Rolly Crump on the State of Disneyland

[SuddenStorm]

The main issue is where it is located ( Disneyland Park ).
Strongly against the decision to place it there.


Tony is however a fan of the original 'Star Wars' films, and he loves to experience themed areas, so a part of him is looking forward to seeing the end result and the new Attractions when the time comes.
His opinion and eventual review of the effort I am interested in hearing, but I can say for certain that he is definitely not pleased with it's placement.

-

Naturally. I think many fans would me more open to Galaxy's edge if it wasn't being placed in Disneyland.

 

[Disney Irish]

It's not the sight lines that bother him....
It is where this SW area is being placed, in Disneyland Park, that is a big issue...... and to a lesser extent, what had originally been developed to go on the very plot of land instead.

I agree with Tony's sentiments 120%.

Should have been built at DCA.

-

Problem here, and he knows it, there wasn't a large enough area in DCA that would handle what they wanted to do. So its to coin flip, remove a mostly backstage area that will disrupt very little or rip out an entire section of DCA that would disrupt most of DCA.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

I like this guy. What's he building now...the House of Illusions?! Or, whadda we call it?

 

[smile]

Problem here, and he knows it, there wasn't a large enough area in DCA that would handle what they wanted to do. So its to coin flip, remove a mostly backstage area that will disrupt very little or rip out an entire section of DCA that would disrupt most of DCA.

how novel - the quick fix instead of the right one...
should have made that work, for many reasons; some quite obvious.

at one point, sw could/should have been it's own park.
tbh, a younger me would have never thought an older me would be kinda grateful that didn't happen.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Problem here, and he knows it, there wasn't a large enough area in DCA that would handle what they wanted to do. So its to coin flip, remove a mostly backstage area that will disrupt very little or rip out an entire section of DCA that would disrupt most of DCA.

Sure, ripping out the backstage disrupted very little short term- the Railroad and the River attractions- but now we're losing seating, planters, with more changes rumored to come before the land opens. Not to mention the long term impact on having Galaxy's Edge there- the loss of the possibility of having something unique and exciting back there that helps expand Disneyland's mythology, as opposed to acting independently from the rest of the park.

There are a few solutions. They could have reworked Galaxy's Edge with DCA in mind, or, frankly, disrupting DCA for its long term benefit isn't such a bad idea.

Disneyland Park is held to a higher standard, and putting a cookie cutter land that's having 2 duplicates built across the world is a short sighted solution designed to cash in on the one IP land fad and compete with Potter (which frankly, Disney doesn't need to do). No other theme park has the impact on its guests that Disneyland does- the cult following and religious fanaticism that Disneyland invokes is unique and unparalleled.

Back in the day, they would rework attractions to fit in their specific park. BTMRR was designed to look more charming in Disneyland, and more grand in WDW. Same goes for Splash Mountain.

So how does a (near) identical Galaxy's Edge work in both Disneyland, and Hollywood Studios? Two vastly different parks in their approach to theme and IP.

 

[Disney Irish]

how novel - the quick fix instead of the right one...
should have made that work, for many reasons; some quite obvious.

at one point, sw could/should have been it's own park.
tbh, a younger me would have never thought an older me would be kinda grateful that didn't happen.

I'm not even going to begin to go into the ridiculous discussion of trying to get a 3rd park in Anaheim. It ain't happening anytime in the next 20+ years if ever, so lets not start that.

 

[Disney Irish]

Sure, ripping out the backstage disrupted very little short term- the Railroad and the River attractions- but now we're losing seating, planters, with more changes rumored to come before the land opens. Not to mention the long term impact on having Galaxy's Edge there- the loss of the possibility of having something unique and exciting back there that helps expand Disneyland's mythology, as opposed to acting independently from the rest of the park.

If they hadn't put something unique back there in 25+ years, despite all the rumored projects, they weren't going to.

All the crowd flow changes due to SW:GE were projects that quite frankly needed to happen anyways.

