Tenaya Stone Spa and Cultural Appropriation

[el_super]

Here is what I believe you are not understanding: we are not a monolith.

I think I do understand that, and am even arguing that point above. Different members of the same group can have differing opinions on the same thing. Even in the fodors article this was eluded to with the comments from the younger Miwuk members:

The younger generations—Millennials and Gen X Miwuks—seem to have more hope and an understanding that Disney’s power comes from marketing and messaging. They’d rather not focus on the stone or the spa, but on what Disney can do now. And that means helping them in their 40-plus-year fight of becoming a federally recognized tribe.​

​

“If they’re capitalizing off of our tribe, then they should help promote our recognition, too,” said Waylon Coats, a member of the Southern Sierra Miwuk Nation as well as Cultural Director for the Chicken Ranch Tribe of Me-Wuk Indians of California. “I think it’s only fair.” After our interview, Coats sent a follow-up text: “Maybe that stone is our answer to our prayers and our ancestors’ prayers to finally have a dialogue with greater outreach.”​

So even amongst the Miwuk, this can fall in a spectrum between cultural appropriation and no big deal.

A Saginaw Chippewa tribal member would know this. This person is a 'cultural consultant' for the company, when the Anishinaabeg have absolutely nothing to do culturally with the Miwuk people.

It goes to a whole other line of questions that we don't have the answers to. Whether or not Dawn Jackson was trying to faithfully respect other indigenous cultures or not, and to what degree other external factors were getting in the way. Which do you think it was? Or are you just suggesting she lied about her heritage?

There is no confusion about the legitimacy of the sources they used, because there is no legitimacy-- the tribal nations have repeatedly stated that they were never consulted.

I haven't seen it, so maybe you have, but I haven't seen any suggestions that the people they did talk to, either don't exist or are not members of that group.

If they are members of the tribe, are they not allowed to speak on their own behalf?

It is squarely rooted in the broadly homogenous "Native thinking" Colors of the Wind stereotypes, and they are unfortunately using other Native people as their human shields against criticism.

That human shield concept though rests on the idea that all native people think with one "monolithic" mind and cannot have different opinions. That the people Disney asked to be agents, either backed down or lied. It's entirely possible that every native person they spoke to along the way completely sold out their culture and heritage for money, but that goes back to my original question: how many differences of opinion or mistakes can be tolerated along the path toward integration?

And yeah, I see that I am assuming that Disney was trying to do the right thing here, but it honestly makes the most sense to me. If they didn't care about the cultural significance of representing other groups, they didn't need to go to the trouble they went to in order to sell this story to the public. They could have simply made something up and been done with it.

This is hokey stone clearly fake mumbo jumbo.

Generally I agree, and I really feel uncomfortable with this being tacked onto a spa in order to sell a certain kind of point of view. I just generally see this as a bigger issue with spas rather than what Disney is trying to do.

 

[Dear Prudence]

I mean, for Christ's sake, they don't even use the proper name of the Southern Sierra Miwuk nation when referring to them, something they would have surfaced with even a smidge of proper research.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

It is still important to acknowledge that they made an attempt, no matter what the outcome. There's still a lot of questions left unanswered as to what Disney knew and what led them to the end result.

I don’t think the intent was malicious but you can only give so many mulligans. In my own job I’ve had to let people go who tried hard and made an attempt but jut weren’t effective at their jobs. I didn’t feel good about it. But I had to, and I found careers more fitting for them.

Im a firm believer in Walt’s idea of continually plussing the park. But someone with stock in TWDC I’m beginning to seriously think some of these “pluses” to the parks are seemingly being made to the point of being frivolous in nature, which is concerning.

Even if it wasn’t borderline sacreligious and culturally insensitive it’s hard to see how anyone is going to inspired to get a spa treatment because of a Native American overlay. I fail to see how anyone was skipping out on Roger Rabbit because Jessica Rabbits figure was offensive. It’s outrageous that two (admittedly well themed) roller coasters are costing half the price of a full blown theme park down the road in Orlando. For all the “data” focused rumors out there I’d like to see the ROI on some of these investments.

Even projects that I agree with - like PaTF Splash Mountain - could be lightning rods for PR backlash if not handled properly and with some level of consideration and care given the cultural importance and magnitude of the change. But what do I know, I’m just one stockholder.

