Survivor 41 Discussion Thread

[PUSH]

Survivor 41 will air September 22 with a two hour premiere! Here is Jeff's announcement video. It's interesting because he said it's like a totally new game, like a brand new show. He said you could drop the 4 from 41. He said with all the time to think over the past year they "created a new game that's much more dangerous".




This makes me excited, but also very nervous. I don't want them to 100% reinvent the game. And I'm worried where their line of thinking has gone based on more recent decisions like the EoE. But I also have been saying since WaW that this hopefully gives them time to realize what actually makes people tune in to Survivor. I guess we'll see on September 22nd!

 

[artvandelay]

Survivor 41 will air September 22 with a two hour premiere! Here is Jeff's announcement video. It's interesting because he said it's like a totally new game, like a brand new show. He said you could drop the 4 from 41. He said with all the time to think over the past year they "created a new game that's much more dangerous".




This makes me excited, but also very nervous. I don't want them to 100% reinvent the game. And I'm worried where their line of thinking has gone based on more recent decisions like the EoE. But I also have been saying since WaW that this hopefully gives them time to realize what actually makes people tune in to Survivor. I guess we'll see on September 22nd!

It scared me too. When Dalton Ross asked former players what they’d like to change about the game of Survivor, a lot of them have said to simplify the game. Cut down the amount of idols, advantages, tribe swaps, EoE and fire tokens. Sounds like Jeff wants to change the game entirely.

 

[PUSH]

It scared me too. When Dalton Ross asked former players what they’d like to change about the game of Survivor, a lot of them have said to simplify the game. Cut down the amount of idols, advantages, tribe swaps, EoE and fire tokens. Sounds like Jeff wants to change the game entirely.

It's really hard to say until we see it. A lot will likely be different due to covid, too, where things could go back to normal in season 43 and 44. The current rumor is a 26 day season for 41 and 42. That's just 2/3 of a normal season. There have to be a lot of changes there, I'm sure, just to accommodate the shorter duration.

If they alter the game to where it's unrecognizable, these two seasons could very well be the last if they totally bomb. That's worse case scenario, but it still scares me. On the other hand, they could rebound the show in great ways. No matter what, I think seasons 41 and 42 are going to be very important for the future of Survivor. I've felt that way since the end of WaW. That felt like the cap to Survivor past and a catapult to a new era. And now with more than a year of time in between, it makes them feel even more crucial.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

There are a few articles about what's different. I imagine he's exaggerating a bit just to hype it up.

Jeff Probst Says Survivor 41 Is "Like The Monster In A Horror Movie" - Inside Survivor

Jeff Probst hypes up Survivor 41 as the "toughest" season ever and the dawn of a new era.

insidesurvivor.com

Spoiler: Jeff's comments

The rewards next season are also said to be minimal compared to recent seasons (gone are the feasts and banquets of the past). Even basic necessities like flint will be hard to come by, with tribes having to give up their flint every time they lose a challenge. A big theme of the season is expected to be “everything comes at a price”

If anything, the show could learn from the current season of Survivor South Africa which has some interesting approaches:

Spoiler: Survivor South Africa

There have been three tribe swaps in the first six episodes, which means players can't just form an earl alliance and coast through. They have to play differently.

It has an immunity island concept where players have to give something up to be immune and face some challenges with risks and rewards. It's not like Island of the Idols where they seemed to be handed advantages

 

[PUSH]

There are a few articles about what's different. I imagine he's exaggerating a bit just to hype it up.

Jeff Probst Says Survivor 41 Is "Like The Monster In A Horror Movie" - Inside Survivor

Jeff Probst hypes up Survivor 41 as the "toughest" season ever and the dawn of a new era.

insidesurvivor.com

Spoiler: Jeff's comments

The rewards next season are also said to be minimal compared to recent seasons (gone are the feasts and banquets of the past). Even basic necessities like flint will be hard to come by, with tribes having to give up their flint every time they lose a challenge. A big theme of the season is expected to be “everything comes at a price”

If anything, the show could learn from the current season of Survivor South Africa which has some interesting approaches:

Spoiler: Survivor South Africa

There have been three tribe swaps in the first six episodes, which means players can't just form an earl alliance and coast through. They have to play differently.

