Skyliner Possible Expansion Routes

[peter11435]

It kinda does? Aruba is right there

Honestly…the only reason for the layout is to try and connect the dak spur off the switch station at boardwalk?

But I don’t think it’s given them Nearly what they wanted…so it probably ends where it is now

No insider info…just the facts available to fit a hypothesis…
(My other name is sir Arthur Conan Doyle)

By that logic CBR already has a dedicated line to DHS. Jamaica is right there.

Any extension of the system would not use the boardwalk turn station. It’s not even remotely set up for that, would require getting guests up to a very elevated platform, and would make the Riviera problem look insignificant.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

By that logic CBR already has a dedicated line to DHS. Jamaica is right there.

Any extension of the system would not use the boardwalk turn station. It’s not even remotely set up for that, would require getting guests up to a very elevated platform, and would make the Riviera problem look insignificant.

The whole thing makes little sense…other than cramming an ugly dvc tower into an old moderate as a “test case”. What we see is what we get…it didn’t turn out to be a “template for the future”

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You think they don’t get more money per night at those resorts?

All on property rooms are ridiculously overpriced. The moderates have long been the biggest ripoffs - lb for lb - on property…

But have the prices gone up that much since they opened this?

Not really. They can’t sell their rooms and that’s been a problem for quite some time. 30-40% standing discounts paint a pretty clear picture

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

100 years?

Why would they retire something like that helps fill up rooms and adds value per night to all resorts connected to a station?

Even before the skyliner hotels were packed...I took this pic in Jan of 2014 that line of tour group teens were all waiting in line just to go to AK for the day..

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Even before the skyliner hotels were packed...I took this pic in Jan of 2014 that line of tour group teens were all waiting in line just to go to AK for the day..
View attachment 850940

I’ve had nightmares that were much more pleasant than that picture

 

[mattpeto]

Even before the skyliner hotels were packed...I took this pic in Jan of 2014 that line of tour group teens were all waiting in line just to go to AK for the day..
View attachment 850940

Feel like you and @Sirwalterraleigh are missing the point.

Yes bookings are down and they are soft this summer. Art of Animation and Pop Century can charge more per night because of the skyliner than the rest of the values.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Feel like you and @Sirwalterraleigh are missing the point.

Yes bookings are down and they are soft this summer. Art of Animation and Pop Century can charge more per night because of the skyliner than the rest of the values.

We can check the rack rates and see? I don’t recall how much they’ve risen…but if it’s not significantly more than the non-skyliner hotels…it fizzles

I’ll do some research

And they’ve been “soft” since they hit Chapeks covid wall in March of 2023. Which means bookings hit it in the summer/fall of 2022 at the latest

There is no disputing that

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So …as expected…there are a ton of comparison charts out there about hotel price increases…almost like that is drawing just a tad of scrutiny?

And the graphs show that all hotels were up between 20% and 24% base price between 2018 and 2024.

Two things:
1. It’s insane…it’s why they’re struggling to book…and feeding other bad management habits.
2. There was no “bump” for the skyliner sites of significance. If you know how they think in resorts - and let me be clear: I do for almost 30 years - that is a fail.

What did they want? A wildfire sold out dvc…leading to more at port (fail)
And $100 more a night (minimum) at the other 3. (Fail)

So now they have flawed transport system that doesn’t get along with the weather too well in operation with not a lot of tangible gains.
Pop and Caribbean would have the same number of rooms booked with or without it.

I guess maybe they sold a few more lightning lanes for rise of the bad movies?

Net positive I guess?

 

[Andrew25]

Just for the record, ideally, I'd prefer a light rail or improved bus-only lanes. I always thought bus lanes were the more cost-effective/realistic option compared to the Skyliner.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Just for the record, ideally, I'd prefer a light rail or improved bus-only lanes. I always thought bus lanes were the more cost-effective/realistic option compared to the Skyliner.

They have always been the most efficient…even at huge cost

 

[mattpeto]

We can check the rack rates and see? I don’t recall how much they’ve risen…but if it’s not significantly more than the non-skyliner hotels…it fizzles

I’ll do some research

And they’ve been “soft” since they hit Chapeks covid wall in March of 2023. Which means bookings hit it in the summer/fall of 2022 at the latest

There is no disputing that

Agreed about "soft" for sure.

I know @lentesta has done some analysis before. AoA and Pop Century cost more than the All Stars, because of the skyliner.

Also Caribbean Beach is more than the other other moderates.

The "cost" difference is a topic in this article: https://www.disneytouristblog.com/biggest-discount-resorts-disney-world/

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I honestly don't see them adding a Skyliner station to Animal Kingdom without a station at AKL. It's just too glaring of an omission that would further reduce the resorts standing in comparison to the other deluxe resorts (and maybe even moderates if transportation options are the top consideration for someone booking a room). Some sort of train between AKL and DAK would be great, though, especially is Skyliner expansions are off the table, which they seem to be for now. I suppose a train is dependent on how suitable the ground is along the required path (and the cost to remediate it if it's not suitable).

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I honestly don't see them adding a Skyliner station to Animal Kingdom without a station at AKL. It's just too glaring of an omission that would further reduce the resorts standing in comparison to the other deluxe resorts (and maybe even moderates if transportation options are the top consideration for someone booking a room). Some sort of train between AKL and DAK would be great, though, especially is Skyliner expansions are off the table, which they seem to be for now. I suppose a train is dependent on how suitable the ground is along the required path (and the cost to remediate it if it's not suitable).

DAKL has never met “internal expectations”…is the reality

When they opened it…it was Eisner’s jewel
The average prices were the highest on property…true story

That lasted maybe 6 months and then they were slashed. The economic time was a big part of it. But not all of it.

So as we discussed…it’s very unlikely they’ll ever throw more money at it.