There are a few solutions. They could have reworked Galaxy's Edge with DCA in mind, or, frankly, disrupting DCA for its long term benefit isn't such a bad idea.

Disneyland Park is held to a higher standard, and putting a cookie cutter land that's having 2 duplicates built across the world is a short sighted solution designed to cash in on the one IP land fad and compete with Potter (which frankly, Disney doesn't need to do). No other theme park has the impact on its guests that Disneyland does- the cult following and religious fanaticism that Disneyland invokes is unique and unparalleled.

Back in the day, they would rework attractions to fit in their specific park. BTMRR was designed to look more charming in Disneyland, and more grand in WDW. Same goes for Splash Mountain.

So how does a (near) identical Galaxy's Edge work in both Disneyland, and Hollywood Studios? Two vastly different parks in their approach to theme and IP.

Where in DCA? Name the expansion area in DCA with 14 acres of land for SW and another 9-14 acres of land for Marvel where it doesn't completely bulldoze almost half of the park? Plus then wouldn't we be hearing the same arguments we are hearing now, what does SW have to do with CA? Why'd they put it in DCA and not some place else? Why, why, why, why..... Its a never ending thing, fans will always find something to complain about, its what fans do. And its understandable, but Disney can't make business decisions just based on fans and what they want. Especially since there is no consensus on what fans want.

As for DHS, you can say they got the short end of the stick here. It was purpose built with DL in mind, DHS got the copy. Likely because TDO didn't want to pay to have a unique land of their own.

 

[SteamboatJoe]

He makes some valid points but something tells me he was a guy very few at the office really liked. Seems like he had Walt's ear but once Walt passed, he lost that inside track because of his gruff personality.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

By and large, it seems like many Imagineers are in direct competition with each other. It's sad really, but it is the new environment post Walt. He seemed to go for the best ideas but stressed cooperation among his creative teams to achieve the best product.

 

[nevol]

Sure, ripping out the backstage disrupted very little short term- the Railroad and the River attractions- but now we're losing seating, planters, with more changes rumored to come before the land opens. Not to mention the long term impact on having Galaxy's Edge there- the loss of the possibility of having something unique and exciting back there that helps expand Disneyland's mythology, as opposed to acting independently from the rest of the park.

There are a few solutions. They could have reworked Galaxy's Edge with DCA in mind, or, frankly, disrupting DCA for its long term benefit isn't such a bad idea.

Disneyland Park is held to a higher standard, and putting a cookie cutter land that's having 2 duplicates built across the world is a short sighted solution designed to cash in on the one IP land fad and compete with Potter (which frankly, Disney doesn't need to do). No other theme park has the impact on its guests that Disneyland does- the cult following and religious fanaticism that Disneyland invokes is unique and unparalleled.

Back in the day, they would rework attractions to fit in their specific park. BTMRR was designed to look more charming in Disneyland, and more grand in WDW. Same goes for Splash Mountain.

So how does a (near) identical Galaxy's Edge work in both Disneyland, and Hollywood Studios? Two vastly different parks in their approach to theme and IP.

