"The Curse of Expansion"

[lebeau]

He told you this? :veryconfu

I really wish people would stop saying things like they know what he would or would not do in today's business environment.

I could care less if a McD's is along side the pathway. Some like their food and so therefore it serves a purpose. I have never eaten at one while at WDW, but I don't mind if they are there for the ones that want it.

Yes, I speak with Walt regularily.

He also really hates Stitch's Great Escape - though he does like an occassional McFlurry.

Obviously, I'm speculating.

 

[wdwishes2005]

It's all very simple. Given a choice, hands down I would go to the Magic Kingdom over any theme or amusement park worldwide. Why? I don't go just for thrills. I go for the entire experience. This includes theming, manageable thrills, family friendly, nostalgia and most of all, the Magic. Doesn't matter what Cedar Pt or 6 Flags is doing.

ill take disney over CP any day, but i enjoy CP's rides more.

 

[imagineerfan]

whoa never compare a cedar fair park to Six Flags...though Geauga Lake was a Six Flags...CF is far better than SF

I couldn't agree more.

 

[dave2822]

Everyone was screaming for more attractions at Animal Kingdom. So, Disney builds a 100 Million e-ticket, and now they are focusing too much on that and not enough on older attractions? I'm wondering if PoTC and HM had gotten rehabs instead how many of the same people, including the people backing this article, would be screaming for the e-ticket. Time to start a "whining and complaining" forum as well.

Does some of the older attractions need help at MK? Yes, but they aren't torn down like cheap carnival rides like some make it out to be. It is a priority, but the much bashed WDW managment is doing the right thing in assuming more people will come to WDW for new attractions than the same fresh painted older ones. And I have heard murmors of rehabs for these attractions coming soon, so everyone can be happy.

 

[lebeau]

Everyone was screaming for more attractions at Animal Kingdom. So, Disney builds a 100 Million e-ticket, and now they are focusing too much on that and not enough on older attractions? I'm wondering if PoTC and HM had gotten rehabs instead how many of the same people, including the people backing this article, would be screaming for the e-ticket. Time to start a "whining and complaining" forum as well.

Does some of the older attractions need help at MK? Yes, but they aren't torn down like cheap carnival rides like some make it out to be. It is a priority, but the much bashed WDW managment is doing the right thing in assuming more people will come to WDW for new attractions than the same fresh painted older ones. And I have heard murmors of rehabs for these attractions coming soon, so everyone can be happy.

That seems a bit harsh.

I definitely didn't take the article to be "whining and complaining". I think Kevin's point was that the rampant expansion of the 90s into additional parks, hotels, etc. put a drain on the resources of the resort as a whole. You can definitely feel the effects of that expansion by the lack of new attractions and refurbs in MK.

I don't think he's coming out against expansion as a whole, just that it be a more thoughtful and controlled expansion.

 

[dave2822]

That seems a bit harsh.

I definitely didn't take the article to be "whining and complaining". I think Kevin's point was that the rampant expansion of the 90s into additional parks, hotels, etc. put a drain on the resources of the resort as a whole. You can definitely feel the effects of that expansion by the lack of new attractions and refurbs in MK.

I don't think he's coming out against expansion as a whole, just that it be a more thoughtful and controlled expansion.

I suppose, but I guess we can just agree to disagree.

The major expansion of parks and hotels in the 90's was needed, especially because of the compeition moving in, and the amount of money floating away because of off-site staying guests.

It wouldn't make much sense to me to add a large attraction to a theme park that was already running away from not only the rest of the world, but the other three Disney parks as well. Attractions like RnRC, M:S, or EE were more needed in the other parks, for the same reason Magic Kingdom keeps it's mountains on opposite sides of the park, for crowd balance.

And MK has seen additions, PhilharMagic, Stitch (which though may not be all that popular to some, including me, is still popular enough to attract an AE or greater crowd level), and a great rehab of IASW and hopefully more to come. Do I agree that more attractions could use rehabs? Yes, in time, hopefully relatively soon. But there should be a few more additions to other parks before a large one to MK. Just my opinion.

 

[wannab@dis]

Yes, I speak with Walt regularily.

He also really hates Stitch's Great Escape - though he does like an occassional McFlurry.

Obviously, I'm speculating.

You made a statement, you didn't speculate. Walt would not like.... You didn't say, "I don't think Walt would like..."

I'm just making a point that's not directed only at you, but many other posters here and at other sites. Nobody KNOWS what Walt would or would not want today. Let's don't make statement as such.

 

[25and7]

He told you this? :veryconfu

I really wish people would stop saying things like they know what he would or would not do in today's business environment.

I could care less if a McD's is along side the pathway. Some like their food and so therefore it serves a purpose. I have never eaten at one while at WDW, but I don't mind if they are there for the ones that want it.

AMEN to that!

I am so sick and tired of people saying "that's not the way Walt would have wanted it." That is by far the most overused cliche/paradime used on this site and I'm really starting to get sick of it.

Would Walt have wanted it to turn out this way? No one will EVER know that so there is no use in even speculating on one side or the other!

