Soundsational?

[LongtimeReader]

I just wish they would purchase Jubilation from Oriental Land Company. If you are going to have the same parade for 20 years at least make it good. Next year OLC will just destroy the floats when they debut their new debut parade for their 30th Anniversary.

Most of TDL's parade floats these days are designed for their wide walkways, and would never fit on the MK's narrow streets.

 

[LongtimeReader]

The difference in choreography and types of performers between the average WDW parade and average Disneyland parade has come up before, and been explained by various parade CM's as essentially being a union issue.

As the explanation goes, the more elaborate choreography and stunts and musicians in Disneyland parades cost more and require specific union trades to be engaged and hired and paid at a higher rate. The WDW parades don't use these higher paid unions and/or won't require the dancers to perform the more elaborate steps that would generate the higher pay scales.

What you end up with is a WDW parade where the performers usually stick to a basic shuffle-shuffle-step-wave choreography over and over down the parade route, instead of the more active and customized choreography and stunts performed in a Disneyland parade.

Or at least that's how it's been explained online in the recent past by CM's. Whatever the case, there is clearly a difference in showmanship and performance standards between Disneyland and WDW, especially if non-profesional dancers like you and I can notice it. Something is going on, and unless an informed person can explain it someway else I have to believe it boils down to a case of TDO not wanting to pay the higher union wages for WDW parades that TDA pays for Disneyland parades. :shrug:

Close. The union that covers Disneyland's performers is AGVA, which has far looser rules than Equity (WDW's performer's union) for what constitutes a "parade dancer" and a "show dancer." Parade dancers in both parks are non-union, so it is not a case of WDW being cheap. AGVA does not consider DL's more elaborate choreography to be of the caliber of the union dancers, so they are "allowed" to do this. Equity is more strict. As an example, you don't often see any parade dancers at WDW kicking above the waist, but you will often see this at DL. High kicks on cement are considered off-limits to non-union dancers by Equity, whereas they are allowed by AGVA. Thus, while you're correct that WDW doesn't want to make all of their parade dancers union (more expensive) in order to allow them to do the more elaborate choreography (and on cement, which is part of the issue), you're incorrect that DL pays their parade dancers more, besides the somewhat higher pay rates across the board due to higher cost of living in CA. They're just luckier that AGVA does not hold them to the same rules. It's also why Snow White hasn't been lifted by the Prince in Fantasmic on the barge for over a decade in DHS, which was the original choreography (and is still done at Disneyland). Face characters are not paid dancer rates, and thus the unions are again at play on what exactly constitutes a "DANCER" in their jurisdictions. Disneyland's Snow White can be lifted and get paid face character pay. WDW's Snow White must be made a union dancer if she is lifted...hence she is not lifted anymore and remains a face character position.

Meanwhile, TDR has no unions whatsoever, so they can make their performers do whatever the heck they please over there. Sometimes there's more than meets the eye as a casual observer.

Hope that all made sense.

 

[IanDLBZF]

I think it would be nice for once if they swapped the current parade at MK with Soundsational over at Disneyland. :animwink: Maybe sometime in the future it will happen, we'll just have to wait.

 

[Ralphlaw]

It all kinda makes you want to hate unions doesn't it?

 

[LongtimeReader]

It all kinda makes you want to hate unions doesn't it?

It is sort of a double edged sword. The unions are protecting their performers. Asking someone to do certain things requires the correct compensation. If Disney really wants their performers to do something, they have to play by the rules. Therefore the balance between parks is off because the union rules are different. In Tokyo, the characters can be in a parade/show that is nearly an hour long, while standing next to huge propane fire jets (Blazing Rhythms). LOTS of heat related injury, and very few people to blow the whistle on it. The union parks would prohibit this. The catch is that Blazing Rhythms was fantastic, and wouldnt be feasible in that same format over here...at least not for the same price as it was in Tokyo.

