Splash Mountain re-theme announced

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MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Did they give a timeline at all? I didn't read through all 138 pages, but didn't see this addressed in the article unless I missed it? Splash just had such a long refurbishment. Is it an immediate reno like it's not opening up until it's done, or is it planned for next year, or what?

The parks will open with SM as is. The retheme's date is TBA. Maybe not until TRON is done, and even then, we don't know when that will start to complete (possibly because Disney doesn't even know because they're waiting to see how the reopening goes).
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
@wdwmagic Can we have a construction/info/etc. thread for those who wish to avoid the debate?
Well if you're the CEO why don't you share the info. If you're looking for others on this forum to tell you when it is going to happen or details then Disney is in a whole lot of trouble because it would imply that they have one of the most clueless leader ever. Most CEO's would pick up a phone and call the person in charge of the parks to find out information not look for construction info on a forum.
 

DryerLintFan

Premium Member
Only yourself and others here flailing in their arguments are claiming the “woke” garbage. By accounts of insiders, they knew the problematic elements of the ride for years, hence having artwork and a loose plan in place. It was fast tracked due to recent events.

Of course they care about money; they’re a business. I wouldn’t expect less.

As a business that holds these IPs, they can decided to change what and when they want. In this instance, they chose Splash. As mentioned, it’s likely other changes will come. That is their right.

This. And because of the riverboat party scene, it really does make sense to choose The Princess and the Frog.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member

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MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Does anyone else with inside knowledge/details about the ride plans have any comments that can help address some of my stated concerns?

This is the thread you're looking for. Warning: it was moved to the Politics section....

 

hokielutz

Well-Known Member
Only thing we have on the replacement ride is the art and story found in the Disney Park Blog.

Nothing's changed in this thread from the first 10 pages, except for an interesting tidbit indicating that this may indeed have been long planned (for a year as the DPB says) and not just a knee-jerk reaction...


Still have my doubts about it being a year in the planning process.

The change.org petition to convert to Princes and the Frog and this news coming out a few weeks later does not support a long running plan to convert it. Also the statement that Imagineering still has to get back into Splash to determine what elements can be feasible says this is just coming from Blue Sky stages.

Now if you can show that the petition sponsor was from the inside of Imagineering and trying to push the idea...
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Does that brief message of inclusion from a woman of color offend you?

Nice try to bait and switch it to hate.
Your point was they did not trumpet it as anything with a cause to be inclusive when someone said they were using it as a platform and not just the plan to get more IP into the parks with this overlay. They clearly did and have many times since the announcement just yesterday. You were debating someone's point in saying they have not.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
I guess the sad part is that most people haven't seen or care about the movie. My kids have no clue who the heck Brer Rabbit is. Nor do they ask when they get off the ride. They do however giggle and laugh and have a good time. That's the point when on vacation. Changing it doesn't solve any social problems, it only helps Disney get this "Song of the South" issue off their back. And now is the perfect time to do so.

This was a long time coming, truthfully the Dixie Landings name change was more irritating to me.
And the big problem is that Brer Rabbit stories were black folktales. Probably the only thing you could find in Disney that had a real connection to black American history. Song of the Sough might not have been a film people enjoyed or liked, but the stories it included Brer Rabbit, didn't need to be flushed down the toilet because people heard the movie was racist... and I use the word heard because the over whelming majority of people that complain about the movie never actually saw it. It is a lot like people complaining about the Last Temptation of Christ when they had never seen the movie, they simply heard from someone else that it was bad.
 

RoysCabin

Well-Known Member
I don’t deny that it’s a slippery slope. But updating a 30-year old ride to include a beloved princess by millions of people isn’t “canceling” anything. In fact, it’s opening up important conversations, if only some would listen.
The American Adventure does make for a pretty fascinating case study here, at least if we're discussing how presentation matters in cases like this.

Both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves; both harmed their slaves; Jefferson, in particular, went beyond that by never freeing his slaves (Washington at least did that upon his death), and by his fathering a family with Sally Hemings. The American Adventure does not touch on those facts; it does not engage with those figures in that specific area, and instead their roles as commander in chief of the Continental army and as author of the Declaration are emphasized as a means of telling the story the show wishes to convey.

Pivotally, however, the show, via Mark Twain, then goes out of its way to bring up the inherent shortcoming of the American Revolution and the Constitution: "...turns out 'We the People' didn't yet mean all the people", at which point we are then introduced to Frederick Douglass, who speaks passionately about the injustice of slavery. The implication is clear: Washington and Jefferson played pivotal roles in the creation of the new nation, which should be recognized, but they fell short of the ideals they espoused, which also must be recognized.

