News Swan and Dolphin Tower Expansion - The Walt Disney World Swan Reserve

[Lensman]

Subclasses such as?

No offense intended, but are you asking with a patronizing intent? Anyway, I know you to be quite an architectural resource here and your arguments are always in good faith, so I'll just ask: What do you think about hotels with floor-to-ceiling windows and good (maybe early postmodern) architecture, maybe taking cues from Graves' work on the property?

Note that I am not an architect, I just think that ornamented form, color, and stone as you see in Graves' Swan and Dolphin designs (and much of his other work) as well as Venturi's work don't seem obviously compatible with monolithic window walls.

I'd put forward the Williams Tower in Houston (formerly the Transco Tower) as an example of postmodern gothic revival which has does utilize an all-glass facade.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, I guess I'm saying that you might have to pay for brilliant.

 

[Missing20K]

No offense intended, but are you asking with a patronizing intent? Anyway, I know you to be quite an architectural resource here and your arguments are always in good faith, so I'll just ask: What do you think about hotels with floor-to-ceiling windows and good (maybe early postmodern) architecture, maybe taking cues from Graves' work on the property?

Note that I am not an architect, I just think that ornamented form, color, and stone as you see in Graves' Swan and Dolphin designs (and much of his other work) as well as Venturi's work don't seem obviously compatible with monolithic window walls.

I'd put forward the Williams Tower in Houston (formerly the Transco Tower) as an example of postmodern gothic revival which has does utilize an all-glass facade.
View attachment 316387

I'm not saying that it can't be done, I guess I'm saying that you might have to pay for brilliant.

My only intent in asking was maybe there were some subclasses of postmodern architecture I was unaware of? Certainly not an attempt to patronize.

Philip Johnson PPG Plaza in Pittsburgh is also a Postmodern Gothic Revival building utilizing a "wall of windows" (though it actually is a curtain wall, @lazyboy97o )

My point was more in that you can still have a floor to ceiling window in a postmodern building that does not necessarily have a wall of windows or curtain wall. One can still do a punched opening large enough to essentially be floor to ceiling.

The arched glass at the top of Guild House by Venturi:

I'm fine with floor to ceiling windows in hotels, I'm fine with smaller "punched" openings, it all depends on execution.

As far as taking cues from Graves' designs on property to utilize in new hotels on property, I can't say I'm a big fan of doing that. I am personally not a huge fan of Graves' work overall, Swophin notwithstanding. I feel his designs were the most banal and immature of all the big name postmodern architects. Stern, Venturi/Scott Brown, Stirling, Moore, Tschumi, Koolhaus, Gehry, and on and on. He is pretty far down the list. If they want to imitate, there are better places to start.

And I may have misunderstood your post slightly, but yes I do agree that a monolithic slab of glazing is a tough aesthetic to reconcile with the existing Swolphin complex. Not impossible, but difficult.

 

[Bocabear]

My only intent in asking was maybe there were some subclasses of postmodern architecture I was unaware of? Certainly not an attempt to patronize.

Philip Johnson PPG Plaza in Pittsburgh is also a Postmodern Gothic Revival building utilizing a "wall of windows" (though it actually is a curtain wall, @lazyboy97o )

My point was more in that you can still have a floor to ceiling window in a postmodern building that does not necessarily have a wall of windows or curtain wall. One can still do a punched opening large enough to essentially be floor to ceiling.

The arched glass at the top of Guild House by Venturi:

I'm fine with floor to ceiling windows in hotels, I'm fine with smaller "punched" openings, it all depends on execution.

As far as taking cues from Graves' designs on property to utilize in new hotels on property, I can't say I'm a big fan of doing that. I am personally not a huge fan of Graves' work overall, Swophin notwithstanding. I feel his designs were the most banal and immature of all the big name postmodern architects. Stern, Venturi/Scott Brown, Stirling, Moore, Tschumi, Koolhaus, Gehry, and on and on. He is pretty far down the list. If they want to imitate, there are better places to start.

And I may have misunderstood your post slightly, but yes I do agree that a monolithic slab of glazing is a tough aesthetic to reconcile with the existing Swolphin complex. Not impossible, but difficult.

I agree... Perhaps if they carried the one common element between the two properties over to the third tower : The wide awning stripe motif. This could be added to the box architecture at the Porte Cochere and or roof pavilion to tie the building thematically to the resort campus...

 

[Missing20K]

This seemed appropriate given the current discussion re: postmodern architecture.

Post Post-Modernism: 10 Projects that Reinterpret the Movement for the Digital Age

 

[Lensman]

My only intent in asking was maybe there were some subclasses of postmodern architecture I was unaware of? Certainly not an attempt to patronize.

Cool. No worries. I was actually a bit hesitant to use the term "subclasses" as I suspect there's no strict taxonomy as such.

I do look up to you on the architecture front. I'm still working my way through Learning from Las Vegas.

Philip Johnson PPG Plaza in Pittsburgh is also a Postmodern Gothic Revival building utilizing a "wall of windows" (though it actually is a curtain wall, @lazyboy97o )

Thanks for a great example!

