1]

If that is the whole point then I'm not sure why you think more should be done. If there is a ceiling and that ceiling is lower than what Disney is looking for out of any IP, then why would it be expected that they do more with it.

Because I believe Disney is wrong.

Maybe you know something I don't. But I get no indication that Iger isn't a fan. I think this honestly comes down to numbers with him, as it should for any CEO who makes financial decisions.

I get that. But once again, mostly crap. It's hard to get on board with any ceo when they're selling turd sandwiches.

For example you said the Mayhem was a good start, but outside of positive reviews it didn't get much else. It didn't trend and it didn't get ratings, the two metrics that Disney looks for in terms of content future prospects.

Well it did also spawn a number one album. And it didn't get the viewing numbers, true. Neither did a whole lot of star wars and marvel. Yet here we are with no shortage of that coming.

I just don't know where you see this "potential", as it just don't seem to be there.

Here is where you are missing it. You can't judge potential on 85% low quality content. We've seen The Muppets make over 100% profit, we've seen Muppets mayhem be a critical success with fans and critics and produce a number one album. We've seen web shorts with 200mil views. We know the Muppets need only very reasonable budgets. And to take a phrase from you, producing Muppets stuff would be just a rounding error for Disney. So it's more of a why not? At least try to put out some consistently good content before you conclude it can't make any money.

So what was Muppets doing before Henson Company sold it to Disney? From what I recall they were dormant even over there

to be fair Henson died in 90 and he wanted the Muppets to live on with Disney. They did the Christmas carol, an absolute classic. Then they did treasure island, good, then muppets from space, bad. Plus Muppets tonight, so not exactly dormant.

 

[Disney Irish]

Because I believe Disney is wrong.

Fair, but you're also not a decision maker. So its easy to sit here and say something has potential when you have nothing on the line. Its a whole different matter when you're in the chair making decisions on whether to allocate resources that then have to produce results.

I get that. But once again, mostly crap. It's hard to get on board with any ceo when they're selling turd sandwiches.

If you did get that then you'd really understand why decisions are made the way they are, whether you agree or not.

Well it did also spawn a number one album. And it didn't get the viewing numbers, true. Neither did a whole lot of star wars and marvel. Yet here we are with no shortage of that coming.

Except even with its low performing shows most of them got higher than Mayhem.

Plus you cannot compare the earning power potential of either Star Wars or Marvel to Muppets, its not even comparable, as you're talking about the two highest grossing franchises on the planet by a HUGE margin. So lets not even go there.

Here is where you are missing it. You can't judge potential on 85% low quality content. We've seen The Muppets make over 100% profit, we've seen Muppets mayhem be a critical success with fans and critics and produce a number one album. We've seen web shorts with 200mil views. We know the Muppets need only very reasonable budgets. And to take a phrase from you, producing Muppets stuff would be just a rounding error for Disney. So it's more of a why not? At least try to put out some consistently good content before you conclude it can't make any money.

With all due respect, this comment tells me you are still thinking with your fan hat and not a business hat. As I'm not missing anything. I understand that you believe there is potential, but there is zero indication that it exists other than your belief. If you have data to show this please provide it and I'll be happy to have my opinion changed. But until then I'm basing my opinion from the actual data we do have which is box office, critic/audience scores, and viewership ratings, which is the same data that Disney would use to make decisions.

Now you can disagree with those decisions and think Disney should swing for the fences, and as a fan I can understand that. But as mentioned above, its easy to say that sitting here when you don't have to actually be accountable for those decisions.

to be fair Henson died in 90 and he wanted the Muppets to live on with Disney. They did the Christmas carol, an absolute classic. Then they did treasure island, good, then muppets from space, bad. Plus Muppets tonight, so not exactly dormant.

I said Henson Company and not Jim Henson for a reason, because I'm very aware that Jim had already died 14 years prior to the acquisition of the brand by Disney.