The show repeats this by seemingly glorifying westward expansion, only for Chief Joseph to powerfully interject "ENOUGH!" and speak of the genocide of his people. We are not being told to ignore the warts of American history, even if the show does sand away numerous rough edges or downplays the many problematic aspects of numerous figures presented (e.g. Teddy Roosevelt and John Muir: GREAT that they preserved America's natural beauty, and thank you Teddy for the FDA! But Muir's feelings on Natives and Roosevelt's views of "eugenically inferior" peoples? Uhh...). This is ultimately also shown in the finale montage, where numerous American figures of varying political stripes are shown, the message being "we take pride in our nation, but it's a nation forged in disagreement, conflict, and it's one that still needs to be made better for all its people through words, acts, and deeds." Powerful stuff.

However, If there's one moment in the show that I think could stand to be changed, it'd be the deifying of Charles Lindbergh. Recognizing the feat of the Spirit of St. Louis's flight isn't inherently terrible, but Lindbergh is fully glorified in his depiction in the show; there is no call to recognize where he fell short, and his ability to fly a plane supersedes all other considerations of him as a person. This is, well, a bit of a problem; as a kid I never would have known it, but upon growing up, learning, and talking with friends of different backgrounds than my own, I came to learn how many Jewish people tend to view Charles Lindbergh: as a full-throated anti-Semite who was one of the public faces of the "America First" movement, which sought not only to keep the US out of the growing European conflict during the 1930s, but did so while also voicing varying levels of support for Hitler's regime, in large part due to its overt anti-Semitism. This is dramatized in the book and HBO miniseries The Plot Against America, which reimagines an America where Lindbergh is elected president during the 1930s; while that is obviously speculative fiction, it's not something made up out of whole cloth, either.

So, say a group of Jewish people and allies asked Disney to make a change with Lindbergh's presence in the show; I'm hard pressed to say they wouldn't have some justification for their view, given how his depiction stands out against the others. I think the point I keep landing on here is "history, people, societies, and the entire world are complicated; don't expect easy answers." Works here, too.
 
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Seduci

New Member
So the supposed "problem" here is the connection to a movie with racist themes or depictions right? Most of us seem to agree that there is no issue with depictions of racism existing in the ride itself.

Song of the South isn't accessible or available to watch anywhere. There is zero chance someone stumbles upon that movie somehow, watches it, and gets offended by the Splash Mountain ride.

Here's a better solution Disney - if you want to appease the small crowd that is actively trying to be offended by Splash Mountain, why not create some new content for Splash Mountain's characters to disassociate them with Song of the South? Create new cartoon shorts following the Adventures of Brer Rabbit. Throw that up on Disney +. New content for us all to enjoy, and no more inherent association with a supposedly problematic movie that no one has access to watch anyway.

A movie franchise based on Pirates of the Caribbean was created, and Jack Sparrow was later interjected into the ride. From what I understand, the same will be happening for the Jungle Cruise. Go a similar route and create some new content based on the beloved characters from Splash Mountain as a win-win solution.

Don't pander to cancel culture and dismantle the pinnacle of imagineering just for the sake of placating the loud minority.
 

MickeyMouse10

Well-Known Member
The only way I'm willing to accept a "Princess and the Frog" attraction is if we get a new land. If they make New Orleans Square on the left side of the park I'd be cool with it's inclusion. If they are simply retheming Splash then it doesn't work at all, because it doesn't feel right in Frontierland.

There would have to be more New Orleans related buildings integrated into the area. Or else it will feel strange like the King Kong ride in Islands of Adventure. Plus picture all of the food options with a new New Orleans Square (bread bowls, monte cristos, beignets, mint juleps).
 

Figurehead

Member
In the Parks
No
The politicization of everything continues. Who in their right mind goes on this ride and thinks it is a terrible scourge on humanity, rather than just enjoying it for what it is? Country Bears Jamboree might as well be next, since it is bunch of hillbilly bears, I'm sure there must be hostile undertones there. And, hey, Chef Art Smith, time to change your successful menu to some type of fusion to reflect diversity, etc. We've all gone mad.
 

John park hopper

Well-Known Member
The only way I'm willing to accept a "Princess and the Frog" attraction is if we get a new land. If they make New Orleans Square on the left side of the park I'd be cool with it's inclusion. If they are simply retheming Splash then it doesn't work at all, because it doesn't feel right in Frontierland.

There would have to be more New Orleans related buildings integrated into the area. Or else it will feel strange like the King Kong ride in Islands of Adventure. Plus picture all the the food options (bread bowls, monte cristos, beignets, mint juleps).
Disney is well on its way to become just another Six Flag amusement park
 

Dutch Inn '76

Well-Known Member
This post is probably going to be strongly disagreed with and lost in the barrage of posts on this issue, but I feel its worth sharing and explaining a few aspects regarding my opinions on this.