BTW, I may be being a bit patronizing myself here, but I suspect that most people wouldn't be happy with most architecturally interesting buildings at WDW, from the complaints we hear of the Swan and Dolphin, or say, of Geary buildings.

Personally, I'm fine with eclectic mixtures. I don't want sameness.

My point was more in that you can still have a floor to ceiling window in a postmodern building that does not necessarily have a wall of windows or curtain wall. One can still do a punched opening large enough to essentially be floor to ceiling.

I agree. My point was that management can set requirements that make it extremely difficult to innovate within.

I also suspect that given a choice between architecturally interesting vs better economics, that management will choose economics, sadly.

I wonder if the building will be LEED certified and at what level?

As far as taking cues from Graves' designs on property to utilize in new hotels on property, I can't say I'm a big fan of doing that.

I'm not either, as you've probably already gathered.

And I may have misunderstood your post slightly, but yes I do agree that a monolithic slab of glazing is a tough aesthetic to reconcile with the existing Swolphin complex. Not impossible, but difficult.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get across. And that difficult means you have to pay for the brainpower or brilliance to overcome it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I wonder if the building will be LEED certified and at what level?

LEED Certification has really fallen out of favor outside of government projects where it is required. It’s an expensive process that doesn’t actually own the design strategies and technology. If one has certain green or sustainable objects it’s something your architect can do without paying the USGBC.

 

[Missing20K]

LEED Certification has really fallen out of favor outside of government projects where it is required. It’s an expensive process that doesn’t actually own the design strategies and technology. If one has certain green or sustainable objects it’s something your architect can do without paying the USGBC.

Ding, ding, ding. No one really cares anymore. Not worth the cost of certification. Nearly all the same materials and methods will still be used. It's mostly a marketing gimmick anymore.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Ding, ding, ding. No one really cares anymore. Not worth the cost of certification. Nearly all the same materials and methods will still be used. It's mostly a marketing gimmick anymore.

If there was any real love for EPCOT Center, I have thought it would be interesting to see Future World renovated with an aggressive eye towards sustainable strategies. Imagine Communicore not just as a poorly painted building, but an actual, functioning display of technology old and new as net zero buildings.

 

[Missing20K]

If there was any real love for EPCOT Center, I have thought it would be interesting to see Future World renovated with an aggressive eye towards sustainable strategies. Imagine Communicore not just as a poorly painted building, but an actual, functioning display of technology old and new as net zero buildings.

There just doesn't seem to be the foresight within the company that there used to be, in particular regarding EPCOT. But I think I'm stating the obvious at this point.

Would be really cool if they got hooked up with the Solar Decathalon folks and maybe had the finalists build their submissions in the area they put that awful playground.

 

[Lensman]

My point was more in that you can still have a floor to ceiling window in a postmodern building that does not necessarily have a wall of windows or curtain wall. One can still do a punched opening large enough to essentially be floor to ceiling.

The arched glass at the top of Guild House by Venturi:

I'm fine with floor to ceiling windows in hotels, I'm fine with smaller "punched" openings, it all depends on execution.

As far as taking cues from Graves' designs on property to utilize in new hotels on property, I can't say I'm a big fan of doing that. I am personally not a huge fan of Graves' work overall, Swophin notwithstanding. I feel his designs were the most banal and immature of all the big name postmodern architects. Stern, Venturi/Scott Brown, Stirling, Moore, Tschumi, Koolhaus, Gehry, and on and on. He is pretty far down the list. If they want to imitate, there are better places to start.

And I may have misunderstood your post slightly, but yes I do agree that a monolithic slab of glazing is a tough aesthetic to reconcile with the existing Swolphin complex. Not impossible, but difficult.

As per my previous reply, that was the intent of my original post. However, I've decided that your take on the problem is more interesting and that a follow-up post was required.

I recalled another Venturi project that has floor-to-ceiling windows. The Princeton Frist Campus Center, built as an addition to the Palmer Physical Laboratory.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...a/File:Princeton_Frist_Campus_Center_back.jpg

Here's the entrance on the other side that's from the original building.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/.../File:Palmer_Physical_Laboratory_entrance.jpg

We can join other in debating whether the result was a success.

I guess I've come around to the idea that it's certainly possible to architect a modern building that merges a set of requirements for its purpose and incorporates the context in which it will sit. But I suspect that:
1. You need to have this contextualization as a primary goal.
2. You need to have money to hire a top architectural firm to do the work.
3. You need to have the budget to absorb the extra construction costs that may be entailed in a potentially bespoke building - vs one that reuses common architectural components like a window wall. I bet these common components are what make the proposed building look like a suburban office building or metropolitan "luxury" condominium.
4. Many people on this forum would still be unhappy with the result. Ha!

Lastly, I thought I'd post some other interesting hotels I found in my virtual research.

Marriott at the Philadelphia Navy Yard

The Honeycomb Albany Bahamas:

I'm feeling shortchanged by Tishman!

BTW, I am not wed to anything that nods to the existing Swan or Dolphin, I just want interesting architecture.