 

[lightboy]

Close. The union that covers Disneyland's performers is AGVA, which has far looser rules than Equity (WDW's performer's union) for what constitutes a "parade dancer" and a "show dancer." Parade dancers in both parks are non-union, so it is not a case of WDW being cheap. AGVA does not consider DL's more elaborate choreography to be of the caliber of the union dancers, so they are "allowed" to do this. Equity is more strict. As an example, you don't often see any parade dancers at WDW kicking above the waist, but you will often see this at DL. High kicks on cement are considered off-limits to non-union dancers by Equity, whereas they are allowed by AGVA. Thus, while you're correct that WDW doesn't want to make all of their parade dancers union (more expensive) in order to allow them to do the more elaborate choreography (and on cement, which is part of the issue), you're incorrect that DL pays their parade dancers more, besides the somewhat higher pay rates across the board due to higher cost of living in CA. They're just luckier that AGVA does not hold them to the same rules. It's also why Snow White hasn't been lifted by the Prince in Fantasmic on the barge for over a decade in DHS, which was the original choreography (and is still done at Disneyland). Face characters are not paid dancer rates, and thus the unions are again at play on what exactly constitutes a "DANCER" in their jurisdictions. Disneyland's Snow White can be lifted and get paid face character pay. WDW's Snow White must be made a union dancer if she is lifted...hence she is not lifted anymore and remains a face character position.

Meanwhile, TDR has no unions whatsoever, so they can make their performers do whatever the heck they please over there. Sometimes there's more than meets the eye as a casual observer.

Hope that all made sense.

You are somewhat incorrect. Every parade performer / character performer at Walt Disney World is a union cast member covered under a union contract. They are represented by...well...Teamsters. While it's not a strong union to be backing you up in a theatrical/arts role, they ARE union.

Equity does have a lot to say in what "cannot" be done. But there's a lot that "can" be done. These performers that you talk about in the parades are the same performers that also do such extravagant "mover" (dancer) roles elsewhere on property...such as Festival of the Lion King (not the partnering birds, which are Equity), Trolley Parade at MK, Disney Channel Rocks, now defunct Block Party Bash, now defunct Tapestry, etc. So there's much more "moving" (dancing) that CAN happen under the Entertainment Teamster union contract. It just doesn't.

Why?

CM Skill level obtained, pay rate offered, scheduling flexibility to schedule almost anyone in any role, and injury rate in hot weather.

Look at Block Party Bash for example...
-They had to raise the bar casting more dancer type performers to fill these positions
-Around that time they had premiums instituted for these "high skill" dancing performers that gave them a bump up
-They couldn't schedule any run-of-the-mill performer in rehearsals or parades, which led to scheduling shortages of people that can do the roles (especially in the beginning)
-My understanding was that injury and heat exhaustion rates were sky high.
-Trampoline/stunt performers were a completely separate issue.

Some of these are the same issues that many of us are hearing from Universal's new offering. They had to tackle the same issues above.

Walt Disney World is so big and requires so many roles (MOST sub $10/hr roles)...that the pay rate and the skill level that it attracts doesn't "always" get you a lot in regards to scheduling and flexibility. Therefore if they dumb down many of the roles to a "shuffle shuffle step wave" that was mentioned...more people (that don't have the advanced training and instruction) in the department can do it. And the injury and exhaustion rates go way down.

Still not right. And WDW still has some of the BEST performers anywhere regardless of whether or not they are Equity. There's serious talent in there. There's just larger issues at hand that need to be managed better if the difficulty/performance level is going to be raised. But it CAN happen.

The parade performers are covered under almost the same contract that they were in the glory parade days (pre-MK-Snowglobes).

 

[Ralphlaw]

Wow, Lightboy, impressive explanation. If only our political candidates could explain things so clearly. Thanks for the insight.

 

[puntagordabob]

IF the new MK parade proposals are properly funded it should be even better.

Here is Hoping! Would love to see a new daytime parade at the MK that the Other Disney Resorts "wish they had there" for a change! lol

Yes!!!! Time to retire that float (which has been around far, far, too long) for good!

It should be donated to the Smithsonian in Washington DC! It was an Awesome float in its heyday (which has long since left us) so it would be worthy of the honor, and Secondly it would be IN Washington DC hence it would NOT be here in Florida! lol

 

[COProgressFan]

A little birdie tell's me Disney isnt to happy with Universal's brand new entertainment offering even though they're daytime parade is recieving criticism

Disney should embarrassed to be running their afternoon MK parade. It's truly that bad.

