News Swan and Dolphin Tower Expansion - The Walt Disney World Swan Reserve

[Slowjack]

I know the deal was in place in 1984... without checking I want to say it was from EPCOTs construction deal (Tishman was the main contractor for the park)

That is my understanding. Tishman was granted the option to build in Lake Buena Vista as part of their contract to oversee construction of EPCOT Center. By the time Tishman tried to exercise that option, Eisner was on board, who wasn't happy with the hotels' design or location. Lawsuit filed. In settlement, Tishman was given the primo EPCOT location, but design approval was granted to Disney. The design ultimately became a three-way contest between Graves, Robert Venturi, and Alan Lapidus, who had designed the original LBV hotels. The contest stipulated the maximum height of the buildings to minimize visual intrusion at EPCOT, but Graves went way over, and Eisner so loved the design that he ignored his own rules. (I'm fond of the Swan and Dolphin, but they are far too tall for their locations.)

(Also, I know you know this stuff, Martin. I'm just filling in the backstory for anyone else who is curious.)

 

[lazyboy97o]

True. S&D each have their own pools and they share common ones and their guests can use the other's pools. Though, with how upscale the Office is supposed to be, they may not let S&D use their pool!

It seems to me the artwork makes it clear that the three hotels will share the space between them. The local resort road is landscaped to diminish it's divisiveness.

View attachment 267474

Pedestrian access could be convention attendees.

On the map it's labeled C2 Hotel. Maybe Chicken Coop at the Swolphin?

The Chickens are elsewhere.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Crystal Meh

It's the Curry Two Chefs of hotels.

 

[JohnD]

How about Swan and Dolphin statue removal from the tops of the buildings? I realize they can dispose of them, so place them at ground level in front of each resort instead?

 

[the.dreamfinder]

How about Swan and Dolphin statue removal from the tops of the buildings? I realize they can dispose of them, so place them at ground level in front of each resort instead?

 

[DisneyGentlemanV2.0]

Honestly, I don't think. Disney's market is themed entertainment, and the themes of the hotels (like the wondrous Wilderness Lodge) draw me in to another place. Siting as well as aesthetics are key. I can deal with blah hotels on interstates on a business trip, but I won't throw expensive vacation dollars at Crystal Meh.

It's the Curry Two Chefs of hotels.

Hah!!

 

[kpilcher]

I know the deal was in place in 1984... without checking I want to say it was from EPCOTs construction deal (Tishman was the main contractor for the park)

I’m also hearing the new hotel may not end up looking quite as bad as the render.

IIRC One of Eisner's first acts on the P&R side was to go forward with the mostly-designed Grand Flo, which apparently Tishman felt violated the spirit of its Miller-era agreement, that led Tishman to insist on building the boxy bland hotel, and that led to lawsuits before Swan & Dolphin was decided on as a compromise.

(Again IIRC) The Miller-era deal gave Tishman exclusive right to build hotels at WDW for a decade, or longer. Why? Disney brass knew they needed more hotels, but the conservative board of directors wouldn't approve it, still choking from the Epcot overages.

So they gave Tishman the sweetheart deal to a) get more hotel rooms and b) compromise on Tishman's final Epcot construction bill.

Around that same time, the takeover threats and greenmail happened, bringing in Eisner & Wells and shaking up the board. Eisner wisely blew up the Tishman deal, and Swolphin started looming over Epcot's carefully crafted World Showcase sight-lines.

Disney still owns the Swolphin land, BTW, I was doing some unrelated research for work very recently, and stumbled on that info at the Orange County Property Appraiser's website.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Disney still owns the Swolphin land, BTW, I was doing some unrelated research for work very recently, and stumbled on that info at the Orange County Property Appraiser's website.

They also own the land the LBV resorts sit on. I wonder what the situation is for the Four Seasons and the Flamingo Crossings development.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Disney still owns the Swolphin land, BTW

And the lease to use the land is only 99 years.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

And the lease to use the land is only 99 years.

What’s the operator situation with the hotel. For example, could Disney conceivably operate the hotel on Tishman’s behalf?

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

That's gotta be a hoax, right?

Not April 1st

 

[MisterPenguin]

What’s the operator situation with the hotel. For example, could Disney conceivably operate the hotel on Tishman’s behalf?

I don't know.

Tishman had hired Westin and Sheraton to run the Swan and Dolphin (respectively). The idea was that as conference centers, those chains could attract conventioneers with points. Since then, Starwood bought out both chains and Marriott bought out Starwood. But, though third party, they are run and advertised as a Disney Resort with most of the Disney Resort advantages.

The unique Sheraton and Westin identities are close to being gone.

The Swolphin and SPG website mentions neither Westin nor Sheraton... they did at one point. Only if you search the Westin and/or Sheraton websites (run under SPG's online service) will they show up as their original chain.