Which is a shame…because it is an architectural masterpiece and probably Disneys best built hotel ever.

Also…they would have to hug the existing road…because no way in hell AZA would approve a ski lift over animal care in 2025.

So what is the point then?

 

[Andrew25]

If they can build a highway, they can certainly build (at the very least) a light rail option.

Western Way isn't getting less congested, so they need to get on that roadway project soon. Hopefully with improved transit to connect the area to reduce traffic.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Agreed about "soft" for sure.

I know @lentesta has done some analysis before. AoA and Pop Century cost more than the All Stars, because of the skyliner.

Also Caribbean Beach is more than the other other moderates.

The "cost" difference is a topic in this article: https://www.disneytouristblog.com/biggest-discount-resorts-disney-world/

I'll say this, the Skyliner is the only reason I've ever stayed at Pop on the 2 occasions I booked there. None of the other Value resorts appeal to me at all (I suppose AoA could if I needed a family suite, but again that's purely because of the Skyliner it shares with Pop). Skyliner access to 2 parks plus access to additional dining options make it even more appealing to me than any non-CBR moderate, honestly.

 

[Purduevian]

So, how many more years until they just give up on the Skyliner? I'm betting about 8 more years until something happens on the line. Disney thinks it's unsafe they close it down as busses become the norm once again saving billions in electrical costs and be as extinct as the one like in MK and DL..

What makes you think the skyliner is unsafe? It's not some radical new idea Disney came up with. Also on the billions in electric front... not that we have exact numbers, but taking This as a resource, using the upper end of 1,000kwh per day *3 lines*365 days a year = 1,095,000 kwh per year. Kissimmee is ~0.16 per kwh so a total of ~$175,200 a year. So ~5,700 years until it costs a billion dollars in electrical costs.

We can check the rack rates and see? I don’t recall how much they’ve risen…but if it’s not significantly more than the non-skyliner hotels…it fizzles

I’ll do some research

And they’ve been “soft” since they hit Chapeks covid wall in March of 2023. Which means bookings hit it in the summer/fall of 2022 at the latest

There is no disputing that

I always like to look 4 months out to compare hotel prices.

Rack rate for July 19-26

Value:
All Stars Sports: $142
Music: $151
Movies: $151
Pop: $187
AOA: $230

Moderate:
Coronado $211
Riverside $226
French Quarter: $244
Caribbean beach $261

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

What makes you think the skyliner is unsafe? It's not some radical new idea Disney came up with. Also on the billions in electric front... not that we have exact numbers, but taking This as a resource, using the upper end of 1,000kwh per day *3 lines*365 days a year = 1,095,000 kwh per year. Kissimmee is ~0.16 per kwh so a total of ~$175,200 a year. So ~5,700 years until it costs a billion dollars in electrical costs.

I always like to look 4 months out to compare hotel prices.

Rack rate for July 19-26

Value:
All Stars Sports: $142
Music: $151
Movies: $151
Pop: $187
AOA: $230

Moderate:
Coronado $211
Riverside $226
French Quarter: $244
Caribbean beach $261

Exactly…those are not significant differences and the gap has not appreciably spiked since skyliner

 

[Purduevian]

Exactly…those are not significant differences and the gap has not appreciably spiked since skyliner

I would disagree...

Looking at POP 2018 rates Average rate was $182
Compared to All star movies (I think the most expensive all star) $162

So $20 per night OR ~12.3% increase for Pop vs movies

Now we can take POP 2025 Average rate of $294
vs All Star Movie 2025 Average of $230 per night

So $64 per night or ~12.8% increase for Pop vs movies

If we assume without the skyline, people were willing to pay $20 more per room per night. The skyliner added $44 per room per night*2,880 rooms*365 days per year = $46,252,800 per year for just POP by adding the skyliner

The more conservative approach (and probably more accurate) would say it added .5% increase which still =$1.47*2880 rooms*365 days a year still $1,545,264 per year in extra revenue by addinging the skyliner.

Now tack on AoA, Caribbean beach, and Rivera and Disney is pulling in Millions of dollars extra.

EDIT: Math was wrong in the strike out area... no idea how I did that. the 12.3% came from $20 (Difference in price)/ $162 (price of movies=0.12345679 or ~12.3%)

The correct difference for 2025 should have been 64/230=.27926087 or ~27.8%.

now following the rest of the math...

The other option would say it added 15.5% (27.8-12.3). 15.5% 294 is $45.57 of increase which is =$45.57*2880 rooms*365 days a year still $47,903,184 per year in extra revenue by adding the skyliner.

 

[lentesta]

Adjusted for inflation, All-Star is cheaper in 2025 than it was in 2018.

I haven't done the math on how much incremental cost Disney's been able to pass on at the Skyliner resorts. But I would definitely be interested in seeing it.

IIRC the Skyliner cost was $250MM.

 

[lentesta]

I would disagree...

Looking at POP 2018 rates Average rate was $182
Compared to All star movies (I think the most expensive all star) $162

So $20 per night OR ~12.3% increase for Pop vs movies

Now we can take POP 2025 Average rate of $294
vs All Star Movie 2025 Average of $230 per night

So $64 per night or ~12.8% increase for Pop vs movies

If we assume without the skyline, people were willing to pay $20 more per room per night. The skyliner added $44 per room per night*2,880 rooms*365 days per year = $46,252,800 per year for just POP by adding the skyliner

The more conservative approach (and probably more accurate) would say it added .5% increase which still =$1.47*2880 rooms*365 days a year still $1,545,264 per year in extra revenue by addinging the skyliner.

Now tack on AoA, Caribbean beach, and Rivera and Disney is pulling in Millions of dollars extra.

I think this would be my baseline assumption to start too. Nice work.