Posted this in July on the star wars forum and I'll repost here. (accidentally no longer a perfect quote; I made some tweaks)
---
What I love about Disneyland and its Americana/hard facts ingredient can sort of be summed up the following way: The park builds out a linearity of ideas and national myths and identity through these environments. They are the basis for the entire disneyland experience. Main street is turn of the century optimistic victorian america. To the left you see how this white america and its european ancestry viewed/fetishized/made exotic the rest of the world through their limited understanding of them. In frontierland you see where manifest destiny and all of that optimism brought us to the frontier, where white people held this belief that everything belonged to them and they battled both natives and the wilderness. To the right of the hub you have tomorrowland, where this trajectory of western thought and western civilization will take us. Tomorrowland is where main street, and frontierland, eventually arrive with newer technology but the same logic, ambition, premise to society. Behind the castle you have the european stories that we brought to the US from Europe. While the park is secular, and fantasyland dark rides arent religious, it is true that the castles play the same role in the center of the park that christian churches played in medieval cities, not to mention thta main street has the same layout as a standard christian/catholic basilica plan church with its roof ripped off. We approach the altar in a church during ritual/ceremony and we understand that it is a significant, transcendent moment. We are drinking the blood of christ, getting married, saying goodbye to a loved one, for example. When we walk down main street, subconsciously, we are transcending, we are engaging something important, we just don't realize that the familiarity of the progression through the arrival sequence and entrance mimics the church so accurately. This is all important not because disneyland is or needs to be american propaganda; but because it is the logical foundation of our american, western, and now 21st century global frame of mind. The fact that it isn't historically accurate is irellevant, because what matters most is that this is our narrativized story and identity. We understand it. All stories leverage, recycle, and reference ideas, symbols, images, aesthetics from reality. Disneyland's lands are the language we need to know in order to be able to understand any of the stories being told in the rides. So for IP attractions to work, and to feel more provocative and important, we can place them in a thematic context. Disneyland doesn't just blur the line between Abe lincoln and George Lucas's characters; it DRAWS the lines, just as it draws those connections between main street, frontierland, and tomorrowland. We see the same heroes/anti-heroes, conflicts, journeys, both fantasy and fiction, repeated over and over again, and we can contextualize them and relate to them that way.

Star wars is a cowboy and indians story, and as much as our society roots for the good guys, our country behaves a lot more like the empire/first order. Placing star wars land on the northern edge of the rivers of america makes a ton of sense to me because of the coincidental recycling of american history, conflict, and themes in the IP and in the land's orientation, and how it aligns perfectly with the orientation of frontierland. On the eastern edge of galaxy's edge, the city/marketplace has been occupied by the first order. This is directly north of frontierland's town. On the western edge of galaxy's edge, the resistance is hiding in the wilderness, not far from where native americans are keeping watch over the river on the rivers of america. It makes far more sense to me now that this land is located here rather than tomorrowland because despite what everybody assumes, the relationship between star wars and tomorrowland is very weak. The only thematic glue holding it together is a shared manifestation theme of outer space. Otherwise, tomorrowland is supposed to be peaceful, and star wars is stuck in the violence of america's history. (this is also why I think Star wars isn't resonating well with chinese audiences; not just because the new movies aren't as good, but because the cultural lens with which to understand these stories isn't there; it's too western/american. Its too frontierland/cowboys and Indians.) Disney would never tell us which team to root for, or point out the relationship between star wars fiction and our own national story. But the proximity of the lands does allow some visitors to realize these parallels, and see their own history and identity through a new light. In other words, Star Wars IN disneyland near frontierland allows disneyland to answer to its dedication to the hard facts that have created America. Yes, I said it, and I mean it. IP done right can be sophisticated, historical, inspiring, meaningful. Whether innate or on purpose, this project in this location makes a ton of sense and it will do more to answer to Walt's dedication speech than anything since IASW or Carousel of Progress. Shoot me for it.

Newer disneylands (really just the newest) and the third gates and the competition are completely missing this. I don't believe the company appreciates how truly significant a role this plays. People might not know they want new orleans square or main street or even a frontierland anymore, but without it framing the narrative and guests' perspective, we can't fully appreciate the surrealism or the meaning of the IP juggernauts either. DCA can try all it wants to compete on the basis of IP with disneyland, but if the park isn't about anything deeper, isn't saying anything profound or relatable about the california identity and state of mind, all we'll have are unrelated rides floating in space and a lot of boring meaninglessness as we traverse the park from big moment A to big moment B. People forget that disneyland is just as entertaining when you walk off of Pirates into the streets of new orleans as it is on the boat.

