Reopening Disneyland

[PiratesMansion]

But what about the supposed bill from assembly people demanding that big parks be allowed in the orange tier? Has that bill died? Has Newsom vetoed it? Will Newsom be recalled before it ever happens? I would think his potentially facing recall would force his hand.

And why bother with the updates to Snow White or the Haunted Mansion if they're just going to remain closed until there is no need for social distancing?

Could someone like @Disney Irish care to weigh in?

Well eventually the place will reopen. And knowing that, why not do the updates when there's no one in the park and no hit to overall ride capacity?

If they were smart, they'd keep building Runaway Railway too.

 

[el_super]

But what about the supposed bill from assembly people demanding that big parks be allowed in the orange tier? Has that bill died?

It has to be approved by a committee before moving to the floor for a vote, and the soonest it can be scheduled to be reviewed by the committee is March 7th. These bills usually take *months* to evolve.

 

[Disney Irish]

But what about the supposed bill from assembly people demanding that big parks be allowed in the orange tier? Has that bill died? Has Newsom vetoed it? Will Newsom be recalled before it ever happens? I would think his potentially facing recall would force his hand.

And why bother with the updates to Snow White or the Haunted Mansion if they're just going to remain closed until there is no need for social distancing?

Could someone like @Disney Irish care to weigh in?

The bill is still in legislative process, it has not died. But its also not an immediate thing. It'll likely go up for a vote next month. What happens after that is anyone's guess right now. However my guess is that Newsom would agree to it and sign it.

As for updates you've been told before that Disney is going to continue with any ongoing projects such as the updates to Snow White and Haunted Mansion, both of which appear to be completed.

And finally on the recall, its still not guaranteed to make the ballot for the next election, long way to go for the signature verification process. And its still not guaranteed that it'll get enough votes for the recall to happen even if it does make the ballot. My guess is that Disneyland will be open long before any of that happens.

 

[TP2000]

Just for fun, let's review the current "Guidance" for reopening theme parks in California. Specifically, the Guidance for large parks like Disneyland that must wait until their county reaches the Yellow Tier to reopen.

Per the Guidance For Amusement Parks & Theme Parks issued by Sacramento on October 20th, 2020...

Yellow Tier: Operations are permitted for all amusement park operators with the following modifications:

• Capacity must be limited to 25% of total facility occupancy based on the design/operating capacity or fire department occupant limit, whichever is fewer.
• Capacity on all indoor dining and drinking establishments within the park must be limited to 25%.
• Operators must follow the modifications in this guidance and must be prepared for inspections by public health officials to ensure adequate implementation of all required modifications. Operators must address and implement any resulting findings and recommendations.

It's that last bullet point that opens a Pandora's Box full of rules and regulations and further "guidance" that will make the operation of a theme park like Disneyland incredibly difficult.

For instance, buried in the 20 page document is further guidance like this that must be obeyed...

• All queuing must be performed in outdoor settings only. No indoor queuing is allowed for any attraction or ride. For indoor attractions and rides, develop an outdoor queuing system prior to entry into the attraction’s indoor operation. Install impermeable barriers between lines with switchback queuing areas or close sections of switchback lines/queues to ensure sufficient physical distance between visitors.

This rule would seem to make it very difficult for roller coasters like Big Thunder, Space Mountain, Chase-A-Baby, etc.

• Discontinue use of a ride or attraction where use of face coverings presents a safety issue or high incidence of loss of face covering during operation.

What does this next bullet mean exactly I wonder? Do the lap bars need to be disinfected after every ride cycle as this wording implies? Every 5th ride cycle? Every hour? Does the train or cars or boats need to be pulled offline to do that? Or do you shut down the ride or loading station to do it? Yikes!

• Regularly clean and disinfect all surfaces frequently touched by guests or workers, including handrails, arm rests, restraints, lap bars, grips, seatbelts, over-the-shoulder harnesses, etc. Develop the frequency and approach to the cleaning and disinfecting process in accordance with the cleaning product instructions and the ride manufacturer’s directions and based on the type of surface being cleaned. Make sure virus kill times and drying times are considered prior to opening the attraction or loading guests for the next cycle. Make sure the ride is secured and follow appropriate hazardous energy control procedures (including safety “lock out, tag out” as needed) so workers can safely access the areas they need to clean.

