Solar power farm coming to Disney

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
This is true. Oftentimes the additional cost and reduced spatial efficiency of parking lot systems are overlooked for the added intrinsic value from putting a system in clear view of customers plus the shade provided for parking. If Disney were doing this simply for PR they probably would have looked harder at a parking lot system. As someone mentioned they could have charged a premium for shaded parking. Hell, they could have used it as a justification for increasing the parking fee by $1 and funded the entire project with that extra revenue.

The decision to do a system on open land alludes to the fact that they are always looking at the bottom line and that this was more of a $ decision than PR, which we all know is what TDO is really paying attention to.
I think you are missing the point.

While making a dedicated off site solar farm will cost less than trying to incorporate it into a parking lot, it is without question the better way to do it if they are serious about actually generating power and not just doing it for appearances.

This is not TDO being cheap, this is them doing something that actually works.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
The rub is, the parking lot idea is not the best way to make a solar farm when you have thousands of acres of land available and you are serious about generating as much power as possible.

Except the parking lots are already cleared land and an "eyesore" with respect to the property. Clearing land for a solar farm makes very little sense. You are removing wilderness and adding an eyesore that does nothing but generate very little electricity for the size of the area that it sits on. For dedicated solar farms like this to make any sense from a land use perspective, a major breakthrough in panel efficiency must happen.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Except the parking lots are already cleared land and an "eyesore" with respect to the property. Clearing land for a solar farm makes very little sense. You are removing wilderness and adding an eyesore that does nothing but generate very little electricity for the size of the area that it sits on. For dedicated solar farms like this to make any sense from a land use perspective, a major breakthrough in panel efficiency must happen.
An "eyesore" you can only see from an aircraft or satellite is not really an eyesore in most peoples book. There are also several large sections of land in the area this will be going that are already nearly as clear as a pasture. Odds are that this farm will be built on one of them.

The parking lot idea would generate a fraction of the power per square foot a dedicated farm would all while using even more material and increasing maintenance costs.

Those breakthroughs are not going to come without large scale projects like this.
 

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
Good catch. I think though that this is a power substation where the power comes from underground utilities and goes into EPCOT The larger building may be a central air chiller plant for park wide air conditioning. Not sure, but the four large fans has me thinking that. The only other actual power plant on property is directly north of MK. Not counting the small methane powered power plant at the waste treatment facility.

Here's a zoom of the location you are speaking of. on the right is the power substation and on the left is chiller plant.
Unless of course I am wrong. Then in that case, the merry-go-round is on the left and the monkey bars are on the right. LOL :hilarious:

View attachment 94560
There's actually one over by DAK as well.
 

DrewmanS

Well-Known Member
I think you are missing the point.

While making a dedicated off site solar farm will cost less than trying to incorporate it into a parking lot, it is without question the better way to do it if they are serious about actually generating power and not just doing it for appearances.

This is not TDO being cheap, this is them doing something that actually works.

A higher cost parking lot install generates no savings and becomes a maintenance nightmare. Who pays for damage caused by a car? An independent "plant" will be operated by Duke Engery who will be responsible for its maintenance.

There is also the consideration on the impact of the solar farm on the power grid. If Disney built at 60 megawatt solar farm, it would create a higher percentage of its energy needs, but would be much less reliable. As storm clouds pass over, it would have a significant impact on the energy requirements from other sources. A 5 megawatt plant is cost effective, has a relative small footprint, and can provide good data to determine if additional capacity would be effective.
 

ABQ

Well-Known Member
An "eyesore" you can only see from an aircraft or satellite is not really an eyesore in most peoples book. There are also several large sections of land in the area this will be going that are already nearly as clear as a pasture. Odds are that this farm will be built on one of them.

The parking lot idea would generate a fraction of the power per square foot a dedicated farm would all while using even more material and increasing maintenance costs.

Those breakthroughs are not going to come without large scale projects like this.
I agree with you, though I still think they could have at least tried something either in the new expanded lot at the DAK or who knows what may come with the destruction of the speedway. I think the power per square inch is a legitimate concern, building in a lot vs building out of bounds as planned, but maintenance is negligible. Our airport owns its own system covering our garage
SolarPVParking.jpg
which, I admit is TINY compared to any WDW lot, however, guests parking at the airport lots aren't directed in with the control that any Disney parking lot is, so there's more risk them driving like buffoons. Still, the system only generates 440kW. Though they claim it's enough to power the electric to the garage below. However, though Florida claims to be the Sunshine State, NM gets a bit more sun than FL and was termed the sunshine state before FL stole that in 1970.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Well, that's part of the general misconception. Unlike filling your car up with gas, electricity is extremely difficult to store. Much better with modern battery technologies, but the metals and chemicals required for those are extremely bad for the environment (ever seen a lithium mine in China? It makes coal strip mines look like Yellowstone National Park)...