It has an immunity island concept where players have to give something up to be immune and face some challenges with risks and rewards. It's not like Island of the Idols where they seemed to be handed advantages

I wonder if they are making it harder physically because it's so much shorter than a normal season.

 

[dmw]

I wish there was some way to lessen the impact of alliances in the game. IMHO there is too much emphasis on that and it swings the votes so much. Maybe changing teams more frequently will reduce the impact of that part of the game. I look forward to seeing the changes in this next season.

The hint of changes got me thinking today... I have a radical idea for a complete change in game play: A point system. There would be more challenges - mostly individual, but some team. Players earn points from the challenges. At tribal, the player with the fewest points is out. But, points are not just earned from challenges. The vote during tribal changes from voting someone out to giving points to players for their social game. I'm not sure how many points each player would give at tribal, but they can only give the points to one player - writing that player's name on the paper and (to the camera only) sharing why that player deserves the points. And, to make it interesting, there needs to be some way that players lose points. Maybe the bottom three in an individual challenge lose points, or everyone on a losing team loses points? Or some way for a "villain" to sabotage individuals or teams so that they lose points? Oh, and keep the idols as that is always a great wild card for the vote.

That's my idea. Anyone else have ideas on how they would like to see the game changed (or thoughts on my idea)?

 

[PUSH]

I wish there was some way to lessen the impact of alliances in the game. IMHO there is too much emphasis on that and it swings the votes so much. Maybe changing teams more frequently will reduce the impact of that part of the game. I look forward to seeing the changes in this next season.

The hint of changes got me thinking today... I have a radical idea for a complete change in game play: A point system. There would be more challenges - mostly individual, but some team. Players earn points from the challenges. At tribal, the player with the fewest points is out. But, points are not just earned from challenges. The vote during tribal changes from voting someone out to giving points to players for their social game. I'm not sure how many points each player would give at tribal, but they can only give the points to one player - writing that player's name on the paper and (to the camera only) sharing why that player deserves the points. And, to make it interesting, there needs to be some way that players lose points. Maybe the bottom three in an individual challenge lose points, or everyone on a losing team loses points? Or some way for a "villain" to sabotage individuals or teams so that they lose points? Oh, and keep the idols as that is always a great wild card for the vote.

That's my idea. Anyone else have ideas on how they would like to see the game changed (or thoughts on my idea)?

Sarah Lacina had a similar idea in preseason press before WaW, where players would get votes throughout the season, and nobody was eliminated. The player at the end of the season with the most votes would win.

I think that would be extremely confusing to keep track of as a viewer. And that would make it much easier for a non-deserving player to win, as a lot of players would give points/votes to someone they don't view as a threat. For example, in Ghost Island a lot of people may give Angela or Jenna votes as strategy because Dom and Wendell were playing the better games, and giving points to them lowers your chance of winning.

I think the idea of voting someone off the island as it's been can not change, or it's not Survivor at all. That's why so many people were furious with the Edge of Extinction and Redemption Island, because players that were voted out could win the game.

In my opinion, the best era for gameplay was the late 20s. They may not have always been the best casts (*cough* Caramoan *cough*), but they had just enough idols, and there weren't too many twists. Seasons 25-29 might be one of the best stretches of consecutive seasons ever (minus Caramoan). It's certainly better than anything in the 30s, or the low 20. Maybe 15-18, but Gabon is very polarizing.

My ideal season would be:

• Two tribes until the merge
• Merge at 11 or 12 depending on how large the cast is
• One swap around episode 4 or 5
• Possibly one swap the episode before the merge
• No EoE, RI, GI, IoI, etc.
• No more than two idols in play at a time
• Cut the advantages that affect the vote (I don't mind challenge advantages, but there really aren't many great or memorable moments with extra votes, steal a vote, etc. that have had positive impacts on gameplay)
• Final 3 with the old Final Tribal Council questioning format
• Drop the final four fire making
• Bring back rewards like the auction (no advantages or clues in the auction)
• Bring back the reward challenges where they have to rank each other

But most of all, just focus on great casting and let the players make the show. Put trust in the casting process. The casting since DvG has been phenomenal, aside from maybe one or two really bad picks. We just don't get to see them because the twists and live tribals take away from the time we used to spend getting to know the cast.