 

[Dear Prudence]

I think I do understand that, and am even arguing that point above. Different members of the same group can have differing opinions on the same thing. Even in the fodors article this was eluded to with the comments from the younger Miwuk members:

The younger generations—Millennials and Gen X Miwuks—seem to have more hope and an understanding that Disney’s power comes from marketing and messaging. They’d rather not focus on the stone or the spa, but on what Disney can do now. And that means helping them in their 40-plus-year fight of becoming a federally recognized tribe.​

​

“If they’re capitalizing off of our tribe, then they should help promote our recognition, too,” said Waylon Coats, a member of the Southern Sierra Miwuk Nation as well as Cultural Director for the Chicken Ranch Tribe of Me-Wuk Indians of California. “I think it’s only fair.” After our interview, Coats sent a follow-up text: “Maybe that stone is our answer to our prayers and our ancestors’ prayers to finally have a dialogue with greater outreach.”​

So even amongst the Miwuk, this can fall in a spectrum between cultural appropriation and no big deal.




It goes to a whole other line of questions that we don't have the answers to. Whether or not Dawn Jackson was trying to faithfully respect other indigenous cultures or not, and to what degree other external factors were getting in the way. Which do you think it was? Or are you just suggesting she lied about her heritage?




I haven't seen it, so maybe you have, but I haven't seen any suggestions that the people they did talk to, either don't exist or are not members of that group.

If they are members of the tribe, are they not allowed to speak on their own behalf?




That human shield concept though rests on the idea that all native people think with one "monolithic" mind and cannot have different opinions. That the people Disney asked to be agents, either backed down or lied. It's entirely possible that every native person they spoke to along the way completely sold out their culture and heritage for money, but that goes back to my original question: how many differences of opinion or mistakes can be tolerated along the path toward integration?

And yeah, I see that I am assuming that Disney was trying to do the right thing here, but it honestly makes the most sense to me. If they didn't care about the cultural significance of representing other groups, they didn't need to go to the trouble they went to in order to sell this story to the public. They could have simply made something up and been done with it.




Generally I agree, and I really feel uncomfortable with this being tacked onto a spa in order to sell a certain kind of point of view. I just generally see this as a bigger issue with spas rather than what Disney is trying to do.

It is painfully obvious they were not in any way trying to do any right thing, and are using Native people to deflect criticism, which is a downright ugly thing to do. Disney is wrong. They know they're wrong. They thought they could get away with it. This is all very basic, surface-level stuff that can easily be reached. They probably were told no--and because the Miwuk don't want the Mouse to own any parts of their Ceremony and Medicine, not just because the Miwuk are very private people, and because they didn't get the answers they wanted, and then did what they wanted. They only thing they tried was to get their hands on something thay they knew didn't belong to them.

 

[el_super]

It is painfully obvious they were not in any way trying to do any right thing, and are using Native people to deflect criticism, which is a downright ugly thing to do. Disney is wrong.

How can you be so certain of it? You're being completely dismissive of the people they did ask, who did try, without any real evidence of their motives or intentions. You're basically doing the same thing here to Disney, that you are accusing Disney of doing to others.

They probably were told no--

But they weren't, because we were told they didn't contact the tribal government. Don't make stuff up.

 

[Dear Prudence]

How can you be so certain of it? You're being completely dismissive of the people they did ask, who did try, without any real evidence of their motives or intentions. You're basically doing the same thing here to Disney, that you are accusing Disney of doing to others.




But they weren't, because we were told they didn't contact the tribal government. Don't make stuff up.

I don't understand why you are defending Disney, who are very clearly, obviously in the wrong against actual Native person with degrees in American Indian studies (with specific focus on law) very painstakingly and patiently trying to bring legal context and personal experience in to try to navigate this incredibly nuanced situation. Disney is in the wrong. If they really, truly did any degree of even so much of Wikipedia searching, they would have spelled Miwuk correctly. It really is that simple.

 

[donaldtoo]

 

[Dear Prudence]

For folks who are (actually) interested in just how badly Disney has gotten themselves in trouble for this one, here are some law-related and historical reads. Just to reiterate, this company has potentially violated multiple felonies. Native people tend to have some very stringent cultural rules, and there are always consequences for breaking said rules or messing with things you have not business with in the first place. Who needs to tell their kid a Coyote story, when they can use this modern iteration! I am only presenting these laws and cases as facts from a legal standpoint.