I'm not making any statement one way or the other, but misleading terms like "can power 1 florida home for a year in 3 hours" are a tad misleading. If that energy isn't consumed WITHIN the hour, it's likely lost. Even quasi efficient storage involves chemicals that are extremely toxic, both in mining, production and final cost.

That's why you are encouraged to "recycle" your cell batteries...cause in a general landfill, millions of those leaky NiCad and LiIon batteries...well, that's BAD news.

For example, while I'd love mass adoption of electric cars, it would also mean our national grid needs to be severely examined and rethought. As well as our transportation system. Not to mention the ecological damage done overseas (as that's where we mine and purchase and largely produce all these metals, in countries who don't care about their environment nearly as much as we do).

It will happen, at some point, but there are significant advantages to NOT adopting it as well.

Green is NOT always as green as the masses and politicians believe.
I think it's just a nuance of wording.

It can't "power a home for 1 year from 3 hours of generation" without battery backup. When the original person quoted that statistic I think what they meant was "it produces the equivalent amount of power in 3 hours that 1 average home would use in a year". That's not to say the megawatts produced in those 3 hours would actually be stored and used over a year.

I've worked in the power industry for over 10 years so I know exactly how large a 5 MW power plant is. To the average person 5 MWs doesn't mean much so the industry came up with a way to explain how much power a megawatt is by converting it to the number of average homes it could power. That's much easier to understand.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
So Lemmie ask you guys this, is it possible to power a person's home with solar panels and one of those batteries?
Short answer is yes, but it's not economical at this time in most states. With solar panels there is the concept of net metering. In a simplified example I put solar panels on my roof that generate 100 kilowatts of power an hour during the day when it's sunny. So for arguments sake lets say 10 hours a day, so 1,000 kilowatts produced each day. During the day I may only use 50 killowatts an hour. If I had a battery I could store the other 50 kilowatts each hour or 500 KWs total and then use them at night. With net metering the local utility is allowing me to use the grid as a virtual backup battery. The utility only bills me for the net kilowatts I use from the grid. So in my example during the day I am generating 100 KWs and using 50 KWs and dumping the other 50 KWs onto the grid. At the end of the day I have dumped 500 KWs back on the grid. Then all night I pull KWs off of the grid to use. Lets say I take 550 KWs from the grid that night. At the end of the 24 hour period I am only charged for the net kilowatts I've taken from the grid or 50 KWs (550 KWs taken at night less the 500 KWs I deposited on the grid during the day).

In states where net metering exists (which is most of them) it's not worth the extra money you would have to invest to buy the batteries when you can use the grid for basically free. There are some who want truly green power who will still want to buy the batteries anyway and completely disconnect from the grid, but economically its not quite there yet. As more and more people adopt solar panels net metering is being challenged in a number of states. The incumbent monopoly utilities have much to lose and they are well connected politically. They want the solar owners to pay more than just the charge for net power used. It's a battle that will unfold in the next few years.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
A higher cost parking lot install generates no savings and becomes a maintenance nightmare. Who pays for damage caused by a car? An independent "plant" will be operated by Duke Engery who will be responsible for its maintenance.

There is also the consideration on the impact of the solar farm on the power grid. If Disney built at 60 megawatt solar farm, it would create a higher percentage of its energy needs, but would be much less reliable. As storm clouds pass over, it would have a significant impact on the energy requirements from other sources. A 5 megawatt plant is cost effective, has a relative small footprint, and can provide good data to determine if additional capacity would be effective.
It depends on where they install the panels. Over a parking lot can be cheaper than on unused land if the land needs to be significantly altered to build it. If the structure was over the lot it would still likely be owned and operated by a 3rd party like Duke. They would still be responsible for maintenance. It also would provide premium covered parking in the hot FL sun. I smell an upcharge opportunity for Disney parking. They could also use it as both a PR spin and as a source of advertising revenue. You either sell advertising directly or you work into the power purchase agreement a reduced cost and allow the energy company that owns the panels to advertise on them. That's how this deal works in Philly at the Linc:
photo-211.jpg


If Eagles fans tailgating at the Linc don't break the panels I'm sure they would do OK in the parking lot at WDW:)

This 5 MW array works well as a standalone project, but if they ever wanted to increase to a more significant percentage of power they would run out of cleared and project ready sites on property.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Short answer is yes, but it's not economical at this time in most states. With solar panels there is the concept of net metering. In a simplified example I put solar panels on my roof that generate 100 kilowatts of power an hour during the day when it's sunny. So for arguments sake lets say 10 hours a day, so 1,000 kilowatts produced each day. During the day I may only use 50 killowatts an hour. If I had a battery I could store the other 50 kilowatts each hour or 500 KWs total and then use them at night. With net metering the local utility is allowing me to use the grid as a virtual backup battery. The utility only bills me for the net kilowatts I use from the grid. So in my example during the day I am generating 100 KWs and using 50 KWs and dumping the other 50 KWs onto the grid. At the end of the day I have dumped 500 KWs back on the grid. Then all night I pull KWs off of the grid to use. Lets say I take 550 KWs from the grid that night. At the end of the 24 hour period I am only charged for the net kilowatts I've taken from the grid or 50 KWs (550 KWs taken at night less the 500 KWs I deposited on the grid during the day).