Then there's this guidance. Imagine how this works on rides with large vehicles like Pirates, Jungle Cruise, Star Tours, Big Thunder, Mission Breakout, Indiana Jones, etc. Or even on rides with mid-sized vehicles like Millenium Falcon, Racers, Grizzly River, etc. where you'd only be able to put a couple or family of 3 alone in that vehicle and leave half the vehicle unused.

• Board household members in the same vehicle when possible. Passengers from different households must be at least six feet apart. Household members do not need to be seated six feet apart.
• Adjust seat-loading patterns, as needed, to comply with physical distancing requirements of at least six feet between groups from different households. Examples would include seating every other ride vehicle or vehicle row, further limiting capacity on a ride to allow for space between household groups, etc.

Those last two bullets would seem to mean that Omnimovers could only use every other vehicle, to prevent people from getting closer than six feet away during parts of the ride as the Omnimovers turn and pivot next to each other. Good thing the park capacity is only at 25%, but even then it seems to present real headaches and very low ride capacity almost everywhere.

You may still find the October 20th document here at this link. But get it while you can, because something tells me these rules from October won't be around a few months from now...

https://files.covid19.ca.gov/pdf/guidance-amusement-theme-parks--en.pdf

 

[mharrington]

The bill is still in legislative process, it has not died. But its also not an immediate thing. It'll likely go up for a vote next month. What happens after that is anyone's guess right now. However my guess is that Newsom would agree to it and sign it.

Well, if the bill's process is as lengthy as anyone thinks, then it's not going to be going to the governor's desk for a long, long time.

As for updates you've been told before that Disney is going to continue with any ongoing projects such as the updates to Snow White and Haunted Mansion, both of which appear to be completed.

But I was also told that indoor queues at smaller parks have been banned, so (speaking of the Haunted Mansion) I have no idea how this would affect indoor rides' queues. In fact, let's take a look at what @TP2000 just posted on the guidelines for reopening parks, which would make it extremely difficult (if not impossible) for Disneyland rides to reopen in a meaningful way.

Just for fun, let's review the current "Guidance" for reopening theme parks in California. Specifically, the Guidance for large parks like Disneyland that must wait until their county reaches the Yellow Tier to reopen.

Per the Guidance For Amusement Parks & Theme Parks issued by Sacramento on October 20th, 2020...

Yellow Tier: Operations are permitted for all amusement park operators with the following modifications:

• Capacity must be limited to 25% of total facility occupancy based on the design/operating capacity or fire department occupant limit, whichever is fewer.
• Capacity on all indoor dining and drinking establishments within the park must be limited to 25%.
• Operators must follow the modifications in this guidance and must be prepared for inspections by public health officials to ensure adequate implementation of all required modifications. Operators must address and implement any resulting findings and recommendations.

It's that last bullet point that opens a Pandora's Box full of rules and regulations and further "guidance" that will make the operation of a theme park like Disneyland incredibly difficult.

For instance, buried in the 20 page document is further guidance like this that must be obeyed...

• All queuing must be performed in outdoor settings only. No indoor queuing is allowed for any attraction or ride. For indoor attractions and rides, develop an outdoor queuing system prior to entry into the attraction’s indoor operation. Install impermeable barriers between lines with switchback queuing areas or close sections of switchback lines/queues to ensure sufficient physical distance between visitors.

This rule would seem to make it very difficult for roller coasters like Big Thunder, Space Mountain, Chase-A-Baby, etc.

• Discontinue use of a ride or attraction where use of face coverings presents a safety issue or high incidence of loss of face covering during operation.

What does this next bullet mean exactly I wonder? Do the lap bars need to be disinfected after every ride cycle as this wording implies? Every 5th ride cycle? Every hour? Does the train or cars or boats need to be pulled offline to do that? Or do you shut down the ride or loading station to do it? Yikes!

