State soliciting bids for I-Drive rail; closes at end of month; may go to Disney

[TimeTrip]

I was a huge monorail fan until we built one in Las Vegas, now I'm convinced they are not financially viable in ANY situation for mass transit. The Las Vegas strip / Convention Center route was supposed to be a guaranteed success because it's one of the heaviest traveled corridors in the country but it's failed miserably.

IMO the main reason the Vegas monorail failed is the routing. They're on the backside of the casinos. Why bother? Take a taxi to the front door.

 

[bhg469]

I was a huge monorail fan until we built one in Las Vegas, now I'm convinced they are not financially viable in ANY situation for mass transit. The Las Vegas strip / Convention Center route was supposed to be a guaranteed success because it's one of the heaviest traveled corridors in the country but it's failed miserably. What was once a privately funded monorail backed by Nevada bonds is now a huge financial failure that is ultimately going to fall on the tax payers to pay off and there is even talk that demolishing the entire system may be cheaper in the long term than maintaining it.

I am also very suspect of the $315 million cost, monorails typically cost about $150 million a mile and every other MagLev proposal I've read about was in the billions.

Call me jaded because our system failed so miserably but I'd be very shocked if your contract doesn't go to a "friend" of your politicians and you aren't left with a money pit that tax payers are ultimately on the hook for.

Knowing what I know now I wish we'd have put in a "boring" ground based light rail like Salt Lake City has, it's cheap, it's reliable, and it's economically feasible.

The Vegas monorail crossed a lot of different property lines in a very small area, it was bound to be a very difficult system to run.

 

[jt04]

American Maglev's proposal to operate a train includes three phases. Phase 1 is airport to OCCC.

Phase 2 is from MCO to Medical City, Lake Nona - 4.9 miles, 10 minutes travel time.

Phase 3 would be Medical City to WDW with three to four stations - 19.4 miles, 22 minutes travel time.

Thus, a total of 4 to 5 stations - 24.3 miles. Estimated travel time 32 min plus whatever the instation time at Lake Nona is.

Obviously this is a process that is in flux. I think my idea would be the most practical. With a second leg from MCO's north terminal that serves the Convention Center, Sea World and Uni. MAGLEV? Really?

 

[lazyboy97o]

IMO the main reason the Vegas monorail failed is the routing. They're on the backside of the casinos. Why bother? Take a taxi to the front door.

One of the big components to making mass transit viable is making driving miserable. A train or bus that is just as fast as driving will not work and you're rarely going to have opportunities to significantly exceed travel times. In order for this project to work the parking fees around the Convention Center will need to skyrocket.

 

[VitaminjTX]

IMO the main reason the Vegas monorail failed is the routing. They're on the backside of the casinos. Why bother? Take a taxi to the front door.

You hit the nail on the head. IMHO, the Vegas monorail is a fail because of the location.

 

[Cesar R M]

One of the big components to making mass transit viable is making driving miserable. A train or bus that is just as fast as driving will not work and you're rarely going to have opportunities to significantly exceed travel times. In order for this project to work the parking fees around the Convention Center will need to skyrocket.

It might happen.. just look at DI$NEY new parking fees.. and UNIVER$AL wasnt far behind.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It might happen.. just look at DI$NEY new parking fees.. and UNIVER$AL wasnt far behind.

I'm thinking more in the range of at least $50/day given that the theme parks are nearing $20/day. The prices need to be too much for not only many tourists, but also many conventioneers who are often traveling at their employers expense.

 

[fillerup]

Obviously this is a process that is in flux. I think my idea would be the most practical. With a second leg from MCO's north terminal that serves the Convention Center, Sea World and Uni. MAGLEV? Really?

Unfortunately, a train station has only every been considered for the South terminal because of the logistics at the existing terminal. I'm pretty certain also that the FAA even objected, saying that building at the North side could interfere with flight operations.

So that leaves us with a not so convenient multi-step process to get to Disney. Get off your plane, get luggage, get to the Peoplemover to get to the train station a mile away, take a 35 to 40 minute ride to the Disney station and then get a bus to your hotel.

