Say NO To Genie+ PETITION

[LittleBuford]

Oh, they understand it. They just aren't as price sensitive as the folks who are against it (either because they can afford it, or are so addicted they will afford it, somehow).

You’re painting a somewhat reductive picture of where people stand. As a big fan of FP+, I don’t like this new system, but I will pay for it to minimise my time in queues. I’m neither wealthy nor addicted; $15 a day just happens to be affordable for me (my trips are short, and I travel alone or with my partner).

 

[Casper Gutman]

I think some of us are working with different definitions of Disney. Your definition is one centred on (perceived) value, which is fair enough, whereas mine is centred on the product itself. The product offered by Universal is of no interest to me. It doesn't matter how good a value it is; I simply have no use for it. The characters, songs, ambience, and experiences I want are only to be found at Disney.

This isn't correct for me, and I don't think its correct for the poster to whom you're responding. If Disney's value had declined due to increased prices - if prices had skyrocketed at Disney but the product had remained consistent or improved - I'd grumble, but I'd skimp and save and, possibly, stay off property, and try to manage an extended trip every few years.

But that's not what happened. The "product" - the park experience - has declined precipitously. The parks and resorts are intentionally understaffed. Entertainment has been slashed, with all the little shows that made Disney Disney eliminated. What entertainment remains has grown stale from lack of refreshing. Maintenance has been inexcusably neglected. Disney has refused to build the facilities needed to increase capacity even as crowds have surged, so the streets are packed, lines are long, and the staff that hasn't been eliminated is grossly overstretched. And new rides have been slow in coming and often lackluster.

A lot of the above isn't opinion, by the way.

But the value/ product dichotomy is a false one, anyway. Prices effect the product - forcing guests to pay $15 to ride the big rides directly effects the product offered, the park experience. What's more, the declining state of the parks and skyrocketing prices - the worsening product and declining value - both stem from the very same executive philosophy that is driving WDW.

 

[Chi84]

Actually, for a significant group (none of the regulars on these boards, as far as I can see), the price is an advantage - the more expensive something is, the more luxurious, the more it demonstrates individual financial success. Telling people you went to WDW once meant you were part of a large and comfortable middle class - increasingly, it means you have lots and lots of money. Conspicuous consumption.

Is that really what you think motivates people at a theme park? Being able to brag about individual financial success? Why is it necessary to promote such a narrow-minded, negative view of people (not the ones on this board, of course) simply because they may not agree with your perception of value?

 

[LittleBuford]

This isn't correct for me, and I don't think its correct for the poster to whom you're responding. If Disney's value had declined due to increased prices - if prices had skyrocketed at Disney but the product had remained consistent or improved - I'd grumble, but I'd skimp and save and, possibly, stay off property, and try to manage an extended trip every few years.

But that's not what happened. The "product" - the park experience - has declined precipitously. The parks and resorts are intentionally understaffed. Entertainment has been slashed, with all the little shows that made Disney Disney eliminated. What entertainment remains has grown stale from lack of refreshing. Maintenance has been inexcusably neglected. Disney has refused to build the facilities needed to increase capacity even as crowds have surged, so the streets are packed, lines are long, and the staff that hasn't been eliminated is grossly overstretched. And new rides have been slow in coming and often lackluster.

A lot of the above isn't opinion, by the way.

But the value/ product dichotomy is a false one, anyway. Prices effect the product - forcing guests to pay $15 to ride the big rides directly effects the product offered, the park experience. What's more, the declining state of the parks and skyrocketing prices - the worsening product and declining value - both stem from the very same executive philosophy that is driving WDW.

I respect your opinion. I have no interest in convincing you that WDW remains a quality product. I will never share your perspective, however, and I don’t understand why you can’t accept that and just leave me to my own viewpoint.

 

[LittleBuford]

Is that really what you think motivates people at a theme park? Being able to brag about individual financial success? Why is it necessary to promote such a narrow-minded, negative view of people (not the ones on this board, of course) simply because they may not agree with your perception of value?

If there are people out there flaunting expensive holidays as a way of enhancing their status, I very much doubt that Disney is the brand they’re using for the purpose. WDW may not be cheap, but neither is it something most people associate with luxury or prestige.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I respect your opinion. I have no interest in convincing you that WDW remains a quality product. I will never share your perspective, however, and I don’t understand why you can’t accept that and just leave me to my own viewpoint.

