News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - Tiana's Bayou Adventure

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MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
In theaters, PatF, may have lost money. Using the "rule of thumb" for figuring out such things, she lost $23M. But the rule of thumb is loosey goosey since don't have actual data. It could have lost more, or, be about break even.

However, PatF did have over $112M in VCR/DVD/BluRay sales, making it clearly a profitable movie.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
I also really don’t think PaTF is over represented. Batting above its weight, sure? Mostly because it’s getting the benefit of Splash’s ride system, half of which is because it’s a ride attached to New Orleans.

Not over indulged though. Mermaid and Toy Story take the cake for that. They pretty much can’t avoid those two properties appearing in almost every night show, parade, etc. Beauty and the Beast has attractions in three/four Florida parks. Frozen more recently joining the ranks of very omnipresent.

Tiana has also appeared on a few DCL ships. So it’s not just an out of the blue sudden phenomenon. But she’s helped in part by being a princess, but also a princess that hawks food. The restaraunt in Disneyland was sort of a natural cross promotion at this juncture.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
I don’t know why people are surprised or shocked at her recent popularity. WDW is talking about adding Tiana, Encanto, Coco, and Indy. And they just added Moana. They want more diversity in their parks. And I applaud them!
Only one of those (Coco) is in the top 25 of highest grossing Disney movies. I think that’s why there is some surprise.
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
I don’t know why people are surprised or shocked at her recent popularity. WDW is talking about adding Tiana, Encanto, Coco, and Indy. And they just added Moana. They want more diversity in their parks. And I applaud them!

Diversity is great…if it makes sense.

Plopping a 1920s Jazz Age Disney Princess in the middle of the 1880s Four Corners region does not make sense.

Yet sadly that’s what we’ve got because TWDC is notoriously stingy when it comes to increasing the actual size of the Florida parks. Ideally, we would have had an East Coast New Orleans square built in the north end of the park just behind the Haunted Mansion and Small World. Heck, Tiana’s Palace could be another table service restaurant using the same kitchen space as Be Our Guest.

We should consider ourselves lucky that Tron became its own thing instead of them just shoving it into the Space Mountain building and calling it a day.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
We should consider ourselves lucky that Tron became its own thing instead of them just shoving it into the Space Mountain building and calling it a day.

The thing is, the starting place for TRON wasn't a desire to replace Space Mountain. The starting place for Tiana's Bayou Adventure, however, was the desire to replace Splash Mountain. Regardless of what they turned it into, Splash's days were numbered. Had that mindset been applied to Space Mountain for any reason it's very likely they would have just given it a TRON reskin, or similar.

It may seem like a meaningless distinction, but it isn't - Disney wanted Splash Mountain gone, so it was going, regardless of what they chose to replace it with. They didn't say "Let's build a Princess and the Frog ride! Now where could that go . . . what about Splash Mountain?". The decision, imperfect though it may be, makes more sense when you realize it was a matter of filling what would soon be a vacant ride system either way.

Also, gentle reminder that Splash Mountain itself disrupted the "Four Corners" nature of Frontierland more than 30 years ago - the movie wasn't called Song of the West, after all.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Also, gentle reminder that Splash Mountain itself disrupted the "Four Corners" nature of Frontierland more than 30 years ago - the movie wasn't called Song of the West, after all.
The idea that Frontierland only ever included the old west has been false from the very beginning.

In the "Disneyland" TV show Episode 1 from 1954 prior to the park opening, Walt Disney described the different lands and what they were going to represent. Nowhere in the description of Frontierland did it state that it was only the western states. Walt stated that the land is the "Inspirational America of the past century, the treasure of our native folklore. The songs, tales and legends of the big men who built the land." Behind Walt was a map of the United States, with a bunch of classic traditional American characters (real and fictional) from said era scattered across the map. Not just the west. They then tie this directly into a promotion for the upcoming Davy Crockett film which is set in Tennessee.



On opening day at Disneyland, Frontierland encompassed deep south states, not just western ones. Davy Crockett being a famous Tennessean. Mike Fink ran boat transportation between Ohio and Mississippi. Mark Twain was born in Missouri, and that's also the state that Tom Sawyer lives in. The Mississippi River is also the border connecting directly to several other deep south states. Country Bear Jamboree is also Tennessee.

The ONLY awkward element about Splash's placement in Frontierland is Pecos Bills. That could and should have been addressed, though also not as big of a deal as people make it out to be (and certainly not remotely as big of a problem as Tiana's placement/setting). Otherwise, the attraction was a very good fit for the land.
 
