Nothing against your comment. You are right Endgame is bananas benchmark.
But you do realize - we're talking about Star Wars. The movie that invented the benchmark. Well, at least a long time ago, in a galaxy far away - it did.
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Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker Reactions: SPOILERS
- Thread starter Animaniac93-98
- Start date
Nothing against your comment. You are right Endgame is bananas benchmark.
But you do realize - we're talking about Star Wars. The movie that invented the benchmark. Well, at least a long time ago, in a galaxy far away - it did.
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
Both Abrams and Johnson have been exposed at least...
I saw NOTHING to indicate they had the chops to write good original Star Wars prior...and that has been proven out
flynnibus
Premium Member
If his series would have been more TLJ... I really don't care what he's done elsewhere... I don't like his SW output and wouldn't be interested in more.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I’m not (not) blaming the directors. They are very much getting 95% of the blame along with Kennedy.
JJ delivered to us fan-fiction the film and that is his fault obviously, but fans had very clear wants and needs in the story they had written for the trio over 30 years.
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
I figured this would happen if this thing didn’t rake...all of a sudden Star Wars is “any old action franchise” and its unrealistic to expect more...
Fast and the furious in space
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
Neither is the business world...or the NYSE...or Disney management
The crazy thing is that there are STILL people on this board that thinks he’s making a “trilogy”...
I figured this would happen if this thing didn’t rake...all of a sudden Star Wars is “any old action franchise” and its unrealistic to expect more...
Fast and the furious in space
At least it's not "Revenge of the Nerds" - at least not yet, anyways. Johnson's trilogy might have gotten us there though.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I agree. Hence comparing TFA to The Avengers. Endgame is more a demonstration of how an already big thing can build if the intervening is well received.
Just as a counter point, I would not call Avatar 2 a failure if it makes 1.5 billion (to Avatar’s equally bananas benchmark).
The progression to RotS is a dissapointment, both critically and financially, but in the coming months I’m sure we’ll start to discuss that it’s a flop, which isn’t the same thing exactly. Solo flopped.
flynnibus
Premium Member
I don't consider doing things that 'fit' the existing stories and lore 'fan-fiction'... I consider it 'consistency and easy onboarding'
All the cameos and tying back to random SW elements is 'fan service' stuff that is neat, but unless it's actually progressing the stories or characters I really could care less about. I think people get way too hung up on all that crap in the era of YT reviewers who break all that stuff down ad nauseum.
I don't lump issues like Luke's character, Rey's character, the plot arcs, etc in with these 'fan service' kind of discussions. They are simple writing topics and fitting with the SW universe. It's about making an interesting story and characters that grab you. Then... putting it all in a medium that is engaging and moving. These are the kinds of problems I have with the films.. from TFA complete freaking re-hash of earlier SW movies and tropes... to TLJ non-sense... to ROS's smorgasbord directing and writing.
All the cameos and tying back to random SW elements is 'fan service' stuff that is neat, but unless it's actually progressing the stories or characters I really could care less about. I think people get way too hung up on all that crap in the era of YT reviewers who break all that stuff down ad nauseum.
I don't lump issues like Luke's character, Rey's character, the plot arcs, etc in with these 'fan service' kind of discussions. They are simple writing topics and fitting with the SW universe. It's about making an interesting story and characters that grab you. Then... putting it all in a medium that is engaging and moving. These are the kinds of problems I have with the films.. from TFA complete freaking re-hash of earlier SW movies and tropes... to TLJ non-sense... to ROS's smorgasbord directing and writing.
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
It’s tracking to perform worse than all Star Wars except attack of the clones and solo...
That’s just the hard reality of it right now.
Something crazy would have to happen for this to NOT be a Tremendous disappointment for Disney.
It affects everything...consumer products...parks...the streaming service...
That’s the issue here
^
This
I do think some re-hash was necessary though. I could have lived without the non-sense and smorgasbord.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
That’s like saying Kevin Feige shouldn’t do Star Wars because the Lion King was a bland retelling.
Rian was not a good fit for a middle chapter of a trilogy of a 40 year 9 film saga.
But his other output is actually great, he was slotted into episode 8 by a team that should have just left him to his own arms length story.
I think when the emotion fades years from now people will realize that Rian wasn’t the true problem. He IS a good director and independent story teller. He just wasn’t telling an independent story and that’s very much on Disney for hiring someone for a role they shouldn’t have.
Screamface
Well-Known Member
Here's the thing, I think he displayed very little creativity with TLJ. I don't think he has the creativity for Star Wars. There's more interesting new stuff in JJ's films, than in RJs.