You are absolutely free to have your own viewpoint. This is a internet board designed for the expression and sharing of viewpoints, so I feel free to offer my own. The post you are responding to was one in which you attempted to define the viewpoints of others, which on a board like this, is fine. I was disputing that definition.

I hope you have a wonderful experience each and every time you visit WDW.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Is that really what you think motivates people at a theme park? Being able to brag about individual financial success? Why is it necessary to promote such a narrow-minded, negative view of people (not the ones on this board, of course) simply because they may not agree with your perception of value?

Some people, yes. Conspicuous consumption is not something I came up with - its a really, really well-established phenomenon in both academic and popular culture, so I don't quite grasp why I have crossed a line by suggesting it might exist among theme park fans.

And WDW has been intentionally positioning themselves for the luxury crowd. It has been their philosophy. We know this, from our insiders and from the arrival of things like Golden Oaks and Four Seasons. On these very boards we have posters cheering for price increases to drive out the dregs from WDW and improve the experience for those, like themselves, who can pay.

And yes, for certain segments of the population, Disney is EXACTLY the sort of brand they'd use to make their consumption conspicuous.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I think some of us are working with different definitions of Disney. Your definition is one centred on (perceived) value, which is fair enough, whereas mine is centred on the product itself. The product offered by Universal is of no interest to me. It doesn't matter how good a value it is; I simply have no use for it. The characters, songs, ambience, and experiences I want are only to be found at Disney.

Both Disney parks and Universal parks are of high quality in my mind

Value for the dollar is different than quality. We all know there is a lot better value in lodging, food, drink and merch off properly.

WDW will continue to raise prices on everything allowing the surrounding venues to raise their prices too.

Fact is, prices for everything in WDW will continue to climb and some families will be priced out.

Quality, value, whatever label you want to use, it doesn’t matter, it will simply become too expensive for some families to vacation at WDW. Families who can still afford it will continue to go there

 

[eliza61nyc]

Actually, for a significant group (none of the regulars on these boards, as far as I can see), the price is an advantage - the more expensive something is, the more luxurious, the more it demonstrates individual financial success. Telling people you went to WDW once meant you were part of a large and comfortable middle class - increasingly, it means you have lots and lots of money. Conspicuous consumption.

You've got to be kidding lol. Who in their right mind views going to an amusement park as some sort of indicator to financial success?? Most folks can't understand why an adult without small kids wants to go period and those of us who go a lot generally get the question "you're going to Disney AGAIN"?

The average person does not view wdw as some sort of exclusive vacation destination. Most see it as something that must be done with the kiddos

 

[LittleBuford]

Both Disney parks and Universal parks are of high quality in my mind

Value for the dollar is different than quality. We all know there is a lot better value in lodging, food, drink and merch off properly.

WDW will continue to raise prices on everything allowing the surrounding venues to raise their prices too.

Fact is, prices for everything in WDW will continue to climb and some families will be priced out.

Quality, value, whatever label you want to use, it doesn’t matter, it will simply become too expensive for some families to vacation at WDW. Families who can still afford it will continue to go there

I don't think any of this is in conflict with what I wrote. I'm not saying Universal is low in quality; it just isn't what I want to spend my money on. Nor am I denying that Disney is expensive and, for many families, unaffordable.

 

[LittleBuford]

Most folks can't understand why an adult without small kids wants to go period and those of us who go a lot generally get the question "you're going to Disney AGAIN"?

Indeed. Far from showing off, I usually feel I have to justify myself when friends and family quiz me on why I would visit Disney. Among my academic colleagues, I'm almost entirely closeted!

 

[Chi84]

You've got to be kidding lol. Who in their right mind views going to an amusement park as some sort of indicator to financial success?? Most folks can't understand why an adult without small kids wants to go period and those of us who go a lot generally get the question "you're going to Disney AGAIN"?

The average person does not view wdw as some sort of exclusive vacation destination. Most see it as something that must be done with the kiddos

We know the same people, except yours seem kinder. Mine point out that we could actually take the family to see the real world instead of going to the World Showcase in Epcot. It may be different for families with very young children who want to see characters and go on the popular Disney rides. It is becoming more of a luxury for them, so maybe that's what provoked the comment that some regard a WDW vacation as a status symbol. That just hasn't been my experience.