All this at a cost of around $20 a head - family of four $160 round trip. A taxi's going to be much cheaper and probably a lot quicker.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

IMO the main reason the Vegas monorail failed is the routing. They're on the backside of the casinos. Why bother? Take a taxi to the front door.

True, but it illustrates form over function. Prior to the monorail there was a lot of talk of dedicated bus lanes or even a light rail line down the middle of LV Blvd (not just the strip itself but the entire length from where the M is now to the speedway) but people didn't like the idea because it was outdated and Las Vegas is a 21st century city. The monorail was chosen not because it was a better mass transit systems but because it was meant to be a symbol of an exciting city.

There's a chance the monorail could have worked if they put it on the strip but because of the pedestrian walkways that was not possible, even if they could have put it down the center of the strip would anyone here really want to look out their hotel window and see a monorail beam instead of a Pyramid, the New York skyline, the Eiffel tower or the fountains of Bellagio? Monorails are an eyesore!

It was doomed from the start but people kept lobbying for it, and ignoring the gigantic cost, because it was the "modern" solution. I blame Disney, monorails are a fun way to get from point a to point b in a theme park but once you start factoring in dozens of stations and stops it quickly becomes nothing more than an incredibly expensive bus in the sky.

 

[ryguy]

I think a direct line from mco to the convention center is all that is needed. Anything else could be a disaster. Most convention goers don't stray to far from the conference. If they do stray they can take a cab to where ever it is they are going.

Don't get me wrong taking a monorail from MCO to WDW would be great, but can't see it happening.

 

[JungleTrekFan]

Long way to go before mass transit by rail is really feasible.
http://bearingdrift.com/2012/02/22/the-sinking-tide/

Transportation in any form is expensive, and the greater good must pay (taxes) for it to even exist. That is regardless if it is a train, bus, personal car or monorail. Car owners pay to use their car buy physically owning one and fixing it and buying its fuel, but they never directly pay for the roads they use or the maintenance of those roads. Roads and bridges are very expensive to build and engineer. Which is why in Florida we have toll roads going through many of our roads. Tolls are one way to pay, taxes are another, taxing gas higher is also a way, but none of this is what the public wants, which is to not have to pay for roads or their maintenance.

This is why when i try to convince the importance of public transit to others, its not about cost thats important, its the quality of life of all the people that will be effected by the system. Well planned and designed public transportation brings a much greater quality of life to its users and the surrounding areas that it serves.

But then you ask, so how do we pay for it? Honestly, I believe we do not pay enough taxes, especially in Florida with its no income tax law. I know my view is definitely in the minority, but comparatively to other urban nations, like European nations, we pay very little taxes. That stems from our individualism culture, but i think having a tax at least on car users, whether it is with tolls or on gas, parking etc., and having that money directly funding public transit projects would be key for better transportation options in the US.

 

[JungleTrekFan]

I'm thinking more in the range of at least $50/day given that the theme parks are nearing $20/day. The prices need to be too much for not only many tourists, but also many conventioneers who are often traveling at their employers expense.

I think parking alone would not drive for public transit, cause the individual could easily pay to park at Pointe Orlando or not pay at all for most places along i-drive. Parking prices usually leads to people either not going or finding an alternative that isn’t too inconvenient. Now adding another toll on 528 between the airport and the convention center could do it, as well as raising the toll, which does happen every so often.

I think a key issue that isn’t being looked at is that MegaCon was not a business convention, these were not just business men and women from NY or CA, etc. MegaCon had a very large local turn out. So not only does there need to be transportation from OIA to OCCC, but connections to the surrounding area.

American Maglev's proposal to operate a train includes three phases. Phase 1 is airport to OCCC.

Phase 2 is from MCO to Medical City, Lake Nona - 4.9 miles, 10 minutes travel time.

Phase 3 would be Medical City to WDW with three to four stations - 19.4 miles, 22 minutes travel time.

Thus, a total of 4 to 5 stations - 24.3 miles. Estimated travel time 32 min plus whatever the instation time at Lake Nona is.