TLJ is, "The Resistance needs to escape. They escaped. No, they didn't. They need to escape again. What's the plan? Here's a plan. It didn't work. Here's the real plan. It's not working. The Rebels now need to escape and they escape."
When TESB did this escaping plot, it was way more interesting, with asteroid fields etc. Not, "we're low on gas."
Rey's plot is a truncated version fo Luke's from TESB and ROTJ. Minus the most interesting parts. It's stripped-down, simplified and relies on you knowing the beats. The young jedi student goes to the mentor, has a connection to the bad guy, wants to redeem them. Something something throne room scene." It's subversion is only there because it's retelling the same story. Rey only wants to redeem Kylo because that's what the young Jedi does in Star Wars.
Key to understanding TLJ is knowing that it's broken down elements of the plot to the premise of the original trilogy. TFA may have been a soft remake in big ideas, TLJ literally approaches it as if it's telling the exact same story, but simplified. Then goes, "oh you thought that was going to happen, well it didn't."
This is why Luke sucks in that film. RJ wasn't writing Luke Skywalker, he was writing the mentor roles in his slightly different retelling. Apparently this appealed to film critics, who fell for this lazy writing. Which speaks more to how little they think of Star Wars than anything else.
Got a character Poe, well let's make his story about how roguish male heroes, who break the rules aren't always correct. His plot can be exploring his stereotypical character.
Finn, well he's something new for Star Wars, no analogue in the original. Nothing for him to do. Let's just use his plot to waste time and preach about animal rights, dangers of capitalism and that both good guys and bad guys buy ammo.
Leia, no analogue for her in the originals. Ironic. Put her in a coma!
Galaxy being conquered, Put it in the opening crawl.
Where does he end the film? Well he's stripped it back even further to the most basic premise of the original trilogy. Now with less plot lines. There's a young Jedi. An evil empire that rules the galaxy and a small group of rebels.
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
I said the same a month or so ago. This movie had/has almost no chance of making the most $ of the sequels. But from a overall money standpoint, it will turn a profit. Not a Disney expected profit but it will profit. I would be surprised if Kennedy is around past the first part of 2020. This is the time for a clean start. I doubt Kennedy wants to stay and I doubt Disney wants her either.
As far as the movie goes. It is exactly what I figured it would be. It left me with the what could have been feeling. Visually there was a lot of things I wanted to see in this new trilogy. But a lot of the moments were not earned because of what came before. And to everyone who yelled at me and said that Ford wouldn't do a 2nd movie, I knew they could get him back.
It had the best chance.......If VIII was handled properly. VII did over $2 Billion. But coming into this - the way VIII was handled - I agree.
flynnibus
Premium Member
No, It would be like me saying "I've seen Kevin Feige's Lion king movie, and I didn't like it, and so I don't need any more Lion King content from Kevin Feige'. We've seen Rian Johnson's work in SW.. and I didn't care for it. It's a pretty simple concept... "we gave you a shot, and I don't like the outcome"
Have his baby for all I care... my point remains the same. I don't care what he is for other things.. for SW.. it wasn't good.
If this ends up with $179 Million (which it won't thankfully) And if this doesn't break a bil.........we're getting another Christmas special. Who you think gets lead in the Daisy Ridley / Adam Driver - Silent Night duet?
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I am not actually that passionate, why are you being so testy?I get your point. He got a shot at the main saga and you didn't like the outcome. All I was trying to say is he didn't actually get the shot to his own story. So it's hard for us to really prognosticate if that would have worked or been equally a let down for you.
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
Yes. It should have been right up there with endgame, avatar, titanic... But that was my point. Going into this with the poop storm that 8 created, you weren't going touch the very top outside of a miracle from JJ. And in my opinion it all lands on the shoulders of Kennedy. I've said it before, Rian wasn't the problem. He really didn't do anything wrong. He made his movie, the way he wanted. The problem is Kennedy allowed it to happen. And Iger went along with her as well.
flynnibus
Premium Member
I get your point. He got a shot at the main saga and you didn't like the outcome. All I was trying to say is he didn't actually get the shot to his own story. So it's hard for us to really prognosticate if that would have worked or been equally a let down for you.
I just don't feel the need to block out everything we do know and keep saying "it could have been..." just because he's made other good films. Not all talents carry over to all formats/subjects.
There are no mulligans... but people do get second chances. Hollywood just knows themselves they all can't be hits, so they aren't as hard on themselves.