I honestly believe that if the Henson Company thought they could do more with the Muppets they wouldn't have sold them to Disney. Because even if Jim had wanted the Muppets to live on with Disney, the Henson Company didn't end up selling for another 14 years after his death. So I think even the Henson Company knew by the time they sold that as a brand that the Muppets had a ceiling in this new modern digital age post-2000. They had been falling out of favor with modern audiences, and that with the low box office of Muppets from Space (even with positive critics and audience scores) that they weren't going to be able to take the brand any further. Now Disney did revive it for a time, but I think once nostalgia wore off reality set in, and we are where we are now.

I do believe that Disney will try to produce new Muppet content in the future. I just think its on a pause for awhile as they let the brand simmer to build back up the nostalgia factor again. We'll see if that day ever comes if there is a large audience for it, but until then we just have to wait.

 

[Brer Panther]

From what I recall they were dormant even over there, no new content since Muppets from Space in 1999 which bombed at the box office.

They were making crappy TV specials. Remember It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie? I'm pretty sure Muppets Wizard of Oz was in production when Disney bought the Muppets too.

 

[Disney Irish]

They were making crappy TV specials. Remember It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie? I'm pretty sure Muppets Wizard of Oz was in production when Disney bought the Muppets too.

What I mean by dormant I mean in terms of movies which is where most people know the Muppets from, rather than the specials. Even now Disney is still doing stuff with them even if not producing much actual content people see like movies. For example they just did a Muppets collab with CrunchLabs.

So bottom line is that just like Henson I don’t think Disney knows what to do with them in this digital era. As it’s an analog property that many don’t see fitting into a digital world due to it being seen as outdated.

 

[erasure fan1]

Except even with its low performing shows most of them got higher than Mayhem.

Plus you cannot compare the earning power potential of either Star Wars or Marvel to Muppets, its not even comparable, as you're talking about the two highest grossing franchises on the planet by a HUGE margin. So lets not even go there.

Of course marvel and star wars aren't close to the Muppets. The point is they are willing to flush $230mil down the toilet on something that was absolutely terrible. But muppets mayhem somehow broke the Camels back? I guess we don't know the budget. But if was crazy, once again Disneys fault, not the ip.

With all due respect, this comment tells me you are still thinking with your fan hat and not a business hat.

Of course I'm looking at it through a fans eye too. But from a business perspective, would another person come in as ceo and look at a property and assess why said ip didn't do well? Maybe the muppets are dead, and they will never be anything more than spokesman for booking.com. But I can't confidently say that when the majority of what they've done is bad.

I understand that you believe there is potential, but there is zero indication that it exists other than your belief. If you have data to show this please provide it and I'll be happy to have my opinion changed.

I gave that information.

Now you can disagree with those decisions and think Disney should swing for the fences, and as a fan I can understand that.

Right here, that's what you're missing. I've not once said they should swing for the fences. Everything I'm saying revolves around them making content that's fun and NOT swing for the fence budget wise. Remember "rounding error"? I absolutely understand that muppets aren't/won't be a massive ip. The point is they can make profit with the right people in charge. And if they're not losing money, why not try and, I don't know, nurture the brand? It might not get billions of dollars in profit. But for a platform that releases garbage on top of garbage with D+, it could use some good content that isn't supposed to be a blockbuster.

I'll end with this. The Muppets are an extremely low risk property. Even if they aren't banking billions they have proven they can make some money. Or at least be a positive light in a company that has a lot of negativity surrounding it's content quality.

You've argued a lot in these forums about, it's not always about making billions, there's a bigger picture... But now it's, well the The Muppets only doubled it's budget in profit and won a best song oscar and Mayhem reviewed very well and spawned a #1 album... I see why they're done. You say you're a fan but yet can't see why the quality of the product might be factor in the results. If you don't think the Muppets can add value to Disney if they produce quality content, ok, that's fine. I just don't see it that way. Until I see some consistent quality effort that loses them money. Just like I won't say star wars is dead because Disney has crapped the bed it. It's a all a Disney problem not an Ip problem, plain and simple.