-Native religions were banned until the passing of the American Indian Religious Freedom Act in the 1970s, which was supported and expanded by NAGPRA in 1990. We still don't have complete religious freedom in the US, and we still cannot exalt complete control over the remains of our deceased loved ones and ancestors.

-There are continued problems with cultural theft, from non-Native people copyrighting Native religious practices. This is potentially what happened here in some degree.

-To Sue and Be Sued: Capacity and Immunity of American Indian Nations (which I hope they do)

-DOJ archives on theft from a National Park

tl;dr [will probably comment BUT ACTUALLY anyway], #notlegaladvice

 

[el_super]

I don't understand why you are defending Disney, who are very clearly, obviously in the wrong

Simple: the fact that they are trying to do better needs to be acknowledged, and slights need to be understood appropriately and correctly, because the alternatives are just as equally unacceptable. Disney needs to have an outlet for cultural communication and integration, and those efforts need to be sustained and continued, even if they sometimes make mistakes.

It's also worth noting, that Disney isn't some monolithic hive mind with only one voice or opinion. It's made up of many different people of different cultures and backgrounds, all with different opinion. Claiming that the Native American Imagineer just didn't try hard enough, needs to be done with the proper context.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Simple: the fact that they are trying to do better needs to be acknowledged, and slights need to be understood appropriately and correctly, because the alternatives are just as equally unacceptable. Disney needs to have an outlet for cultural communication and integration, and those efforts need to be sustained and continued, even if they sometimes make mistakes.

It's also worth noting, that Disney isn't some monolithic hive mind with only one voice or opinion. It's made up of many different people of different cultures and backgrounds, all with different opinion. Claiming that the Native American Imagineer just didn't try hard enough, needs to be done with the proper context.

I understand the context. They have one specifically Saulteaux cultural consultant. In no way shape or form is this person qualified to speak for anyone other than the Saulteaux, and even then, is only qualified to speak for themselves. They are an enrolled tribal nation member, they are not tribal leader, they are not a Medicine person. Unfortunately, there appears to be a commitment to misunderstanding.

 

[waltography]

Simple: the fact that they are trying to do better needs to be acknowledged, and slights need to be understood appropriately and correctly, because the alternatives are just as equally unacceptable. Disney needs to have an outlet for cultural communication and integration, and those efforts need to be sustained and continued, even if they sometimes make mistakes.

It's also worth noting, that Disney isn't some monolithic hive mind with only one voice or opinion. It's made up of many different people of different cultures and backgrounds, all with different opinion. Claiming that the Native American Imagineer just didn't try hard enough, needs to be done with the proper context.

By brushing off this deliberate choice in design and design philosophy as a "mistake," you're downplaying the very real damage to the tribal nation and its people. How gross it is for a corporation to not even deign you as worthy enough to talk to, potentially steal from your land, craft a mythology fit for a fairy tale, and present it to the public as authentic to your culture and narrative when it is anything but the sort. And even if it were as innocent as you seem to put it as (though it's laughable to think that a group of marginalized people's identity is a "difference of opinion"), then Disney is weaponizing its ignorance to skirt accountability.

 

[TP2000]

I just knew @Dear Prudence would drop some truth bombs on this topic!

What a mess. But what's worse is that I'm not that surprised at how messy this is. They seem to be lost there in both TDA and WDI.

A few months ago after they created a young, time-traveling, Puerto Rican lady of incredibly vast wealth to run the little Christmas shop on Main Street USA, somehow I knew they were lost. Horribly, horribly lost.

I'm shocked at how sloppy and offensive this cheesy day spa is, and yet I'm not surprised. The new lack of surprise is really the saddest part for me personally, since I was once a huge fan of this organization.

 

[Dear Prudence]

I just knew @Dear Prudence would drop some truth bombs on this topic!

What a mess. But what's worse is that I'm not that surprised at how messy this is. They seem to be lost there in both TDA and WDI.

A few months ago after they created a young, time-traveling, Puerto Rican lady of incredibly vast wealth to run the little Christmas shop on Main Street USA, somehow I knew they were lost. Horribly, horribly lost.

I'm shocked at how sloppy and offensive this cheesy day spa is, and yet I'm not surprised. The new lack of surprise is really the saddest part for me personally, since I was once a huge fan of this organization.

Thank you! My degrees are good for something!