In states where net metering exists (which is most of them) it's not worth the extra money you would have to invest to buy the batteries when you can use the grid for basically free. There are some who want truly green power who will still want to buy the batteries anyway and completely disconnect from the grid, but economically its not quite there yet. As more and more people adopt solar panels net metering is being challenged in a number of states. The incumbent monopoly utilities have much to lose and they are well connected politically. They want the solar owners to pay more than just the charge for net power used. It's a battle that will unfold in the next few years.

I'm just trying to think if true energy independence (electrical) is possible within my lifetime.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
5 Megawatts is peanuts. And that's exactly what this is, a trendy "We're Green!" photo op placed conveniently alongside the main entry road of the property. Bored housewives who read all the right blogs will be able to smugly say to the snowflakes in the backseat as they arrive at WDW "Look at the solar farm kids! Our vacation is helping to save the planet!". You can bet the Disney Parks Blog will be all over this too. Puke.

As a point of reference, the Ivanpah Solar Farm that opened a few months ago in Southern California is 550 Megawatts.

MidAmerican Solar Farm - Topaz, California = 580 Megawatts, energy for the entire city of San Luis Obispo (276,000 people)
Ivanpah Solar Farm - Desert Center, California = 550 Megawatts, energy for 160,000 homes distributed throughout SoCal
Solar Star Farm - Kern, California = 579 Megawatts, energy for 170,000 homes distributed throughout the West
NRG Solar Farm - Agua Caliente, Arizona = 470 Megawatts, energy for 200,000 homes at peak loads

This is what a massive 500+ Megawatt solar farm looks like, out in the California desert where no one ever sees it but where it works the best. Notice there's no tourist road next to it. ;)
2014-11-28-image-4.jpg



A 5 (Five!) Megawatt farm is very small potatoes by current standards and will mostly just create a feel-good and corporate-approved moment for those driving past it on their way to Disney World.
I'm intimately familiar with 2 of those 4 projects. They are huge and they are utility scale solar. Built to sell power to the major utilities in Southern CA so they can meet the renewable energy standard in CA. Not exacty the same thing as what we are talking about here. They would be 3 or 4 times the power needed to power all of WDW and would take up thousands of acres to build. While 5 MWs isn't a significant portion of the total electricty used by WDW it's not nothing. This is directly from the RCID website:

Electric
The District operates and maintains an electrical generation, transmission and distribution system which provides service throughout the District. The system includes a state-of-the-art cogeneration facility currently aggregating 55,000 kW of net capability. RCID purchases the remainder of its needs from other utilities. The transmission system includes nine 69 kV substations and distributes all power via a 12.47 kV underground distribution system. The peak demand of the electrical system is approximately 196 MW.
The peak demand of the entire system for RCID which is actually more than just WDW is 196 MW. This array is approximately 2.5% of that. I believe there was a plan at one time to have a renewable energy standard in FL requiring 20% of power come from renewable sources by 2020. I think that law was either never passed or was repealed at some time in the recent past. If the state government mandates it, I would expect to see more of this coming to WDW. Right now it's just TWDC and RCID deciding to build this project for their own purposes.

I'm kinda surprised they didn't start this in CA at DLR where the renewable energy standard is really high and the ecnomics make a lot more sense.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'm just trying to think if true energy independence (electrical) is possible within my lifetime.
It's possible right now. Just not a very good deal economically. You could combine solar, batteries and a whole house backup generator (a commercial grade one that runs on nat gas not the one that runs on gasoline that you keep in your garage) and unplug from the grid completely. The net cost of all of that will be higher right now than staying on the grid.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's possible right now. Just not a very good deal economically. You could combine solar, batteries and a whole house backup generator (a commercial grade one that runs on nat gas not the one that runs on gasoline that you keep in your garage) and unplug from the grid completely. The net cost of all of that will be higher right now than staying on the grid.

Not economical yet. Unless I lived in the middle of nowhere.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Not economical yet. Unless I lived in the middle of nowhere.
You could get one of those tiny houses. They actually have a reality show now.
tumbleweed-tiny-house-company.jpg


I can't really predict what will happen with battery technology or solar panel prices in the future. Common sense tells me the price will come down like all technology. Eventually it will be feasible and economic. Maybe in your lifetime.

A small portion of homes in the US actually qualify for rooftop solar. You need enough clear roof space and your house has to face the right direction. One alternative that is becoming more popular is community solar projects. You buy a 20 acre piece of land somewhere and install something equivalent in size to this WDW solar farm and then get a few thousand people to buy in. They split the output. It's designed for people who want solar but live in a condo or a smaller house that can't get rooftop solar or maybe just don't want it on their roof.
 

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