• Regularly clean and disinfect all surfaces frequently touched by guests or workers, including handrails, arm rests, restraints, lap bars, grips, seatbelts, over-the-shoulder harnesses, etc. Develop the frequency and approach to the cleaning and disinfecting process in accordance with the cleaning product instructions and the ride manufacturer’s directions and based on the type of surface being cleaned. Make sure virus kill times and drying times are considered prior to opening the attraction or loading guests for the next cycle. Make sure the ride is secured and follow appropriate hazardous energy control procedures (including safety “lock out, tag out” as needed) so workers can safely access the areas they need to clean.

Then there's this guidance. Imagine how this works on rides with large vehicles like Pirates, Jungle Cruise, Star Tours, Big Thunder, Mission Breakout, Indiana Jones, etc. Or even on rides with mid-sized vehicles like Millenium Falcon, Racers, Grizzly River, etc. where you'd only be able to put a couple or family of 3 alone in that vehicle and leave half the vehicle unused.

• Board household members in the same vehicle when possible. Passengers from different households must be at least six feet apart. Household members do not need to be seated six feet apart.
• Adjust seat-loading patterns, as needed, to comply with physical distancing requirements of at least six feet between groups from different households. Examples would include seating every other ride vehicle or vehicle row, further limiting capacity on a ride to allow for space between household groups, etc.

Those last two bullets would seem to mean that Omnimovers could only use every other vehicle, to prevent people from getting closer than six feet away during parts of the ride as the Omnimovers turn and pivot next to each other. Good thing the park capacity is only at 25%, but even then it seems to present real headaches and very low ride capacity almost everywhere.

You may still find the October 20th document here at this link. But get it while you can, because something tells me these rules from October won't be around a few months from now...

https://files.covid19.ca.gov/pdf/guidance-amusement-theme-parks--en.pdf

So apparently, based on the guidelines from October (which may or may not be modified if ("if", mind you) Newsom does allow parks to reopen in the yellow tier), it would be extremely difficult for Disneyland to operate in any meaningful way. Disinfecting the rides is annoying and inconvenient, but what bothers me most is how they can do attractions with indoor queues... without actually using said indoor queues? How would that even work? Disney Irish, do you think you can explain? Because I'm quite confused, given what I read. And apparently so is TP2000.

 

[Disney Irish]

Well, if the bill's process is as lengthy as anyone thinks, then it's not going to be going to the governor's desk for a long, long time.

Which again is why most think Disneyland will be open before that happens, making it moot. However even if it happens, in late spring, I don't see why Newsom wouldn't approve it and sign it.

But I was also told that indoor queues at smaller parks have been banned, so (speaking of the Haunted Mansion) I have no idea how this would affect indoor rides' queues. In fact, let's take a look at what @TP2000 just posted on the guidelines for reopening parks, which would make it extremely difficult (if not impossible) for Disneyland rides to reopen in a meaningful way.

So apparently, based on the guidelines from October (which may or may not be modified if ("if", mind you) Newsom does allow parks to reopen in the yellow tier), it would be extremely difficult for Disneyland to operate in any meaningful way. Disinfecting the rides is annoying and inconvenient, but what bothers me most is how they can do attractions with indoor queues... without actually using said indoor queues? How would that even work? Disney Irish, do you think you can explain? Because I'm quite confused, given what I read. And apparently so is TP2000.

If things remain the same as they are now, meaning without any changes to the current guidelines, and there is a limitation on indoor queues then they would use virtual queuing for attractions. Just like they did for Galaxies Edge/Rise of the Resistance in 2019. They have the system already in place, just have to turn it on for all attractions.

 

[mharrington]

If things remain the same as they are now, meaning without any changes to the current guidelines, and there is a limitation on indoor queues then they would use virtual queuing for attractions. Just like they did for Galaxies Edge/Rise of the Resistance in 2019. They have the system already in place, just have to turn it on for all attractions.