 

[PUSH]

I'm literally 4 minutes and 33 seconds into my EoE rewatch, and noticed production told us exactly who was going to win right then. Jeff was talking to the players on the boat and said, "Survivor is unpredictable." As soon as he says that, the camera quickly and abruptly cuts to Chris.

 

[PUSH]

I just got through the merge episode of EoE. The premerge was actually pretty good, despite Manu/Lesu going to every Tribal Council. The merge episode is where the glaring problems with the season surface. The issues are not with the gameplay or the players, but rather the structure of the season. It's actually a pretty good cast. I won't say it's top tier, but it's definitely a good one. The issues come from giving idols to Devens and Chris when they return. They already got back in the game after being voted out. That's the biggest advantage they can get. They don't need another one. Especially when Chris gets back in so close to the end game. And then the other glaring issue is that two people on the jury have only spent time with Chris, and exactly 0 minutes and 0 seconds with Gavin or Julie. And Aubry spends so much more time with Chris than the others. That's not the fault of Gavin or Julie. They did what they needed to do to stay in. But they get punished for that by losing three jury votes.

Overall, I feel like this could have been a solid season had it been called Survivor 38, with no EoE. The cast is strong enough to stand on its own. I believe the Edge of Extinction is the worse production decision in the show's history. That's why I'm happy they are going with Survivor 41, 42, and so on. There are only so many themes that actually add to a season. And they've used them all up.

 

[Little Green Men]

Sidenote: BB23 is amazing this season. Very strategic and old school.

 

[artvandelay]

Sidenote: BB23 is amazing this season. Veery strategic and old school.

Great cast!

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

For anyone missing Survivor, Australian Survivor just launched with the first two episodes of Season 8.

Australian Survivor filmed in the Australian Outback due to COVID and is not to be confused with Survivor: The Australian Outback.

It's a great show, but is known for some very obvious editing and dubious twists. The season begins with an unheard of advantage, in terms of power, at the first tribal council.

Between that and South Africa, it's great to have three new episodes of Survivor every week.

 

[PUSH]

I finished the Edge of Extinction! Overall, the season is much better on a rewatch. However, the glaring issues still keep it relatively low in the rankings.

Chris is my lowest ranked winner. Initially after the season, I did feel like he played a big game in those final three days. Having more information due to post-season player interviews, that perception changed upon my rewatch. His big move of getting Lauren to play the idol for him was unnecessary. He didn't need it, and it just sunk Lauren's game. IMO that actually hurt his chances of getting to the final three. Lauren was in his court and willing to work with him. Ultimately it all worked out for Chris, but he cut off a path and an ally that could get him to the final three. Then he got to play an idol that was gifted to him. He got the second half back from Devens, but that was just a mistake on Devens' part. It was not savvy gameplay from Chris. And then he gave up immunity to make fire against Devens. I do not personally put much weight on that move. I'm much more impressed by social gameplay.

Chris also has a pretty dull social game, at least from what we saw on screen. His only social gameplay came from the information other jury members gave him on the Edge. He was able to pretty much make up whatever he wanted to further his game. That is a massive advantage. Chris knew everything that was going on. Really, there was pretty much no way Chris could have screwed it up. The jury (and production via the free idol) gave him the road map to win. And obviously that is the fundamental flaw of the season. Chris' win definitely has an asterisk on it in my book. Even Devens, who came back from the Edge, said during the final jury questioning how much tougher it is in the game.

Gavin played a solid game, but he didn't have a big move he could credit as his own. He had a solid final Tribal Council performance, except for when he discredited the journey of the EoE. As correct as he was, you can't say that to a group of people who have been on the Edge the majority of the time. They are seeing themselves in Chris already. You can't discredit them.