When I was there a few weeks ago, I had to break up my stay between the two because they each didn't have a full week of vacancies, but when I was there, I asked if the Swan stay could be switched to the Dolphin (I saw online that rooms had opened up), and the Dolphin CM moved it no problem. They're all on one system.

So, I guess Tishman could 'hire Disney' to run the resort as a Disney resort, but then that would lose the conventioneer-points angle.

What's odd about the leaked plans is calling the new resort C2... that's not a brand of any of Marriott's tentacles.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I don't know.

Tishman had hired Westin and Sheraton to run the Swan and Dolphin (respectively). The idea was that as conference centers, those chains could attract conventioneers with points. Since then, Starwood bought out both chains and Marriott bought out Starwood. But, though third party, they are run and advertised as a Disney Resort with most of the Disney Resort advantages.

The unique Sheraton and Westin identities are close to being gone.

The Swolphin and SPG website mentions neither Westin nor Sheraton... they did at one point. Only if you search the Westin and/or Sheraton websites (run under SPG's online service) will they show up as their original chain.

When I was there a few weeks ago, I had to break up my stay between the two because they each didn't have a full week of vacancies, but when I was there, I asked if the Swan stay could be switched to the Dolphin (I saw online that rooms had opened up), and the Dolphin CM moved it no problem. They're all on one system.

So, I guess Tishman could 'hire Disney' to run the resort as a Disney resort, but then that would lose the conventioneer-points angle.

What's odd about the leaked plans is calling the new resort C2... that's not a brand of any of Marriott's tentacles.

Good synopsis...

...I think longterm, the question that should be asked is "when will disney pay someone else to run THEIR hotels"...not the opposite.

Disney hates the longterm
Cost of labor in Orlando...imagine if respectable wages are enacted (its inevitable)?

...be still, my heart. They will look to eliminate the labor at some point and leave it to those that it comprises their core business.

 

[GeneralKnowledge]

What are the chances the architect who designed this ice cube has never seen the Swolphin and when he asked Disney for some reference pictures of the site to work from they showed him the original, rejected Michael Graves designs.

 

[lazyboy97o]

What are the chances the architect who designed this ice cube has never seen the Swolphin and when he asked Disney for some reference pictures of the site to work from they showed him the original, rejected Michael Graves designs.

What original rejected Graves designs? Graves was no longer a White by the time of the Swan and Dolphin. It seems doubtful that an architect wouldn’t know Graves and would also not bother with even cursory research on the site context.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

What are the chances the architect who designed this ice cube has never seen the Swolphin and when he asked Disney for some reference pictures of the site to work from they showed him the original, rejected Michael Graves designs.

What original rejected Graves designs? Graves was no longer a White by the time of the Swan and Dolphin. It seems doubtful that an architect wouldn’t know Graves and would also not bother with even cursory research on the site context.

It’s popular to dump on post modernism these days. That’s why exemplary buildings like the Swolphin need to be preserved and more carefully upgraded.

Even when he made a video in support of preserving Phillip Johnson’s AT&T Building (550 Madison), Lord Norman Foster (Apple Park, Hong Kong International) couldn’t help but casually trash it.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

What are the chances the architect who designed this ice cube has never seen the Swolphin and when he asked Disney for some reference pictures of the site to work from they showed him the original, rejected Michael Graves designs.

Not very good...the internet allows for easy info...

It's not Just For kids on snapchat

 

[lazyboy97o]

It’s popular to dump on post modernism these days. That’s why exemplary buildings like the Swolphin need to be preserved and more carefully upgraded.

Even when he made a video in support of preserving Phillip Johnson’s AT&T Building (550 Madison), Lord Norman Foster (Apple Park, Hong Kong International) couldn’t help but casually trash it.

Postmodern buildings have a rough decade or so ahead of them.

 

[GeneralKnowledge]

What original rejected Graves designs? Graves was no longer a White by the time of the Swan and Dolphin. It seems doubtful that an architect wouldn’t know Graves and would also not bother with even cursory research on the site context.

I was being sarcastic, apparently failing to make a joke, referring @marni1971’s post below. If Eisner rejected the original designs for being too boxy and generic, wouldn’t it be humorous if those designs were what the current architect was basing his design from?

It’s odd. Eisner rejected the original Tishman hotels that were proposed after they were moved from LBV to here. They were too box-like, generic glass buildings that could be built anywhere. That’s why we got the Swolphin.

Yet here we are in 2018 looking at a box-like generic glass building that could be built anywhere.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I was being sarcastic, apparently failing to make a joke, referring @marni1971’s post below. If Eisner rejected the original designs for being too boxy and generic, wouldn’t it be humorous if those designs were what the current architect was basing his design from?

Those designs weren’t by Graves. I thought you were alluding to some obscure scheme in between.