At least Universal is trying. Disney just called it quits and generally doesn't even bother anymore when it comes to entertainment. If it was good enough for 2001, apparently its good enough for them in 2012 (even though it has been watered down, shortened, etc.)

 

[jrh1985]

IF the new MK parade proposals are properly funded it should be even better.

Why am I not Shocked!! MK had/has??? better ideas than DLP's Dreams. Now, better ideas than Soundsational???? Oy! I've said this on here before CADCT opened, I 100% trust and have faith in MK when their dealing with 3PM, 9PM and/or 10PM offerings, with the exception with the new Spectromen.

MK knows what their doing!

If this really is Phil's decision, then I really have no hope then....

Didn't I read in the Steve Davidson thread that Phil already green light this???? Or did I read that wrong???? Phil will green light this (if he hasn't already) when he doesn't see something in CADCT anymore. I think Phil sees something in CADCT, I see it too, I've seen it since Jan 23rd 2009! It's my favorite parade, and I know and have seen MK's Daytime Parade History the last 20 years. The music just hits me, so do the dancers. Maybe it hit Phil, I wouldn't blame him if it did!

A little birdie tell's me Disney isnt to happy with Universal's brand new entertainment offering even though they're daytime parade is recieving criticism

Universal's Parade is recieving criticism? Why?? It's perfectly good parade for UO. Doesn't beat CADCT, but I wasn't expecting it too.




If MK wants to to give a grand farewell to CADCT, They should put the Showstop back in and use this number:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5CJHIz8_So


This must be a brand new song TDR made this year. Never heard it before, but the song sounds like it was made just for CADCT!!! Wired!!!!! Could WDW and TDR be working together??

 

[LongtimeReader]

You are somewhat incorrect. Every parade performer / character performer at Walt Disney World is a union cast member covered under a union contract. They are represented by...well...Teamsters. While it's not a strong union to be backing you up in a theatrical/arts role, they ARE union.

Equity does have a lot to say in what "cannot" be done. But there's a lot that "can" be done. These performers that you talk about in the parades are the same performers that also do such extravagant "mover" (dancer) roles elsewhere on property...such as Festival of the Lion King (not the partnering birds, which are Equity), Trolley Parade at MK, Disney Channel Rocks, now defunct Block Party Bash, now defunct Tapestry, etc. So there's much more "moving" (dancing) that CAN happen under the Entertainment Teamster union contract. It just doesn't.

Why?

CM Skill level obtained, pay rate offered, scheduling flexibility to schedule almost anyone in any role, and injury rate in hot weather.

Look at Block Party Bash for example...
-They had to raise the bar casting more dancer type performers to fill these positions
-Around that time they had premiums instituted for these "high skill" dancing performers that gave them a bump up
-They couldn't schedule any run-of-the-mill performer in rehearsals or parades, which led to scheduling shortages of people that can do the roles (especially in the beginning)
-My understanding was that injury and heat exhaustion rates were sky high.
-Trampoline/stunt performers were a completely separate issue.

Some of these are the same issues that many of us are hearing from Universal's new offering. They had to tackle the same issues above.

Walt Disney World is so big and requires so many roles (MOST sub $10/hr roles)...that the pay rate and the skill level that it attracts doesn't "always" get you a lot in regards to scheduling and flexibility. Therefore if they dumb down many of the roles to a "shuffle shuffle step wave" that was mentioned...more people (that don't have the advanced training and instruction) in the department can do it. And the injury and exhaustion rates go way down.

Still not right. And WDW still has some of the BEST performers anywhere regardless of whether or not they are Equity. There's serious talent in there. There's just larger issues at hand that need to be managed better if the difficulty/performance level is going to be raised. But it CAN happen.

The parade performers are covered under almost the same contract that they were in the glory parade days (pre-MK-Snowglobes).