Disneyland is still the best theme park on the planet. Nothing new has come close to topping it. EPCOT was admirably ambitious but where it missed its mark was being a ride-the-6th-grade-textbook park rather than a surreal fantasy version of itself. It doesn't draw the connections or make personal why we should care about communication, culture, mobility, space, the land, energy. The ideas are all separated and depersonalized. Compare this with disneyland, where every ride/narrative is a brush with death, a reassuring survival story, a regurgitation of familiar mythology. We pay attention because our senses don't want us to die. We know its fake but we don't trust the technology enough to trust that we won't still die. Nothing in epcot understands how disneyland tells stories successfully, or tries to apply the same thrills and evolutionary sensory manipulation to its edutainment/pedagogy. Imagine if universe of energy and horizons/mission space were rolled into one, and narrativized instead of narrated, so that an energy crisis on earth warranted this space exploration for the sake of ensuring our species preservation/survival, which is what motivates space-x/elon musk and ultimately the new shared mythology of the 21st century. It would be the 21st century's answer to Disneyland, which captured the decades of optimism and the potential of endless expansion that we felt after ww2. Until then, Disneyland will still be number one and everything else will just exist to sell IP merchandise. I've come to enjoy other parks less upon really getting to the root of what I love about Disneyland."
---
You really seem to be downplaying SWL. It isn't just "some IP land." I'm not a star wars fanatic, and I would barely consider myself a casual fan. But this project clearly has a ton of heart, soul, thoughtfulness, and money behind it. Complaining that it is a cloned land in both resorts and therefore not unique or charming in disneyland is also inaccurate, as it was clearly designed for disneyland. Its rockwork wrap around and replace our berm, its show buildings at its exterior. It draws from the best area design qualities of new orleans square and will deliver the most immersive and enjoyable pedestrian experience Disney has delivered since then. Its dark rides are both a brush with death, which will make them fun and deliver on the ingredients of reassurance. And they will be different, as we have seen lately that the rockwork at disneyland's is far more realistic/natural and respectful of the ROA than DHS's is. Complaining that even still, it is a massive tumor of a single IP land on disneyland when it doesn't have those, is silly, because how often do we reminisce about the indiana jones mega attraction that would have had 2 new rides and changed the experiences of two more, the railroad and jungle cruise?

 

[choco choco]

Where in DCA? Name the expansion area in DCA with 14 acres of land for SW

Why does SW have to be 9-14 acres?

...and another 9-14 acres of land for Marvel where it doesn't completely bulldoze almost half of the park?

• Simba Lot

****
Disney cannot complain that DCA isn't pulling the numbers and then turn around and place what they think will be their money-making land in the park that doesn't need help. It's not like they care about thematic fit in their parks anyways. It didn't fit in DL. It didn't fit in DCA. But if DCA needs more help and had the bigger helping of land (a 30 acre flat parking lot that didn't require bull-dozing anything), then you put it there.

The decision to put it where they put it is illogical. I wrote a lengthy post many years ago about the master-planning issues they would encounter down the road by doing what they did. If I remember Spirit tell it from long ago, Iger demanded it go in DL simply because he wanted a legacy project in his name at that park.

 

[nevol]

Why does SW have to be 9-14 acres?

• Simba Lot

****
Disney cannot complain that DCA isn't pulling the numbers and then turn around and place what they think will be their money-making land in the park that doesn't need help. It's not like they care about thematic fit in their parks anyways. It didn't fit in DL. It didn't fit in DCA. But if DCA needs more help and had the bigger helping of land (a 30 acre flat parking lot that didn't require bull-dozing anything), then you put it there.

The decision to put it where they put it is illogical. I wrote a lengthy post many years ago about the master-planning issues they would encounter down the road by doing what they did. If I remember Spirit tell it from long ago, Iger demanded it go in DL simply because he wanted a legacy project in his name at that park.