Julie was also all over the place with her gameplay. She built a couple solid connections with Ron and Lauren that got her far, but she really didn't have strong enough bonds with anyone else.

Overall, it was a pretty weak final three, which is why Chris probably won. If you put Devens, Lauren, or Victoria there (the three previous boots), I think there could be a different outcome.

During my first watch of the season, I wasn't a huge Devens fan. I found him to be too over the top, and he did things that were on the border of crossing the line. I had the same feeling watching this time. When he came at Ron and Julie for the fake advantage, I felt it was too much to tell everyone they were trying to embarrass him in front of his wife and kids and make him look like a fool. But then later on in the season he does the same thing to Julie and Lauren with the fake idols. And this time it felt like his was more about making them look stupid. It's essentially what Angelina does to Alison a season prior in DvG. Angelina took a lot of heat for it, but Devens really didn't take any. His constant joking got on my nerves, too. It's just not for me.

From a gameplay perspective, I remember Rick being this big player who made great moves. And watching through this time, I complete disagree with that. You can't discredit his immunity wins and idol finds, but strategically he had almost nothing going. David wanted him to join forces with the old Lesu when he got back into the game, but Rick was too emotionally hurt to do it. It ended up being a bad move on his part. He was left out of the vote, and he cut ties with a group that could have gotten him far into the game without such a big target on his back. He would have had David, Kelley, and Wardog in front of him as shields. He also got the credit for playing his idol when Ron got voted out. In reality, that was Victoria's plan, and Lauren was the second in command there. In all, he really had no idea who was going home at all, but got credit for almost all of the votes. It was crazy how it all worked out in his favor. For that reason, Rick took a big drop in my player rankings.

Wardog also sunk his game when he blindsided Kelley. He had absolutely no path to the end without going deeper with her and Lauren. Those three had just gotten in position to run the game, and he blows that up. He has some strategic qualities, but he made a pretty dumb move.

I think Victoria is one of the most under-edited players of all-time. She seemed to really be controlling a lot of the game, but we didn't get to see much of it. She had some big moves with voting out Aubry, which was masterful, and she was also the one to get Eric voted out. I would love to see Victoria play again.

I also love Ron Clark. He's a really fun villain. I hope he plays again. Lauren, too. She was such a fun player, and until she made the mistake of giving up her idol, she played an extremely strong game.

Wendy was a crazy player who added some fun to what could have been a pretty boring premerge.

The "I'm jumping ship!" tribal council was great. I liked it better this time around than in the real time. It was really fun to watch. Ron throws Victoria's name out when she was right there. Kelley and David turn to each other and David says, "Hi... remember me?" Kelley admits the vote was supposed to be for David. A lot of great moments.

Overall, the cast was pretty darn good. We just ended up with some of the "average" players at the very end, and it worked out in Chris' favor. I really want to see Victoria, Lauren, Ron and Wardog play again. I feel like they have kind of been forgotten since their season aired, but they are really interesting characters. I'd also love to see Kelley, David, and Aubry play again.

My hot take is that I don't care to see Rick again. I feel like we got all we are going to get from him, and this was his best possible outcome.

In my rankings, this season moved from 39th up to 30th. Take away Chris winning, and it would probably be somewhere around 20.

This season actually has quite a few players in my top 100. Kelley at #23 (mostly based on Cambodia), Aubry at #25 (mostly based on Kaoh Rong), and David at #26 (mainly based on MvGX, but I feel like he played a really strong game here for the cards he was dealt... he played the best game out of any of the returnees this season IMO). I have Victoria at #73, Ron at #94, and Lauren at #96. Rick is at #98. He was somewhere in the 40s before rewatching the season. Wardog is at #100. That's 8 players of the 18 that played who are in my top 100. Granted, three of them are mostly based on previous seasons, but still.

Joe is at 113, Gavin at 130, Julie at 194, and Chris at 245. I actually have Julia, Aurora, and Eric ranked above Chris, too.

Up next... Island of the Idols. Yikes...