Look, since Walt's death the Disney Company has obviously done a fantastic job in expanding the company while keeping the parks enertaining for people of all ages. No one really has the right to say that the Disney Company is not running in accordance of Walt's original intentions because obviously no one even knew what his ulimate intentions were for WDW and what he wanted the future to hold.

 

[lebeau]

You made a statement, you didn't speculate. Walt would not like.... You didn't say, "I don't think Walt would like..."

I'm just making a point that's not directed only at you, but many other posters here and at other sites. Nobody KNOWS what Walt would or would not want today. Let's don't make statement as such.

I'm very sorry to have stepped on your pet peeve.

Having said that, I wouldn't expect to get through a week on these forums without seeing at least one post where someone speculates as to what Walt would have thought. And I don't see a problem with people discussing what they think Walt might have thought on a Disney discussion board.

To each their own, I guess.

 

[dave2822]

Look, since Walt's death the Disney Company has obviously done a fantastic job in expanding the company while keeping the parks enertaining for people of all ages. No one really has the right to say that the Disney Company is not running in accordance of Walt's original intentions because obviously no one even knew what his ulimate intentions were for WDW and what he wanted the future to hold.

And amen to that as well. Walt Disney really shouldn't be used as supporting an argument about 1990's expansion.

Just save that and post it the next time "Walt would have wanted" something.

 

[General Grizz]

As far as expansion/rehabs go, let's look at 1993-1995 Disney. Within 1993 and 1995, Disney:

Extensively Redesigned:
The Land
Spaceship Earth
The Carousel of Progress
Tomorrowland
Snow White's Scary Adventures
The Hall of Presidents
Star Jets to Astro Orbiter
Created
Alien Encounter
The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror
Honey, I Shrunk the Audience
Legend of the Lion King
Galaxy Palace Theater Show
Innoventions
Sonny Eclipse
"Cloned," but rescripted
The Timekeeper
...and started
The Flower and Garden Festival
The Food and Wine Festival
The Spectacle of Lights
And Opened
Wedding Pavilion
All Star Sports and Music
Blizzard Beach
Wilderness Lodge

=========================================

Ten years later, between 2003-2005:

Extensively Redesigned:
The Land
It's a Small World
Alien Encounter (to add Stitch)
Disney Institute (to Saratoga Springs)
The Living Seas (still in progress)
Created
Mission Space
Mickey's PhilharMagic
Everest (being built)
"Cloned," but rescripted
Lights Motors Action
Soarin'
Cinderellabration
...and started
Wishes
Opened
Disney's Pop Century Resort

(And I guess we could include "closed without having replaced": Diamond Horseshoe, Timekeeper, Wonders of Life)

So while many guests on the boards may be asking to have classic attractions rehabbed and while they may be asking for new thrills (and Everest is on its way), remember that there was a time of great growth within the parks for both rehabs and new additions.

Of course, the biggest difference is looking at the new attractions and addtions created and added which are original to the park. (Lucky not included, as he will only be here for three months and is thus an "exhibit").

 

[speck76]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't buy the argument. The reason Cedar Point doesn't pass WDW in attendance might have something to do with the fact they are only open 6 months a year. HMMMMM?

not even 6 months

they have about 135 days of operation

If htey were open all year and had similar attendance patterns, they would be ahead of MGM and DAK for total attendance

 

[Hakunamatata]

A new fad..........

What Would Walt Do?
WWWD

 

[lebeau]

I suppose, but I guess we can just agree to disagree.

The major expansion of parks and hotels in the 90's was needed, especially because of the compeition moving in, and the amount of money floating away because of off-site staying guests.

It wouldn't make much sense to me to add a large attraction to a theme park that was already running away from not only the rest of the world, but the other three Disney parks as well. Attractions like RnRC, M:S, or EE were more needed in the other parks, for the same reason Magic Kingdom keeps it's mountains on opposite sides of the park, for crowd balance.

And MK has seen additions, PhilharMagic, Stitch (which though may not be all that popular to some, including me, is still popular enough to attract an AE or greater crowd level), and a great rehab of IASW and hopefully more to come. Do I agree that more attractions could use rehabs? Yes, in time, hopefully relatively soon. But there should be a few more additions to other parks before a large one to MK. Just my opinion.

I don't really disagree with you. I do think that there was a need for expansion in the 90s. I do think it might have been more focused. Maybe if they had taken more time (particularily in planning MGM) the resort as a whole would be more cohesive.

I also totally get putting the new attractions in the other parks. It just makes sense given the current state of the parks. Sure, I'd love to see more refurb especially in MK. But I understand that new attractions bring people back to the parks.

 

[speck76]

I agree with Kevin up to a point.


If MGM and AK had never been built, there would have been more resources funneled to MK and Epcot. Those parks would be in a better state of repair and would have newer, fresher attractions.

Resources that could have been used on any of the parks have gone into a variety of other parts of the resort; hotels, shopping districts, etc.