It makes more sense in Disneyland than it would have in DCA, if we are to respect dca's "theme" at all. See above. If it were going to DCA, it could work as a mirror image of itself, with a land fade from Grizzly Peak into Batuu with just a tad more of Endor (with the removal of paradise pier) or north of cars land with the complete removal of so much else. Everybody complaining about Disneyland getting a new land and 2 new E-tickets, a project that you already disagree with before seeing it, yet a project that represents the best that WDI is capable of in this moment. Would you rather we get a mediocre fantasyland "expansion" with 7 dwarfs mine train? I certainly would not. Preferring projects from a company that has proven itself not to care about much of anything over the one project they do care about doesn't seem like a safe bet. Galaxy's Edge is a far superior alternative to the likes of Toy Story Land or whatever else they've been up to lately. We could always have zero changes to disneyland, and go another decade complaining that we haven't had a new E-ticket since indiana jones and that tomorrowland is rotting in plain sight. The money pouring in from Galaxy's edge and the crowds will push them and enable them to flip the east side of the park and infill the northeast corner between fantasyland and tomorrowland.

 

[mlayton144]

SWGE has no place in Disneyland period, the fact that it fits better than in DCA is besides the point , no one really cares what fits into DCA because it’s incoherent to start with. Any addition to Disneyland should have been original ala POC, HM, IASW with an idealized version of anything Americana. Grizzly river run would fit better in DL than Star Wars

 

[nevol]

SWGE has no place in Disneyland period, the fact that it fits better than in DCA is besides the point , no one really cares what fits into DCA because it’s incoherent to start with. Any addition to Disneyland should have been original ala POC, HM, IASW with an idealized version of anything Americana. Grizzly river run would fit better in DL than Star Wars

Lol okay. Good luck with that. Guess they should remove
Snow White's Scary Adventures
Dumbo
Peter Pan's Flight
King Arthur's Carousel
Casey Jr Circus Train
Pinocchio's Daring Journey
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride
Sleeping Beauty Castle Walkthrough
Storybookland Canal Boats
Mad Tea Party
Alice in Wonderland
Mickey's Toontown and Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin
Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage
Star Tours
Buzz Lightyear Astroblasters
Pixie Hollow
Indiana Jones Adventure
Tarzan's Treehouse
Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer's Island
Splash Mountain
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh

This discussion is obviously absurd and I won't continue to argue about it. You could have just said that you would have preferred a non-IP original E-ticket (which in the previous decade include nothing much more than the likes of Soarin, Mystic Manor, and Everest, and Mission: Space) and that the park is out of balance without a few more of those or some edutainment in the mix (like carousel of progress, america sings, adventures thru inner space) but you are drawing such a hard line in the sand that it sounds ridiculous. Do I yearn for another high capacity animatronic musical attraction like those classics you mentioned from the 60s? Absolutely. But not necessarily instead of SW:GE. Also, SW:GE, sorry to say, is more Americana due to its place in pop culture, disneyland for the past 30 years, and the land and IP's cowboy vs indians mythology than any of the above, including Grizzly River Run. Grizzly River Run doesn't belong in Disneyland at all, by the way. It has less show than just about everything in disneyland, where attractions regardless of type are rich with show and theme. Think about it in comparison to all of the vastly different boat rides, the narration and escapism of the mark twain, the psychedelic immersion of splash mountain. It would stick out like a sore thumb as something truly unremarkable, little more than a ride system native to regional amusement parks wrapped in trees. SW:GE with IP will be vastly superior than a thoughtless, rushed, and under-budgeted non-ip E-ticket-lite.

What people are not expecting but I believe will be the case, is that GE won't feel like a tumor on disneyland, something so brand new and different from the rest that it sticks out like a sore thumb, but instead have some instantly timeless qualities to it. It is very respectful of theme park design principles in general while also pushing the envelope in new ways, innovating where WDI hasn't in several decades. It'll be the most disneyland thing to happen to disneyland since splash mountain. I'm hoping for a non-IP or IP-lite Tomorrowland and actually appreciate that SW:GE takes the edge off of that land as the place to push this IP. I'm chuckling imagining you in a design meeting slamming your fist on the table and saying "SW:GE doesn't belong in Disneyland, PERIOD." Emphasizing an argument with some phrase in the realm of "END OF DISCUSSION" doesn't actually strengthen your argument, it shows a lack of support for it with a side of an authoritarian parenting style.