 

[danlb_2000]

Preparation work to remove the tennis courts has started...

http://www.orlandoparksnews.com/2018/10/photos-crews-get-ready-to-demolish.html

 

[jt04]

Preparation work to remove the tennis courts has started...

http://www.orlandoparksnews.com/2018/10/photos-crews-get-ready-to-demolish.html

i like this hotel and don't believe it will be visible from WS. It will be hidden behind the Swan I think.

if this was the hotel originally rumored for the entrance to Epcot, I am happy they moved it. Not iconic enough.

 

[RandySavage]

It's among of the worst pieces of hotel architecture - in isolation and especially in context - for any Disney property. I'm embarassed for the "architects" and developers behind it or anyone who thinks positively it. Turns the EPCOT resort area into the same discordant mess that is the LBV Hotel Area.

Disney (and its affiliates) has gotten so bad at resort hotels.

 

[build_it]

@Lensman
If you're interested in those, here are a few other interesting hotel projects:

Check out more on Morpheus (and where the photo comes from): Morpheus Hotel

 

[jt04]

It's among of the worst pieces of hotel architecture - in isolation and especially in context - for any Disney property. I'm embarassed for the "architects" and developers behind it or anyone who thinks positively it. Turns the EPCOT resort area into the same discordant mess that is the LBV Hotel Area.

Disney (and its affiliates) has gotten so bad at resort hotels.

That is true. It is more fitting for LBV area.

 

[Missing20K]

It's among of the worst pieces of hotel architecture - in isolation and especially in context - for any Disney property. I'm embarassed for the "architects" and developers behind it or anyone who thinks positively it. Turns the EPCOT resort area into the same discordant mess that is the LBV Hotel Area.

Disney (and its affiliates) has gotten so bad at resort hotels.

My only issue with your take (and it's a good one, wholly appropriate) is that sometimes (read: all the time) the "architects" are beholden to the wishes and budget of the client. I assure you, if architects were left to their own devices, we would have a far more interesting built environment (and it would cost an arm and a leg). Alas, issues such as financing, ROI, RevPAR, budgets, the idiosyncrasies of a single person to make a decision, planning commissions, historic review boards, contractors and subcontractors (and their ability or inability to build bespoke items and at what cost), etc., etc.

Also (sorry, have to stick up for us architects and developers just a little here), there will still be lots of small details and problem solving that happens along the way to give the architects and developers a sense of pride and accomplishment (and deservedly so) that are not reflected in the finished building's design or aesthetic. I have personally worked on many buildings I thought were ugly as sin, but still have pride well up when I think about the battle it was to get them designed, drawn, and built.

Of course, Disney (and/or it's affiliates/partners, i.e. Tishman) doesn't necessarily have all of these same constraints, and quite frankly, should be able to (and have many times in the past) overcome said constraints to deliver some of the highest quality themed architecture. They have failed in this instance.

 

[eddie104]

My only issue with your take (and it's a good one, wholly appropriate) is that sometimes (read: all the time) the "architects" are beholden to the wishes and budget of the client. I assure you, if architects were left to their own devices, we would have a far more interesting built environment (and it would cost an arm and a leg). Alas, issues such as financing, ROI, RevPAR, budgets, the idiosyncrasies of a single person to make a decision, planning commissions, historic review boards, contractors and subcontractors (and their ability or inability to build bespoke items and at what cost), etc., etc.

Also (sorry, have to stick up for us architects and developers just a little here), there will still be lots of small details and problem solving that happens along the way to give the architects and developers a sense of pride and accomplishment (and deservedly so) that are not reflected in the finished building's design or aesthetic. I have personally worked on many buildings I thought were ugly as sin, but still have pride well up when I think about the battle it was to get them designed, drawn, and built.

Of course, Disney (and/or it's affiliates/partners, i.e. Tishman) doesn't necessarily have all of these same constraints, and quite frankly, should be able to (and have many times in the past) overcome said constraints to deliver some of the highest quality themed architecture. They have failed in this instance.

Wow thanks for providing a nice balanced perspective.

 

[Bocabear]

I can appreciate the architect's perspective, but that still does not excuse the poor design choices... Not blaming the architect for it but the entire team tasked with bringing the new tower to the resort... whether the blame be with Tishman or TDO or someone else, the fact remains it looks pretty pedestrian and at odds with the Michael Graves resort campus...

 

[build_it]

I can appreciate the architect's perspective, but that still does not excuse the poor design choices... Not blaming the architect for it but the entire team tasked with bringing the new tower to the resort... whether the blame be with Tishman or TDO or someone else, the fact remains it looks pretty pedestrian and at odds with the Michael Graves resort campus...

Or any Walt Disney World resort for that matter...

 

[Lensman]

Or any Walt Disney World resort for that matter...

Well, there is BLT, Riviera, and the new Coronado tower, but I do agree that this is even more conventional than those. Well, maybe not more conventional than BLT.

I'm also not sold on the decorated sheds of the All-Stars, Pop, and AoA, but that's another story.