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ohioguy

Well-Known Member
...Their only Marvel options as far as I know can't be used at WDW. Tiana being a princess was a plus for corporate, and Disneyland at least won't have the placement problems WDW will.
One hopes that we Disney will create a "New Orleans Square" area within the Magic Kingdom, with Frontierland's borders moved to Big Thunder Railroad and beyond that with the new themed area. Some updated facades for most of the current Frontierland is all that's needed for it to be re-themed into a split Liberty Square/New Orleans Square. Country Bears Jamboree can be moved to the new Frontierland when it's built. (and yes, Disney has moved attractions before, on both coasts). That would give them space for another attraction where the CBJ is currently housed. The Shooting Arcade can be sacrificed.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Only one of those (Coco) is in the top 25 of highest grossing Disney movies. I think that’s why there is some surprise.

Theatrically. Not always the best barometer of Disney’s post theatrical success. Moana and Encanto are somewhat undeniable. Moana is possibly as big as Frozen these days. It has been amongst their top streaming movies for half a decade now.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
Theatrically. Not always the best barometer of Disney’s post theatrical success. Moana and Encanto are somewhat undeniable. Moana is possibly as big as Frozen these days. It has been amongst their top streaming movies for half a decade now.
Yeah, it’s a little tricky to measure with the streaming. Moana and Encanto both get lots of replays because they have such good music and kids want to sing along (like frozen).

But a stream watch doesn’t = a sale. I would have never bought Lightyear on DVD but I watched it on Disney+ (and did enjoy it, just didn’t fit the Toy Story franchise at all, it would have been better with no connection, but that’s a very different topic! Haha).

Not sure how to measure “success” then.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
I don’t remember any other attraction thread in which people have disapproved of a particular IP based on its (supposed) lack of financial success. It’s been interesting to watch this discussion go that way.
I don’t disapprove of the IP at all, I disapprove of Guardians as an IP in a Disney park, but certainly not princess and the frog! I was just mentioning facts on the financial success of various IP’s. Certainly, song of the south wasn’t a hugely successful IP haha.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
Tens of millions of people are giving Disney close to $150 a year to watch those movies over and over again for "free."

;)
How are they measuring financial success though? They have the data to know who is watching what and how many times, so they know how many unique subscribers are watching Moana. So that can help. But there isn’t a simple formula like before.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
I don’t remember any other attraction thread in which people have disapproved of a particular IP based on its (supposed) lack of financial success. It’s been interesting to watch this discussion go that way.
No one is disapproving of the IP based on its financial success. That's usually something Disney corporate does, which is exactly the thing people are noticing and pointing out as weird. Disney over the past several decades have become extremely unforgiving with movies that underperform or bomb. And they won't be given the same second and third chances with theatrical re-releases and home video sales that Disney used to allow. While I pointed out that PATF DID in fact make them money, it failed to meet DISNEY'S expectations and was considered a "failure". Such a failure that it is blamed for killing off an entire artistic medium.

PATF was still considered a failure up until 2019-2020 when Disney abruptly changed their tune on the film and began pushing it again. This reassessment of the value of the IP is not the sort of treatment most other "failed" movies would receive in this day and age. That is what people have been pointing out here. Out of social necessity and an absense of any other options, they made an exception.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
The idea that Frontierland only ever included the old west has been false from the very beginning.

In the "Disneyland" TV show Episode 1 from 1954 prior to the park opening, Walt Disney described the different lands and what they were going to represent. Nowhere in the description of Frontierland did it state that it was only the western states. Walt stated that the land is the "Inspirational America of the past century, the treasure of our native folklore. The songs, tales and legends of the big men who built the land." Behind Walt was a map of the United States, with a bunch of classic traditional American characters (real and fictional) from said era scattered across the map. Not just the west. They then tie this directly into a promotion for the upcoming Davy Crockett film which is set in Tennessee.



On opening day at Disneyland, Frontierland encompassed deep south states, not just western ones. Davy Crockett being a famous Tennessean. Mike Fink ran boat transportation between Ohio and Mississippi. Mark Twain was born in Missouri, and that's also the state that Tom Sawyer lives in. The Mississippi River is also the border connecting directly to several other deep south states. Country Bear Jamboree is also Tennessee.

The ONLY awkward element about Splash's placement in Frontierland is Pecos Bills. That could and should have been addressed, though also not as big of a deal as people make it out to be (and certainly not remotely as big of a problem as Tiana's placement/setting). Otherwise, the attraction was a very good fit for the land.


I was referring specifically to that posters suggestion that WDW's Frontierland was based around "The Four Corners", which is the region where Arizona, Utah, Colorado and New Mexico all meet. Splash Mountain was very certainly not themed to any of those.


However, it should be noted that Disneyland's Frontierland and WDW's are not designed and themed the same way - Frontierland as a concept is not automatically exclusionary to tales of the South or even the East, but WDW's Frontierland was constructed very carefully to chart a Western progression with its structures and landmarks.