 

[bcoachable]

Yup. I love Disney. I’ve been to WDW more then 60 times. At some time or other, I’ve gone with pretty much everyone I’ve been close to. I love Star Wars. I REALLY love Marvel. I think the MCU is, genuinely, a staggering achievement. My fondness for Disney has seriously impacted the choices I’ve made in my professional life.

And all of that makes me more incensed at the way management has been neglecting that tradition of excellence, exploiting nostalgia, and, in doing so, attempting to leverage something I love to exploit me. EPCOT used to be my favorite place in the world. That EPCOT, with World of Motion, Horizons, Journey into Imagination, lives on in my memory and heart. But the Epcot that I can visit now is a blasted wasteland - almost literally. A monument to greed and foolishness and indifference.

Universal properties don’t mean very much to me. I like the monsters, but the parks don’t utilize them much. Potter is fine. I’ve always found the Jurassic franchise very overrated. But what Universal offers is the things that CREATED my WDW nostalgia in the first place - a constantly growing, reasonably priced, artistically ambitious place where I can build memories with people that matter to me without being blatantly exploited.

Guests who return, again and again, to modern WDW because of nostalgia and fondness for the IPs are helping execs who care nothing for those memories or characters, who had nothing to do with creating or developing them, reduce them to grotesque tools to gouge people. It’s a violation of the very nostalgia that drives people back. The thing that makes Disney special is inside the guest. It is absent from WDW.

At the end of the day, Universal has the one element WDW has lacked for over a decade - they seem to be trying to create a pleasurable theme park. And that’s enough.

This post can’t be glanced over…so I’ll quote its just to see it again!

 

[Tom P.]

Actually, for a significant group (none of the regulars on these boards, as far as I can see), the price is an advantage - the more expensive something is, the more luxurious, the more it demonstrates individual financial success. Telling people you went to WDW once meant you were part of a large and comfortable middle class - increasingly, it means you have lots and lots of money. Conspicuous consumption.

This idea that Disney has stopped being attainable for the middle class and that they are only catering to people with "lots and lots of money" is just not true. The average daily attendance at the Magic Kingdom is over 50,000 people (assuming no Covid-related capacity restrictions). The yearly attendance in 2019 was almost 21 million people. There are more than 36,000 hotel rooms on property alone and their occupancy is always high.

Either you are wrong in your assessment or there are way more people with "lots and lots of money" than we think.

 

[Disstevefan1]

This idea that Disney has stopped being attainable for the middle class and that they are only catering to people with "lots and lots of money" is just not true. The average daily attendance at the Magic Kingdom is over 50,000 people (assuming no Covid-related capacity restrictions). The yearly attendance in 2019 was almost 21 million people. There are more than 36,000 hotel rooms on property alone and their occupancy is always high.

Either you are wrong in your assessment or there are way more people with "lots and lots of money" than we think.

Let’s see how the numbers stand up after Genie + and Lighting Lane is fully kicked in, especially the room occupancy. Genie + and Lighting Land, and loss of Magical Express may help off site resorts which is a good thing for the whole of Central Florida and not just WDW.

My guess is a combination of folks just accepting paying more (like we always have done) and WDW making tweaks to the system, a ton of folks will still come.

Having said that, there will be families priced out. Don’t sell SeaWorld short. It’s a lot of fun.

 

[Daveyploo]

You've got to be kidding lol. Who in their right mind views going to an amusement park as some sort of indicator to financial success??

Unless you're going in to debt to do it, if you can blow 4/5 grand (or sometimes even more) a year on a trip to Disneyland/Disney World, that definitely indicates some level of financial stability and/or success.

You might be surprised how many people can't afford that price to take their family to these kinds of places, and instead spend that money on bills and just trying to get by day to day.

 

[Tom P.]

Unless you're going in to debt to do it, if you can blow 4/5 grand (or sometimes even more) a year on a trip to Disneyland/Disney World, that definitely indicates some level of financial stability and/or success.

You might be surprised how many people can't afford that price to take their family to these kinds of places, and instead spend that money on bills and just trying to get by day to day.

What percentage of visitors to Walt Disney World do you think aren't going into debt of some kind to do it? I would say that percentage is extremely small. That's not a good thing, but I think it's reality in America today. Heck, not just today. I still remember a joke from an old I Love Lucy episode where they are going on a trip and Ricky tells Lucy they can't start by borrowing money, and Lucy responds with something to the effect of, "Why not, that's how all Americans start their vacations?"