 

[PUSH]

I'm three episodes into my Island of the Idols rewatch. Some initial thoughts and reactions:

1. Dan is getting way too much screen time. I don't know why production thought it'd be a good idea showing him so much when they knew what was going to happen.
2. Dan should have been talked to in the first couples days, after Kellee approached him about being uncomfortable with him touching her.
3. The challenges are really fun so far. Very creative, involve a lot of teamwork.
4. The Island of the Idols is the cheesiest thing ever. Rob's face says it all. He knows how ridiculous it is.
5. It's such a shame that there is such a strong female cast, and it ended up coming down to two men at the end.
6. Janet is amazing. What a beast.
7. Karishma's "cut" in episode three was very exaggerated. There's no way she could see bone. But yeah, the tribe should have come to check on her.
8. There was nothing shown on screen to make us believe Ronnie was a potential first boot. It came out of nowhere. There were no discussions shown where his name came up. Poor editing decision there.
9. Rob and Sandra in their "hot box" is pretty entertaining and funny, not gonna lie.
10. The challenges at the IoI are not equal by a long shot.
11. Kellee's move to hide her idol in her hair, then cry to get the heat off her when we returned was genius. Honestly it was a fantastic strategic move, and so impressive she was able to do that on command.
12. Molly was labeled at "Parvati 2.0", and normally I don't see any resemblance, but I did see a lot of Parvati in Molly. They aren't the same person, but I saw it. I like Molly and would be shocked if she'd play again, but I would welcome it.
13. Dean is already being Dean. "We'll just split the votes." When the rest of the tribe is standing there.

 

[PUSH]

I watched the merge episode of IoI. It really is sickening. In the confessional where Kellee is telling the producer what happened, and she is breaking down crying, that was her telling production that Dan is a problem that needs to be dealt with. It shouldn't take anything more than that.

Later on, production should have 100% stepped in, especially once the lines between gameplay and real life got muddied. There was not information on what was happening for everyone to make a good decision. The game does not lend itself to be one where there is clear communication. In a situation like this, production needs to step in and do something. Dan should have been removed from the game right then and there. That way Kellee and Janet don't have to decide between their games and their safety and wellbeing. Yes, it might mess up the games of other players, but that's not a reason to keep him there.

I know post-season Missy and Elizabeth both said they didn't know what was happening, and all the information coming from production was very vague. I believe that, but it did feel like Missy and Elizabeth crossed a line at some point. They used this to advance their games. I understand why they did. It was really their only choice to keep moving forward in the game. But again, that's where production should have never let it get to that point.

The aftermath following the Kellee blindside was heartbreaking. I felt for Janet. She talks to Dan, Dan talks to Missy and Elizabeth. They deny what they said. I understand that, too, because they don't want to sink their games. Why I don't agree with is them pushing Janet as the liar, saying she made it up to advance her game. That is 100% crossing a line. Again, production should have never let it get to that point. Dan then goes back to Janet, then Janet has to confront Missy and Elizabeth. Elizabeth then tells the truth and again tries to put it back on Janet after Janet leaves.

The whole thing was a muddied mess where gameplay and intense real world problems came together. Never should that be allowed to happen when it is affecting someone's personal safety and security. Dan should have been pulled at the merge, then the players go from there. Production really dropped the ball and forced several players to make bad decisions that affected their personal image and their games.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Survivor South Africa just aired an episode many people are calling one of the best Survivor episodes of all time.

 

[PUSH]

I finished Island of the Idols. I've already posted about the Dan stuff, so I'm going to limit that in this post. It's obviously a major problem with the season and a huge reason it will rank pretty low on my season rankings. But other than that...

Overall the season was better in some aspects than I remember it being, and worse on others. I remember being impressed with the cast outside of Dan. I felt like they all really knew how to play the game at a high level. On the rewatch, I have changed that stance. There were a lot of strong characters. You have Elaine, Missy, Karishma, Noura, and Vince who I would put in the same category: big characters who lacked at least one major piece of the game.

Elaine was great, and I loved her report with Jeff. But she wasn't much of a strategic player. Missy was all strategy, but she was extremely cold and got hostile when others weren't playing the same way. Karishma had a fantastic story arc, but she didn't have the physical element, and she lacked socially. Noura was a big character, but she didn't have any social skills or strategic chops. Vince was a flashy character for the few episodes he was around for, but he was not a strategic or social player.