I think that is a start, but if you do not have the disney end of the line connect back to sea world and OCCC, then those extra stops along 417 for local traffic will not be very helpful to the citizens of the greater orlando area. Disney and Lake Nona does provide a multitude of jobs, but so does SeaWorld and OCCC and the i drive area. Sea world, Disney, and Universal are the largest employers in that area, connecting them to the outlying communities would greatly help the local area and help relive a lot of congestion on roads.

 

[jt04]

Unfortunately, a train station has only every been considered for the South terminal because of the logistics at the existing terminal. I'm pretty certain also that the FAA even objected, saying that building at the North side could interfere with flight operations.

So that leaves us with a not so convenient multi-step process to get to Disney. Get off your plane, get luggage, get to the Peoplemover to get to the train station a mile away, take a 35 to 40 minute ride to the Disney station and then get a bus to your hotel.

All this at a cost of around $20 a head - family of four $160 round trip. A taxi's going to be much cheaper and probably a lot quicker.

Oh yeah, I forgot the Bee Line and I-4 never get grid locked.

Obviously your bags will be checked through to your hotel just as they are now with ME.

I bet with a modern train, such as are used for IC trains in Europe, you are actually only talking a 12 to 15 minute train ride.

And it would cost guests about the same as the ME does.

 

[raymusiccity]

True, but it illustrates form over function. Prior to the monorail there was a lot of talk of dedicated bus lanes or even a light rail line down the middle of LV Blvd (not just the strip itself but the entire length from where the M is now to the speedway) but people didn't like the idea because it was outdated and Las Vegas is a 21st century city. The monorail was chosen not because it was a better mass transit systems but because it was meant to be a symbol of an exciting city.

There's a chance the monorail could have worked if they put it on the strip but because of the pedestrian walkways that was not possible, even if they could have put it down the center of the strip would anyone here really want to look out their hotel window and see a monorail beam instead of a Pyramid, the New York skyline, the Eiffel tower or the fountains of Bellagio? Monorails are an eyesore!

It was doomed from the start but people kept lobbying for it, and ignoring the gigantic cost, because it was the "modern" solution. I blame Disney, monorails are a fun way to get from point a to point b in a theme park but once you start factoring in dozens of stations and stops it quickly becomes nothing more than an incredibly expensive bus in the sky.

I think most tourists would disagree with your comments that 'monorails are an eyesore!" The lakeside view from BLT faces the monorail, and all of the kids and adults alike, enjoy seeing the monorails glide in and out of the Contemporary Resort.

 

[JungleTrekFan]

Oh yeah, I forgot the Bee Line and I-4 never get grid locked.

Obviously your bags will be checked through to your hotel just as they are now with ME.

I bet with a modern train, such as are used for IC trains in Europe, you are actually only talking a 12 to 15 minute train ride.

And it would cost guests about the same as the ME does.

High speed trains would be useless here, since the distance is so small. High speed (200 km/h or 124 mph is what the ICs are quoted at top speed) is great for going between major cities, but not a few miles away. Light rail is really the scale that is being looked at.

 

[PeterAlt]

Morning thoughts:

Some people are obsessed with impractical things that will never ever help anybody such as sports teams. I am obsessed with things that will someday help people such as transportation. Okay carry-on…

 

[PeterAlt]

I was a huge monorail fan until we built one in Las Vegas, now I'm convinced they are not financially viable in ANY situation for mass transit. The Las Vegas strip / Convention Center route was supposed to be a guaranteed success because it's one of the heaviest traveled corridors in the country but it's failed miserably. What was once a privately funded monorail backed by Nevada bonds is now a huge financial failure that is ultimately going to fall on the tax payers to pay off and there is even talk that demolishing the entire system may be cheaper in the long term than maintaining it.

I am also very suspect of the $315 million cost, monorails typically cost about $150 million a mile and every other MagLev proposal I've read about was in the billions.

Call me jaded because our system failed so miserably but I'd be very shocked if your contract doesn't go to a "friend" of your politicians and you aren't left with a money pit that tax payers are ultimately on the hook for.