 

[Indy_UK]

All those saying your going to Universal as a result of this, I’m sure you’ll all be back in 18 months.

No matter what people say, it’s not as good of a product especially those families with younger kids.

Universal have always wanted to be Disney but they won’t

 

[DisneyHead123]

You've got to be kidding lol. Who in their right mind views going to an amusement park as some sort of indicator to financial success?? Most folks can't understand why an adult without small kids wants to go period and those of us who go a lot generally get the question "you're going to Disney AGAIN"?

The average person does not view wdw as some sort of exclusive vacation destination. Most see it as something that must be done with the kiddos

I can see both of your POVs here. On the one hand, yeah, saying Disney is brag-worthy for the Jet Set is ridiculous. It's not even brag worthy for young travel snobs who live on ramen noodles in order to afford their food tour of South America or spiritual quest in Bali.

On the other hand, there is definitely a subset of upper middle class families for whom Disney vacation photos on social media are almost as obligatory as:

- Having professional child or family photo shoots every 2-3 years and promising a "sneak peek" of said photos on social media which, I'm sorry, I can't figure out. Apologies if you've done this, not trying to be rude. But I don't get the assumption that I am waiting with bated breath to view the baby or family photos of someone I worked with 8 years ago, to the point of needing a teaser before the actual event.

- Driving past miles of shoreline every summer to go to one of the "right" beaches. The right beaches contain juice bars and vintage bicycle rentals, and an unofficial ban on selling airbrushed products. Also some manner of iconic sweets store (donuts, ice cream, fudge, coconut macaroons,) that gets lines around the block.

- Paying copious amounts of money at Pottery Barn Kids or Etsy to create a 'this is actually homemade and inexpensive' look for your child's birthday parties, holiday costumes, and room decorations.

- Displaying their non authoritarian approach to parenting in posters placed artistically around the playroom, with 'rules' like "In this family, we try new things. We make mistakes. We never stop exploring." and throw pillows that say things like "Wild and beautiful".

- Decals. Just, in general, vinyl decals. In the shape of mountains on the nursery walls, with quotable sayings on the water bottle, in the form of charming labels on essential oils containers.

Sorry. That was a bit of an observational tangent. But for this group of people, yes, the family photos at Disney are as obligatory as the Christmas card photos in matching Christmas pajamas. That's not an endless free ride for Disney though. This is the case because Disney is seen as embodying certain values. As I've said before, I think paid FastPasses are Disney's most dangerous move yet not because of the money factor, but because of the stylistic factor. Pottery Barn Kids would not rule among this set if it started selling kids pajamas that said things like "One Rad Little Dude" in neon halftone printing. They are selling to a very specific audience with very specific tastes.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Unless you're going in to debt to do it, if you can blow 4/5 grand (or sometimes even more) a year on a trip to Disneyland/Disney World, that definitely indicates some level of financial stability and/or success.

You might be surprised how many people can't afford that price to take their family to these kinds of places, and instead spend that money on bills and just trying to get by day to day.

Here's the thing, that pretty much could be said of just about every thing. remember the housing crash and the story of janitors buying multimillion dollar houses. People leasing luxury cars in order to drive them.

Now I wouldn't be surprised at all. lol I can tell you that there were many trips, not just to Disney that have been cancelled because there simply wasn't enough money and we had one year where we were attempting to pay for 3 college tuitions. lol Disney?? my late husband use to joke we were lucky if we could afford to cross the street. I just don't know where this idea came from that if you go to Disney you are somehow rich. I assure you I am not and now that I'm retired I'm even more careful with my budget.

lastly, many folks who do go to Disney sacrifice a lot during the year to save for their vacation, for many years my husband and I skipped gifts and eating out in order to go on vacation, I was reading about one poster who said they put every thing on their Disney chase visa, utilities, bills, mortgage, everything so after two years they have enough points to cover 85% of their trip. nice

Now I don't know if the higher ups in Disney are plotting to keep poor folks out, I have no inside information but I will say that I don't remember this glorious period where Disney was cheap and anyone who wanted to go could afford it. I fully remember my parents %^$iching about the cost and this was back in the 70's