It is true that the buildings and attractions on the The Rivers of America waterfront were designed from opening day to reflect the geographical thrust of the nation - Liberty Square mostly represented the original Colonies along the East Coast, with Frontierland representing the Western states, both divided by "The Little Mississippi" waterway. Starting in the Northeast corner and working your way down and around, The Haunted Mansion represented Upstate New York, The Nantucket Harbor House (Now Columbia) is obvious, The Hall of Presidents Philadelphia, Liberty Tree Tavern Williamsburg, then starting to move westward with The Diamond Horseshoe representing St. Louis, the "Gateway to the West".

Notably, Liberty Square was elevated a good bit above River Level, so that as you stood in the Square proper the view of the Riverboat was almost completely concealed by the high grade and the Riverboat Station building - it was known the Riverboat was most appropriately seen in Frontierland, despite the operational necessity that it pass Liberty Square. That's why the Landing was placed in LS, to keep the vista open to see it once you've entered Frontierland. That's a strong bit of intentional staging that doesn't get much mention, done in support of the desired geographical journey for the guests.

From there you crossed from East over The Little Mississippi to West into Frontierland, with all the opening day placemaking and architecture becoming decidedly and exclusively Western. The Frontierland entrance stockade, the Frontierland Shootin' Arcade, and Frontier Mercantile all set the early tones for Western expansion, where buildings were starting to be built from both logs and stone, suggesting both the resources as settlers traveled west, but also suggesting growing and intentional permanence. Continuing west the buildings start to become more expansive and elaborate in their design, their architecture and materials both further affirming the settling of the Western territories.

The Country Bear Jamboree has always been described to me as representing the great cabins of the Colorado Rockies, so I'm not totally sure where the idea of it representing Tennessee comes from (There is Tennessee Bear in the show, of course, and the new show has been described as recalling Nashville's Grand Ole Opry, but that's the new show, not the original - and not the architecture). The General Store and Prairie Outpost are fully Western constructions down to the wooden Native American out front.

The Mile Long Bar literally said Saloon above it; Hard to get more explicity Western than that. Next down the line, similary, is Pecos Bills Cafe (Mile Long Bar was absorbed as part of the Pecos Bill expansion in the 90's), which is similarly self explanitory. Both the inside and outsides of all the buildings on this strip supported distinct and committed Western stylings. At one end of the building is the Town Hall facade, the other end is constructed from Adobe Brick. The interior was and is full of different shades of Western, but they are all Western.

I've heard of the original Frontierland Train Station being designed to look "Californian", but admittedly the building was so relatively simple it's hard to see any real sign of that influence, so I don't particularly assert that. I'd describe it as less explicitly styled than anything else in the land, though not incongruous with the Western town they built.

From there the stage was set for expansion further north - The original plans for Frontierland accounted for Western River Expedition and Thunder Mesa, which of course never came to pass. The space went to Big Thunder, but that does still fulfill the intended idea of representing Monument Valley, bordering Utah and Arizona.

Tom Sawyer Island was itself not an opening day attraction, opening instead in 1973, but because of its existence at Disneyland I'd imagine it was given consideration from the outset. Tom Sawyer takes place in Missouri, slightly West of St. Louis, so given the Island's placement encircled by the Riverfront sections of Frontierland and Liberty Square it makes decent sense. I'll give you that the Dock is not perfectly placed where it is over by Big Thunder, though the building is hardly more than a humble shack.

I'll also give you that the Attraction interiors do, of course, stretch at times beyond the unity of their exteriors. It is the Magic Kingdom after all. Hence the Talking Bears, Ghosts, and perhaps most ghastly, contemporary Presidents who make appearances within. But the Architectural continuum of the facades from Liberty Square through Frontierland was perhaps the most intricate piece of early Walt Disney World placemaking, creating a conscious and overarching thematic passage that sustained integrity across the two lands adjoined around the Rivers of America. Eastern properties east of the Mississipi, Western west of it, and they really didn't quiver on the matter.

I don't buy the idea that Splash's placement is "not remotely as big of a problem as Tiana's placement/setting". I'd say that they are pretty equally inappropriate, given the effort that went into developing the thematic landscape of WDW's Frontierland and how conflicting both are with that. But I would also say the damage was most certainly done by Splash 32 years ago, not by Tiana's today. At this point the seal has already been thoroughly broken. Which doesn't mean it wouldn't be ideal for them to repair that, just that it doesn't make sense to blame the successor to what broke it instead of what actually broke it.
 

monothingie

Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
Premium Member
While I pointed out that PATF DID in fact make them money, it failed to meet DISNEY'S expectations and was considered a "failure". Such a failure that it is blamed for killing off an entire artistic medium.
That is not correct. The theatrical run was a looser.

It grossed $271M world wide at the box office. It’s production budget minus marketing was $105M. Conservatively estimating a marketing budget of $50M, they would have need $310M world wide just to break even.

Likely the marketing budget was closer to $75M but let’s err on giving Disney benefit of a lower marketing spend.
 
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