 

[Disney Irish]

Of course marvel and star wars aren't close to the Muppets. The point is they are willing to flush $230mil down the toilet on something that was absolutely terrible. But muppets mayhem somehow broke the Camels back? I guess we don't know the budget. But if was crazy, once again Disneys fault, not the ip.

Again the idea here is leveraging IPs that sell, not about budgets. If Disney thought that Muppets sold anywhere even in the same sports league as either Star Wars or Marvel they'd be pushed all over the place in terms of offerings.

Of course I'm looking at it through a fans eye too. But from a business perspective, would another person come in as ceo and look at a property and assess why said ip didn't do well? Maybe the muppets are dead, and they will never be anything more than spokesman for booking.com. But I can't confidently say that when the majority of what they've done is bad.

For all we say about Iger and his "creative" decisions, we can say that he is a fairly good business person. He wouldn't sit on a property that has earning potential. So that is why I'm fairly confident that another CEO isn't going to all of a sudden do an about face on pumping out Muppet content.

I gave that information.

You didn't or maybe I missed it in what you said which is why I'm asking. The common thing in your posts is "they produce bad content so how do we know", but that isn't proof of some pent up demand that would gobble up the next good thing to the tune of several hundred Million. That is hope that there is an audience, not proof.

So again I ask, where is your proof that there is actually pent up earning potential? Where is the data? A number one record on the kids chart and some positive reviews but no views to back that up? That isn't proof, that is a single piece of data. We have lots of other content from Disney that has similar stories that don't get picked up for more content. So why is Muppets any different, it doesn't have the numbers, so why should it be given more chances where the chances previously given haven't produced any different results?

Bluey for example has the views and sales to back it up, which is why Bluey will start being put into the Parks. An argument you had I believe in that they should have done it long ago and that Disney was stupid to pass on it originally, which I told you just wait maybe they are in the process of securing the theme park right and they were.

So Disney isn't above putting money and resources into properties that are producing, which brings us back to Muppets. If a property like Bluey which has the views and sales to back it up, you can see why its moving forward with more things coming out from Disney including a movie. If Muppets really had pent up earning potential, like a Bluey, then we know Disney wouldn't just sit on it, they'd do something about it and expand not contract in terms of Muppet offerings.

Right here, that's what you're missing. I've not once said they should swing for the fences. Everything I'm saying revolves around them making content that's fun and NOT swing for the fence budget wise. Remember "rounding error"? I absolutely understand that muppets aren't/won't be a massive ip. The point is they can make profit with the right people in charge. And if they're not losing money, why not try and, I don't know, nurture the brand? It might not get billions of dollars in profit. But for a platform that releases garbage on top of garbage with D+, it could use some good content that isn't supposed to be a blockbuster.

I'll end with this. The Muppets are an extremely low risk property. Even if they aren't banking billions they have proven they can make some money. Or at least be a positive light in a company that has a lot of negativity surrounding it's content quality.

You've argued a lot in these forums about, it's not always about making billions, there's a bigger picture... But now it's, well the The Muppets only doubled it's budget in profit and won a best song oscar and Mayhem reviewed very well and spawned a #1 album... I see why they're done. You say you're a fan but yet can't see why the quality of the product might be factor in the results. If you don't think the Muppets can add value to Disney if they produce quality content, ok, that's fine. I just don't see it that way. Until I see some consistent quality effort that loses them money. Just like I won't say star wars is dead because Disney has crapped the bed it. It's a all a Disney problem not an Ip problem, plain and simple.

You've got me all wrong here, when I said swing for the fences I didn't mean budget wise I meant creatively. Which from what I've gotten from your posts is exactly what you want them to do when you say "make good content". You want content that has no restrictions put on them creatively to see what it can do.

Also I'm a fan, but not a hardcore fan, I'm more a casual fan. Which is probably why I can look at this by taking off the fan hat since I'm not deep in it and just keeping on my business hat. And yes maybe Disney should do more with them. But with a company that has so much IP under its roof, so why should Muppets be near the top of the pile in terms of company focus when other properties that are just as good don't get near the representation or focus as them. The earning potential might be there, but I just don't see it.