Walt would not have cared for McDonalds presence in the parks. I found it somewhat off-putting though I imagine the parent of a picky eater might see it as salvation.

The burst of expansion we saw in the 90s could have been more planned-out and contained. As it is now, the Studios in particular just seems like a random collection of attractions instead of a truly cohesive and well-planned park.

The studios was too popular when it opened, which is why the 1992-94 expansion were so poorly planned.....they did not follow the master plan.

In Walt's day, the majority of food vendors in the park were 3rd party vendors....

If DAK and MGM were never opened, the income those parks produce would not exist, along with the room nights spent at the hotels for the longer stays of guests.

 

[lebeau]

The studios was too popular when it opened, which is why the 1992-94 expansion were so poorly planned.....they did not follow the master plan.

In Walt's day, the majority of food vendors in the park were 3rd party vendors....

If DAK and MGM were never opened, the income those parks produce would not exist, along with the room nights spent at the hotels for the longer stays of guests.

I did not know that about the 3rd party vendors. How interesting. Any idea who the vendors were? I still have my doubts about McDonald's. It's known for being the lowest common denominator. I just don't see it being up to his standards. Any info you have on this would be appreciated.

As for the other parks, I don't mean to suggest they shouldn't exist. Like I said in another post, I see the need for expansion. But I also think we are now seeing the effects of hasty, poorly planned expansion. If Disney had not been in such a rush to beat Universal to the punch, I think we'd have a much better lay-out for MGM.

 

[speck76]

As for the other parks, I don't mean to suggest they shouldn't exist. Like I said in another post, I see the need for expansion. But I also think we are now seeing the effects of hasty, poorly planned expansion. If Disney had not been in such a rush to beat Universal to the punch, I think we'd have a much better lay-out for MGM.

I have thought for a few years now that MGM is the most "broken" park at WDW.

When I opened, the only areas accesible to guests were Hollywood Blvd, Echo Lake, and the Animation Courtyard. Also, where the Studio Catering Company is, that was the mid-point on the combined Walking and Tram Tour.

NY street, the Muppet Vision area, Mickey Ave.....these were not open to guests.......and the lack of theming shows.

The park was too popular (from my understanding it was designed for 6-7 million people per year, but was getting over 10 million people) which forced WDW to open the previously closed areas, or the park would be too congested. It also forced MGM to speed up the Phase 2/3 capacity improvements...this continued all the way until the opening of Fantasmic (and the David Copperfield area that was never built)

The park was forced to react to the size of the crowds at that time. They expanded quickly, and abandoned the original concept. Now, attendance is 3 million below the peak years (about 8,500 ppl per day) so the park had to respond by closing attractions (Backlot Theater, Superstar TV.....) as they no longer need to entertain so many people.

More than any park at WDW, MGM needs help. Adding IJA will not help, as the entire park needs a refresh.

Voyage of the Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast have been around too long, and pale in comparison to newer shows at other Disney parks.

Sounds Dangerous is neat, but was a downgrade from the Monster Sound show....it too should be replaced.

Star Tours used to be the most popular ride in the park, was running a 5 minute wait on 7/4....the technology is dated, the ride is not that interesting.

The tram tour is a shell of its previous self.

The GMR is no longer a "marquee" attraction that it should be.

One problem with show-intensive parks is that the shows get dated quickly, and IMO should be replaced every 6 years or so.

DAK crowds are very close to what MGM gets, and that is without any major thrill ride at DAK. Even with the opening of LMA this year, I think, with the opening of EE next year, DAK could, within a year or two, surpass MGM, and make MGM the #4 park.

 

[dave2822]

not even 6 months

they have about 135 days of operation

If htey were open all year and had similar attendance patterns, they would be ahead of MGM and DAK for total attendance

The "similar attendance patterns" is the key. Yes they have 3.2 million coming in 135 days, but who is to say that you can take that number and double it or multiply it for 365 days? Cedar Point isn't being rivaled by a theme park giant or other large draw in that area, if it were open all year it would have to be in California or Florida. Would it still pull in the same numbers with Disney, Universal, Six Flags, Busch, and other non-theme park competitors pulling on its sleeves? The summer months are busiest as it is, who is to say that October - April could also pull in 3.2 million+. I'm not saying Cedar isn't a great park, and the article isn't even really about this, but mine as well offer the point.

I do think it might have been more focused. Maybe if they had taken more time (particularily in planning MGM) the resort as a whole would be more cohesive.

In terms of MGM, I definetly agree with you there.

 

[peter11435]

not even 6 months

they have about 135 days of operation

If htey were open all year and had similar attendance patterns, they would be ahead of MGM and DAK for total attendance

The fact is no matter how long the park is open there are only x amount of people who want to visit the park. Thus while being open all year would slightly increase attendance. For the most part it would only spread the attendance out, and decrease the daily attendance. It is similar to opening a fifth park at WDW, it will slightly increase overall attendance but for the most part it will only decrease from the parks.

 

[GoofyMike29]

pure rubbish...this article goes around in circles and does not make a point what so ever...go back to the university and learn how to draft a basic article