Tommy played a decent game, but it almost felt like the game just fell into the laps of him and Lauren. Yes, they created the social bonds, but it felt like they didn't have to worked very hard for it.

Kellee was by far the best strategic player of the season, and it was so disappointing she had to go out the way she did. If it wasn't for that, it makes me wonder how things would have played out. Would she have played one of her two idols? I'm not sure. I doubt she wants to come back, but I would love to see her play again.

IMO, Janet was the best all around player. She was great socially, and she was a competent strategic player. She actually exceeded my expectations strategically, based on what I remembered from the original viewing. If it wasn't for the idol nullifier, Janet would be the winner.

The Island of the Idols was pretty boring on the rewatch. It had some fun moments, but I really felt like it added next to nothing to the season. Players got idols and advantages, and most of them were used incorrectly, or not used at all. Losing your vote didn't factor into anything at all. And when the advantages were used, it ruined one of the best stories in Survivor history... that being Janet playing an idol to go win at fire and win the game.

The majority of the post-merge was extremely predictable. After Karishma played her idol (which was the high point of the season, IMO), you know exactly what's going to happen each vote. Karishma goes home, then Elaine, (Dan gets pulled), you can see Janet's idol getting nullified from a mile away, you know Lauren is going to lose fire, and then you know exactly what will happen at the final vote.

Aside from Karishma playing her idol, the other great part of this season is Kellee giving her idol to Dean to get Jack voted out. It was pretty awesome seeing Kellee derive that plan in the middle of her confessional. It was so cool, and it was some extremely high level thinking on her part. The only problem was when Noura spilled the beans immediately after they got back to camp.

This season feels like a lot of average players, some with big personalities, playing average games. There's really nothing special about the games that any of them played. Even after just watching the season, if you asked me to name the best move from Tommy, Dean, Lauren, Janet, or really most people's games... I couldn't tell you. It just felt flat.

The only players I would love to see play again are Janet, Kellee, and Molly. I doubt Kellee would ever come back. I think Janet missed her best shot to win the game. And I don't think Molly would ever be asked back. I wouldn't mind seeing Elaine, Karishma, Dean or Jason play again. Lauren maybe, too, but I feel like she's been overrated by the Survivor community.

In my season rankings, Island of the Idols moved up one spot from 40 to 39. The only season below it is Thailand.

Tommy ranks as my 27th best winner, which is based solely on the seasons each player won. Not their collective whole.

Two players from IoI cracked my top 100, but they were pretty low. I have Janet at 94, and Tommy at 95.

Up next is Winners at War. Then I will have watched every season twice! I'll be able to finish my season, winner, and all-time player rankings. I'll go back and adjust all the lists as needed. I'm not going to know what to do with myself when it's all done.

 

[arich35]

I am interested to see how the episodes will flow with the shorter season. Kind of hoping we will get a lot more strategy talk

 

[PUSH]

I am interested to see how the episodes will flow with the shorter season. Kind of hoping we will get a lot more strategy talk

Jeff has really emphasized lately that it will be a very tough and difficult season physically. I think he's really trying to gear conversation away from this being an easier season than before. He doesn't want seasons 41 and 42 to have asterisks next to them.

As far as how they can edit it together, they can probably do that without the viewer realizing the schedule is changing. Jeff said it's a brand new game, though, so maybe they'll just play into that.

 

[arich35]

Jeff has really emphasized lately that it will be a very tough and difficult season physically. I think he's really trying to gear conversation away from this being an easier season than before. He doesn't want seasons 41 and 42 to have asterisks next to them.

As far as how they can edit it together, they can probably do that without the viewer realizing the schedule is changing. Jeff said it's a brand new game, though, so maybe they'll just play into that.

I haven't seen if it is the same amount of episodes or not, I assume so. The game will be a lot quicker so not as much down time or time to strategize. I am just looking forward to Survivor being back but I am worried with all the talk from Jeff and lower amount of days it is going to end up being a lot different.