 

[Ismael Flores]

Why does everything have to be so complicated now a days.

And people wonder why Disney has gotten so lazy and instead of creating new themes story areas we now get copies of toy story this toy story that.
It’s probably the safest route now to use their own properties as to not make some kind of foolish mistake that will create controversy.
Even then it still might, all we need to do is look at the changes for Snow White. that had people upset because of a kiss

 

[TP2000]

How gross it is for a corporation to not even deign you as worthy enough to talk to, potentially steal from your land, craft a mythology fit for a fairy tale, and present it to the public as authentic to your culture and narrative when it is anything but the sort.

Bingo!

As I said earlier, this is something I've been uncomfortable with several times before in very hip (and not cheap) day spas on the west coast for at least the past 15 years. But I'm not formally educated on their cultures, only a casual hobbyist who has read a few books and visited a few of the tribal areas. But hipster day spas who cross the cultural line are often small businesses that don't have the resources and deep pockets of Disney.

So you would think that with Disney's vast resources (WDI accredited research librarians on staff, a famous name that opens doors when you call to ask if you can come visit, etc., etc.) plus all the money in the world that would have prevented them from being so sloppy and offensive.

Disney now seems to be so desperate to be storytellers! that they think that gives them a pass to phone it in, fabricate a vapid and cutesy backstory for the clueless rubes valued guests, and then sit back and watch the profits roll in for Bob Chapek.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

Not sure if this is an article I can share on these forums but Disney has released a fairly aggressive statement in response to the article in question.

<<In an emailed statement to Fodor’s, a Disney spokesperson denied the Tenaya stone came from Yosemite National Park.

Disney responded saying:

“To confirm, the stone was not sourced from the Yosemite National Park. Any suggestion that the stone was obtained in any unlawful way is completely misleading and blatantly false.”>>

https://.com/2022/04/disney-respond..._bJg3JxfudW4UIv4rNWtUR6zf8ztC2PHO0bkOh-U[/URL

 

[waltography]

Not sure if this is an article I can share on these forums but Disney has released a fairly aggressive statement in response to the article in question.

<<In an emailed statement to Fodor’s, a Disney spokesperson denied the Tenaya stone came from Yosemite National Park.

Disney responded saying:

“To confirm, the stone was not sourced from the Yosemite National Park. Any suggestion that the stone was obtained in any unlawful way is completely misleading and blatantly false.”>>

https://*****.com/2022/04/disney-responds-to-accusations-about-tenaya-stone-at-disneys-grand-californian-hotel-spa/?fbclid=IwAR0pezpNqhaeSJEZIGL_bJg3JxfudW4UIv4rNWtUR6zf8ztC2PHO0bkOh-U[/URL

The Tenaya stone that's not from Lake Tenaya blessed by a Miwuk elder that's somehow not connected to the Southern Sierra Miwuk nation leadership; now that's the kind of authenticity and cultural stewardship Disney prides itself on.

 

[VJ]

Not sure if this is an article I can share on these forums but Disney has released a fairly aggressive statement in response to the article in question.

<<In an emailed statement to Fodor’s, a Disney spokesperson denied the Tenaya stone came from Yosemite National Park.

Disney responded saying:

“To confirm, the stone was not sourced from the Yosemite National Park. Any suggestion that the stone was obtained in any unlawful way is completely misleading and blatantly false.”>>

https://*****.com/2022/04/disney-responds-to-accusations-about-tenaya-stone-at-disneys-grand-californian-hotel-spa/?fbclid=IwAR0pezpNqhaeSJEZIGL_bJg3JxfudW4UIv4rNWtUR6zf8ztC2PHO0bkOh-U[/URL

aw poor chapek got his feelings hurt : (

 

[Dear Prudence]

Ah, well, scientists would be easily able to identify where the rock came from, and this is (more than likely) a NAGPRA violation of some kind. Cultural objects like this DO NOT get gifted, that's all I am saying. We've fought to save our religions for years, we're not giving sacred objects to Disney. The law doesn't give out "oopsie goof, you tried!" stickers.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Ah, well, scientists would be easily able to identify where the rock came from

We're called geologists.

Anyone got a photo of this mischievous rock? It's more likely to have come from the side of the northbound 605 at the Santa Fe dam than up north. Modern imagineers don't even have the knowhow to venture to the Sierra's for cultural research so I doubt they would for a rock.