Absolutely correct on all points. Sorry, didn't really mean to imply that parades are fully non-union. Everyone is union at WDW, there are bajillions of them represented it seems. I simply meant non-performer union. Teamsters are a poor choice to represent the arts, IMO. And you raise a good point, there is still much you can do under the guidelines. Definitely a part of it is poor management, 100% agree. However a few friends have come from DL to WDW wondering why direct lifts of shows (Fantasmic, MSEP) have dumbed down versions, and the unions are more often the culprit than not for things like that. But creativity could use a boost at WDW to be sure. I personally feel like a lot of the casting and show director team need their walking papers. I miss the days of Stacey Johnson running the show. She had an eye.

 

[marni1971]

Didn't I read in the Steve Davidson thread that Phil already green light this???? Or did I read that wrong???? Phil will green light this (if he hasn't already) when he doesn't see something in CADCT anymore.

So far as I know, further development has been green lit. Then they'll find how much it'll cost (the proposed budgets been slashed already by Holmes) and decide whether to proceed.

 

[TravisMT81]

Why am I not Shocked!! MK had/has??? better ideas than DLP's Dreams. Now, better ideas than Soundsational???? Oy! I've said this on here before CADCT opened, I 100% trust and have faith in MK when their dealing with 3PM, 9PM and/or 10PM offerings, with the exception with the new Spectromen.

MK knows what their doing!


Didn't I read in the Steve Davidson thread that Phil already green light this???? Or did I read that wrong???? Phil will green light this (if he hasn't already) when he doesn't see something in CADCT anymore. I think Phil sees something in CADCT, I see it too, I've seen it since Jan 23rd 2009! It's my favorite parade, and I know and have seen MK's Daytime Parade History the last 20 years. The music just hits me, so do the dancers. Maybe it hit Phil, I wouldn't blame him if it did!


Universal's Parade is recieving criticism? Why?? It's perfectly good parade for UO. Doesn't beat CADCT, but I wasn't expecting it too.




If MK wants to to give a grand farewell to CADCT, They should put the Showstop back in and use this number:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5CJHIz8_So


This must be a brand new song TDR made this year. Never heard it before, but the song sounds like it was made just for CADCT!!! Wired!!!!! Could WDW and TDR be working together??

From another video, it appears to be some type of event announcing the 30th Anniversary plan for Tokyo Disneyland. The outfit they later wear (another video) are the costumes for the 30th Anniversary program. The user has 3 videos, it all appears to have taken place in one of their convention halls.. There is a total of 3 costumes changes?

 

[jrh1985]

From another video, it appears to be some type of event announcing the 30th Anniversary plan for Tokyo Disneyland. The outfit they later wear (another video) are the costumes for the 30th Anniversary program. The user has 3 videos, it all appears to have taken place in one of their convention halls.. There is a total of 3 costumes changes?

I thought of the 30th at first, but then, the 30th is like 11 months away and their 30th song is "happiness is here", and Steve is doing their 30th parade. I wouldn't think TDR would want a CADCT feel for their 30th. Unless Steve did CADCT and no one knew about it. I also remember reading on here a month or two ago that MK wanted CADCT to be like a Tokyo production but it didn't pan out that way. Could the link I posted have been MK's showstop idea before Celebrate You came along?

 

[DisneyParksFan1]

So far as I know, further development has been green lit. Then they'll find how much it'll cost (the proposed budgets been slashed already by Holmes) and decide whether to proceed.

Care to elaborate on what this "further development" consists of? Thanks in advanced. :wave:

 

[TP2000]

Definitely a part of it is poor management, 100% agree. However a few friends have come from DL to WDW wondering why direct lifts of shows (Fantasmic, MSEP) have dumbed down versions, and the unions are more often the culprit than not for things like that. But creativity could use a boost at WDW to be sure.

Thanks to you and lightboy both! These have been very informative posts.

I knew it was a "union issue" that caused the noticeable difference in choreography and showmanship between similar Disneyland and WDW entertainment productions, or that caused the odd shuffle-shuffle-step-wave choreography in WDW productions like the Magic Kingdom's 3 o'clock Dream of Dreams and Magic Celebration Dreamy Parade parade, or whatever we're calling it now.

But your insight and background info is much appreciated. It's a very interesting topic to learn about!