 

[mlayton144]

Wow , the panties are in quite a bunch. SW equals cowboys and Indians. Who are the cowboys are who are the indians again ?

 

[nevol]

Wow , the panties are in quite a bunch. SW equals cowboys and Indians. Who are the cowboys are who are the indians again ?

It is quite obvious.

Again, no actual substance to what you are saying; attacking me for having my "panties in a bunch" when I am actually very calmly pointing out the failures of your argument while you are the one being hysterical that it isn't 1965 anymore.

 

[Disney Irish]

Why does SW have to be 9-14 acres?

Because 14 acres is what was decided for SW:GE in order to be a "Potter Killer".

• Simba Lot

Simba Lot is not connected to the parks, which I'm sure is your point. But then you have to deal with the permitting of changing from a parking permit to a land use for theme park expansion. And with Anaheim politics being the way they are there is no guarantee that would have been approved.

Its the same with Toy Story lot, not currently permitted to be used for anything but parking for now.

****
Disney cannot complain that DCA isn't pulling the numbers and then turn around and place what they think will be their money-making land in the park that doesn't need help. It's not like they care about thematic fit in their parks anyways. It didn't fit in DL. It didn't fit in DCA. But if DCA needs more help and had the bigger helping of land (a 30 acre flat parking lot that didn't require bull-dozing anything), then you put it there.

Which is why they are trying to get Marvel in there. Things have just gotten delayed because of the Anaheim political issues. Plus the other things we've learned from TPs nice neighbor lady.

The decision to put it where they put it is illogical. I wrote a lengthy post many years ago about the master-planning issues they would encounter down the road by doing what they did. If I remember Spirit tell it from long ago, Iger demanded it go in DL simply because he wanted a legacy project in his name at that park.

Its illogical to you, but it makes sense to a lot of people. But I will agree that it would be better from a purist standpoint to have had it put elsewhere. But that just wasn't in the cards.

 

[mickEblu]

It makes more sense in Disneyland than it would have in DCA, if we are to respect dca's "theme" at all. See above. If it were going to DCA, it could work as a mirror image of itself, with a land fade from Grizzly Peak into Batuu with just a tad more of Endor (with the removal of paradise pier) or north of cars land with the complete removal of so much else. Everybody complaining about Disneyland getting a new land and 2 new E-tickets, a project that you already disagree with before seeing it, yet a project that represents the best that WDI is capable of in this moment. Would you rather we get a mediocre fantasyland "expansion" with 7 dwarfs mine train? I certainly would not. Preferring projects from a company that has proven itself not to care about much of anything over the one project they do care about doesn't seem like a safe bet. Galaxy's Edge is a far superior alternative to the likes of Toy Story Land or whatever else they've been up to lately. We could always have zero changes to disneyland, and go another decade complaining that we haven't had a new E-ticket since indiana jones and that tomorrowland is rotting in plain sight. The money pouring in from Galaxy's edge and the crowds will push them and enable them to flip the east side of the park and infill the northeast corner between fantasyland and tomorrowland.

I think aesthetically it will looks better in Disneyland than it would at DCA for a few reasons. First because they needed to respect the ROA. Second because of its location and how it’s kind of “hidden” / mysterious behind the berm/ ROA. Third because TDA/ WDI undoubtedly would give more effort/resources to this project BECAUSE it’s in Disneyland. However, if I had my way I still would of put it in DCA. DCA is a mish mash of themes anyway. Disneyland didn’t need Star Wars as much as DCA did ( and it doesn’t sound like Marvel is going to deliver). Also the infrastructure and wider walkways are better suited for the hoards of people.

I would have put Marvel in TL and Star Wars at DCA, either in Paradise Pier or the Simba Lot.

 

[TROR]

I want a good California themed park, dag nabbit.

 

[mickEblu]

Imagine Star Wars Land where Paradise Pier is with an enclosed themed bridge or tunnel to a Star Wars Hotel on the Simba Lot. Not my cup of tea but that would make the fans happy.