You should be able to look back on my post history and see that I was pretty strongly against most attraction rethemes: from Frozenstrom to Guardians. Out of the recent string of ride rethemes that Disney has done, I can genuinely say that this one bohers me the least by a pretty sizable margin. Enough to the point where I'm not just tolerating it, but supporting it. So... why? This seems like something that, based on my track record, I should be strongly opposed to. To make this a little easier, I'm going to compare it to another operating attraction at MK with some in poor taste cultural depictions and talk about how that could/should change and how that does and does not apply to Splash Mountain's case.

For the sake of this post, I will be comparing Splash Mountain with the Jungle Cruise. For starters, Jungle Cruise has a more clearly problematic portrayal of African people in the attraction, as seen in the head hunters section, where stereotypical "savage" images are used as a threat to comedic effect. Thankfully, this could easily be corrected by removing this one section and replacing it with another gimmick, maybe bring in the pirañas from DL or something. Regardless, it is one part of a larger attraction.

Splash Mountain is clearly different, in that its racist moments are not at all explicitly found in the attraction; in fact, the attraction even tries to hastily cover up some of the problematic moments ported over from the films. As one of many examples, Brer Rabbit's capture with the beehive honey is intended to replicate his capture with the "tar baby" (the name alone should throw up about five red flags). Or there is the way that Brer Rabbit is meant to evoke the mannerisms and actions of a slave (African-American Vernacular and all) while Brer Fox is effectively a white slave owner of the time. Finally, one of the most unknown offenders is the iconic song itself "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah" which is derived from blackface performances intended to actively mock the African-American population. The ties to racism is so intertwined with the attraction that it would be impossible to modify in the same way as Jungle Cruise. For JC you just get a new scene' for Splash Mountain, take away the way the Brers are presented, some of the tropes from the film, and the song, and you barely have a ride left. At that point, if you remove that, there has to be a conscious effort to keep Song of the South involved, which I can guarantee there is next to no desire to do.

As for "why Princess and the Frog?" it's really the only IP that could easily slip into both mountains. Sure it's a stretch in Frontierland, but so was Song of the South. As for the "yes, but why not keep Splash Mountain and give Tiana her own ride?" crowd: Splash Mountain was on borrowed time due to its irremovable ties to racist symbols, and (at least at DLR) there wasn't really a good spot to give Tiana her own ride. Really this kills two birds with one stone (and we don't have to see some god-awful visuals of Splash being demolished Horizons-style.

I know Splash is a sentimental favorite for many, but if we want a better future we need to account for past mistakes. Letting a ride that has inherent ties to racist portrayals of African-Americans would not let that happen.


As kind of a P.S., I've seen a lot of people suggest that Tony Baxter was forced into being involved with this. I have had it confirmed by different people that he wasn't, and that he was asked and he elected to be involved with this.

There's nothing racist about the "tar baby" story; unless you're uncomfortable with the fact that black people exist, having black skin.

I thought we were supposed to accept and celebrate Ebonics - yet you say we should repress the "african-american vernacular."

ALL of popular music is derived from African music. All of it. Again, we should celebrate this massive contribution to American and world culture, not hide it.

Brer Fox is not intended to be a white person. All of these characters are country black people, and the stories are told from their point of view.


The cancel culture is not comfortable with the unique parts of the different cultures in the American "melting pot," especially as white people view and use them. They call it "cultural appropriation" (which is hilarious). ...so white use of them must be minimized. That's what's going on here.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
Nice try to bait and switch it to hate.
Your point was they did not trumpet it as anything with a cause to be inclusive when someone said they were using it as a platform and not just the plan to get more IP into the parks with this overlay. They clearly did and have many times since the announcement just yesterday. You were debating someone's point in saying they have not.

I was responding to the claim that Disney did this so they could "trumpet their wokeness".

The announcement is all about the addition of the PATF IP and does not make any reference to the Song of the South's troubled history. You are pointing to a few quotes at the bottom of the announcement in which a few people associated with the project talk about how proud they are to be associated with it. Hardly trumpeting wokeness in my book. A touch self-congratulatory? Sure. That's typical Disney. A left-wing political manifesto? A declaration of wokeness (whatever that is)? Far from it.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
QUOTE="Figurehead, post: 9293614, member: 137663"]
The politicization of everything continues. Who in their right mind goes on this ride and thinks it is a terrible scourge on humanity, rather than just enjoying it for what it is? Country Bears Jamboree might as well be next, since it is bunch of hillbilly bears, I'm sure there must be hostile undertones there. And, hey, Chef Art Smith, time to change your successful menu to some type of fusion to reflect diversity, etc. We've all gone mad.
[/QUOTE]

The answer to your question at the start from the responses here would point to no one. But if you ask them, we are choosing not to see it or not woke, therefore the default is racism on feelings. Your point is good with CBJ. It has a song that reminds us of the way legends and Disney romantacized Davy Crockett.
 
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