If Newsom did allow big parks to reopen in the orange tier, I have a feeling that would not be the only change to the guidelines. But regardless, it would be very difficult to operate indoor attractions. How would it work with, say, the Haunted Mansion, where you go down an elevator? At WDW, the stretching room scene is turned off. It's not a problem there, as the room never goes down (the roof instead rising), but the floor in Disneyland goes down, so right there is a difficulty in reopening the ride just based on that alone.

 

[Disney Irish]

If Newsom did allow big parks to reopen in the orange tier, I have a feeling that would not be the only change to the guidelines. But regardless, it would be very difficult to operate indoor attractions. How would it work with, say, the Haunted Mansion, where you go down an elevator? At WDW, the stretching room scene is turned off. It's not a problem there, as the room never goes down (the roof instead rising), but the floor in Disneyland goes down, so right there is a difficulty in reopening the ride just based on that alone.

It’s unknown how they will run certain attractions at this point, but I’m sure they have a plan for most major attractions. For example with Haunted Mansion I believe the path to the right where the pet cemetery is can be used to bypass the stretching room. So yes there is a way to have even Haunted Mansion running. The one major exception will be the Subs, but I don't think that is a major loss.

 

[mharrington]

It’s unknown how they will run certain attractions at this point, but I’m sure they have a plan for most major attractions. For example with Haunted Mansion I believe the path to the right where the pet cemetery is can be used to bypass the stretching room. So yes there is a way to have even Haunted Mansion running. The one major exception will be the Subs, but I don't think that is a major loss.

I really don't care about the subs, but what about walkthroughs, like, say, Mickey and Minnie's houses?

 

[Disney Irish]

I really don't care about the subs, but what about walkthroughs, like, say, Mickey and Minnie's houses?

M&G locations will likely be closed or limited just like at WDW.

 

[TP2000]

If Newsom did allow big parks to reopen in the orange tier, I have a feeling that would not be the only change to the guidelines. But regardless, it would be very difficult to operate indoor attractions. How would it work with, say, the Haunted Mansion, where you go down an elevator? At WDW, the stretching room scene is turned off. It's not a problem there, as the room never goes down (the roof instead rising), but the floor in Disneyland goes down, so right there is a difficulty in reopening the ride just based on that alone.

It's confusing and very murky, even for me after reading that full Sacramento document again today.

Now just imagine how confusing and murky it must be for business owners trying to reopen their properties?

As written, the Guidance from Sacramento simply doesn't allow a ride like Haunted Mansion to operate. Or at least, operate with more than two or three "households" per elevator designed to hold 75 people. You'd need to space each household in the stretching room at least six feet apart from each other. Maybe four households maximum in there, 12 or 16 people, instead of 75 closely packed bodies?

No wonder WDW just said "screw it!" and pried open both sets of stretching room doors and put some ropes up and called that opening show scene part of the queue. They threw in the towel in Florida, and they don't even have Governor Newsom to deal with. (Of course, this is basically how sloppy and lazy WDW managers often ran their Haunted Mansion ride pre-Covid, but that's another topic for a different snarky thread)

They didn't even bother to extend the stretching room the whole way, cutting off the gags in the entire portraits! FLORIDA!

Obviously for Disneyland with real elevators taking you to a tunnel below grade, this isn't going to be an option. Which makes the official Guidance from Sacramento seem to state that running a ride like Haunted Mansion, or even Star Wars: Rise Before Dawn, is not going to be allowed when the park reopens in the Yellow Tier.

 

[mharrington]

M&G locations will likely be closed or limited just like at WDW.

But for how long, though? Would they be closed for good?

Also, that statement from TP2000 makes it seem like that the reopening guidelines would never allow the Haunted Mansion to reopen at all in the yellow tier, which he believes is how it will probably remain when the parks do reopen. It's also really sad that they had to run a literal line through the stretching room, ruining a great effect.

I had also heard that Disney will no longer invest as heavily in their parks (I believe they will focus on the media side of things (i.e., Disney Plus)). Frankly, I'm wondering if they will actually invest in their parks at all.