Knowing what I know now I wish we'd have put in a "boring" ground based light rail like Salt Lake City has, it's cheap, it's reliable, and it's economically feasible.

The case with the LV monorail isn't so cut and dry. First, consider the first segment that was built by the two hotel operators "out of pocket" and no problems. The problems happened when the rest of it was built. They engineered parts of it wrong. Had to be re-engineered at a premium price because of how the contracts were set up. These are bureaucratic problems that would have happened regardless of the type of system being built. It could have been avoided if the monorail organization hired a director with experience constructing big projects like this.

Also, it should have started at the airport. In Miami, we have Metrorail, an elevated electric heavy rail system. Its numbers were less than impressive for years. Then, a couple of years ago, they extended it to Miami International Airport and its ridership figures jumped up 800% and the monthly numbers show it hasn't stopped growing since...

 

[PeterAlt]

IMO the main reason the Vegas monorail failed is the routing. They're on the backside of the casinos. Why bother? Take a taxi to the front door.

Also, they have all those people mover systems. They should have integrated all of those into a single system.

 

[FerretAfros]

IMO the main reason the Vegas monorail failed is the routing. They're on the backside of the casinos. Why bother? Take a taxi to the front door.

I agree that the corridor was a huge mistake. They chose a monorail instead of a more traditional system because it's sleek and sexy. And then they hid it from public view by putting it behind a bunch of plain big-box structures and parking garages. As a result, it's out of sight and out of mind. Like everything in Vegas, there's a sense of novelty to a monorail, but when you put it in the least appealing place possible, you lose a lot of that

I understand the allure to the casinos of the additional foot traffic going through to get on board, but putting it in the back of the hotels made it fail because it essentially only serves one side of the street. Most of the stations are more than 0.25mi from Las Vegas Blvd, which is generally considered to be what people will willfully walk (0.25-0.5mi is the upper limit, which is why transit stations are typically ~0.75mi apart). By building it back there, they instantly lost the ridership of anybody who is originating or ending their trip on the west side of the street. Building it in the middle of the street (and possibly taking up some lanes for stations, and making street traffic worse in the process) would have allowed for a much higher ridership

And remember that this isn't your normal peaceful walk through your neighborhood to the local elementary school, it's a high-stimulation environment that's constantly trying to grab your attention; especially on vacation, people want the least-stressful option, and searching through a big casino for a monorail in the back isn't it

The Vegas monorail crossed a lot of different property lines in a very small area, it was bound to be a very difficult system to run.

This is going to be a problem anywhere with any transit system. To get to destinations, you need to cut through some existing areas, and people are going to be upset about it. It's not unique to Vegas in any way

Additionally, the parcels along the Strip are huge by any standard. For example, Planet Hollywood has about 0.15mi of streetfront, the Bellagio has about 0.25mi, and Caesars Palace has about 0.33mi. In most urban areas, you're looking at multiple property owners within each 0.1mi block

Looking at the alignment, what kills it isn't the number of properties, but how differently spaced the backs of the buildings are. As a result, it's constantly twisting and turning to match the existing structures. Had it been built along the street (like pretty much every other transit system ever created), it would have been able to take a more-or-less straight path, which leads to easier and higher-speed operations

 

[jt04]

The case with the LV monorail isn't so cut and dry. First, consider the first segment that was built by the two hotel operators "out of pocket" and no problems. The problems happened when the rest of it was built. They engineered parts of it wrong. Had to be re-engineered at a premium price because of how the contracts were set up. These are bureaucratic problems that would have happened regardless of the type of system being built. It could have been avoided if the monorail organization hired a director with experience constructing big projects like this.

Also, it should have started at the airport. In Miami, we have Metrorail, an elevated electric heavy rail system. Its numbers were less than impressive for years. Then, a couple of years ago, they extended it to Miami International Airport and its ridership figures jumped up 800% and the monthly numbers show it hasn't stopped growing since...

Yes, great test of the potential of transportation systems when tailored to the market. Should be getting the attention of the private sector on the potential of such systems. That is the best case scenario for seeing fast deployment everywhere.