 

[TP2000]

But for how long, though? Would they be closed for good?

Also, that statement from TP2000 makes it seem like that the reopening guidelines would never allow the Haunted Mansion to reopen at all in the yellow tier, which he believes is how it will probably remain when the parks do reopen. It's also really sad that they had to run a literal line through the stretching room, ruining a great effect.

I had also heard that Disney will no longer invest as heavily in their parks (I believe they will focus on the media side of things (i.e., Disney Plus)). Frankly, I'm wondering if they will actually invest in their parks at all.

This is my major concern about the Four Tiers in the Blueprint For A Safer Economy. There is no Green Tier.

And apparently Governor Newsom designed it that way on purpose. Unless he rescinds the Blueprint Guidance entirely, there's no ability for Disneyland to go past 25% capacity, no indoor queues, no entertainment, etc., etc.

There's no green tier because, as Governor Newsom said, "We don't believe that there is a green light, which says go back to the way things were or back to the pre-pandemic mindset." -August 28th, 2020

California Has A New 4-Tier, Color-Coded Reopening Framework

It goes into effect Monday, Aug. 31. Whatever tier your county is in, it will have to stay there for at least three weeks.

laist.com

 

[Disney Irish]

This is my major concern about the Four Tiers in the Blueprint For A Safer Economy. There is no Green Tier.

And apparently Governor Newsom designed it that way on purpose. Unless he rescinds the Blueprint Guidance entirely, there's no ability for Disneyland to go past 25% capacity, no indoor queues, no entertainment, etc., etc.

There's no green tier because, as Governor Newsom said, "We don't believe that there is a green light, which says go back to the way things were or back to the pre-pandemic mindset." -August 28th, 2020

California Has A New 4-Tier, Color-Coded Reopening Framework

It goes into effect Monday, Aug. 31. Whatever tier your county is in, it will have to stay there for at least three weeks.

laist.com

You've rolled out that same quote for the last 6 months and it was explained to you what it meant every time. You just choose to ignore it.

So lets get this out of the way. I 100% believe the "Blueprint for a Safer Economy" is going to be replaced. Newsom/Ghaly indicated as such many times. The color tier was only suppose to get California through the winter cold/flu season, that is coming to an end. I

The "Green Light" you keep touting as never going to exist, was always going to be when California gets to herd immunity through vaccinations. That too was explained by Newsom/Ghaly. So that is when everything goes back to normal and everything is opened at 100% capacity.

I fully expect there to be a "Path to Normality" guideline to be released in the spring, which will include restrictions until California hits at lesat 75% vaccinated. And I fully believe it'll include a higher capacity for theme parks.

 

[Disney Irish]

But for how long, though? Would they be closed for good?

Until California hits herd immunity of 75% vaccinated. And no I don't expect it to be closed for good.

Also, that statement from TP2000 makes it seem like that the reopening guidelines would never allow the Haunted Mansion to reopen at all in the yellow tier, which he believes is how it will probably remain when the parks do reopen. It's also really sad that they had to run a literal line through the stretching room, ruining a great effect.

I have a different opinion, I think reopening of Haunted Mansion is possible with some changes to allow for social distancing. Will it be 100% the same experience as during normal times, no. But this isn't normal times. No theme park, not even WDW, is running everything the same as pre-COVID.

I had also heard that Disney will no longer invest as heavily in their parks (I believe they will focus on the media side of things (i.e., Disney Plus)). Frankly, I'm wondering if they will actually invest in their parks at all.

Yes Disney will slowing major investing in the Parks for now. But that isn't forever. They will invest in the Parks again in the future think 2023 and beyond.

 

[TP2000]

You've rolled out that same quote for the last 6 months and it was explained to you what it meant every time. You just choose to ignore it.

So lets get this out of the way. I 100% believe the "Blueprint for a Safer Economy" is going to be replaced. Newsom/Ghaly indicated as such many times. The color tier was only suppose to get California through the winter cold/flu season, that is coming to an end.

Where and when was that ever explained by anyone? I've never seen any mention of that concept anywhere, by anyone.

By the way, the winter flu season was non-existent. Flu was almost untraceable nationwide this winter. Because we are all masked up and slathered in hand sanitizer. Normally the Flu kills hundreds of young American school children every year, but not this year. America's school children are safe at home not learning much of anything on Zoom.

US flu hospitalizations at historic low amid COVID-19 school lockdowns

Just 165 flu-related hospitalizations were recorded between Oct. 1 and Feb. 6, according to recent information from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

nypost.com

The "Green Light" you keep touting as never going to exist, was always going to be when California gets to herd immunity through vaccinations. That too was explained by Newsom/Ghaly. So that is when everything goes back to normal and everything is opened at 100% capacity.

Where was that explained? Governor Newsom was specifically asked about a Green Tier by the media, and that's where that quote came from in August, 2020. No further follow up has been reported on, and no further clarification has been offered by Governor Newsom.

You may have your own opinion on it, and how this all ends. As do I. But our elected officials in Sacramento have never said anything publicly that even remotely hints at such a concept.

I fully expect there to be a "Path to Normality" guideline to be released in the spring, which will include restrictions until California hits at lesat 75% vaccinated. And I fully believe it'll include a higher capacity for theme parks.

A "Path To Normality". That actually has a catchy ring to it.

I still like Trifecta Of Sin, but Path To Normality probably plays better in polling.

Regardless, I fully expect the Science & Data that led to the Blueprint For A Safer Economy to all be thrown out with the bathwater by Easter. We'll have entirely new rules, new goalposts, new slogans and catchphrases to use. The political winds now blowing in Sacramento absolutely demand it.

 

[Disney Irish]

Where and when was that ever explained by anyone? I've never seen any mention of that concept anywhere, by anyone.



Where was that explained? Governor Newsom was specifically asked about a Green Tier by the media, and that's where that quote came from in August, 2020. No further follow up has been reported on, and no further clarification has been offered by Governor Newsom.

You may have your own opinion on it, and how this all ends. As do I. But our elected officials in Sacramento have never said anything publicly that even remotely hints at such a concept.

It was discussed several times during Ghaly's briefings in the fall that these guidelines were meant to get California through the tough winter months of the cold/flu season.

And then hinted at when Newsom started talking about the vaccination program in December.

I don't have specific quotes on hand, maybe if I'm in the mood I'll look it up.

A "Path To Normality". That actually has a catchy ring to it.

I still like Trifecta Of Sin, but Path To Normality probably plays better in polling.

Regardless, I fully expect the Science & Data that led to the Blueprint For A Safer Economy to all be thrown out with the bathwater by Easter. We'll have entirely new rules, new goalposts, new slogans and catchphrases to use. The political winds now blowing in Sacramento absolutely demand it.

I know you don't believe it but there actually is science and data backing these guidelines and decisions. Yes things are changed for political reasons, that is called governing. But the premise behind all these guidelines have always been based on the dynamically changing data of the pandemic.

 

[TP2000]

It was discussed several times during Ghaly's briefings in the fall that these guidelines were meant to get California through the tough winter months of the cold/flu season.

And then hinted at when Newsom started talking about the vaccination program in December.

I don't have specific quotes on hand, maybe if I'm in the mood I'll look it up.

I wish you would. If someone is "hinting" at something, it might be fun to see how they frame those hints.

Because God knows, what a scared public needs in a pandemic is politicians that hint at things instead of just clear communication.

I know you don't believe it but there actually is science and data backing these guidelines and decisions. Yes things are changed for political reasons, that is called governing. But the premise behind all these guidelines have always been based on the dynamically changing data of the pandemic.

No, no, I actually do understand the Science & Data behind the Blueprint. I said it tonight in another thread somewhere, but to his credit Governor Newsom laid out some very clear metrics on tracking the Four Tiers. It's clearly explained and easy to track.

The only murky thing in the Four Tiers is the Equity Metric, because that's graded on a curve in a secret backroom in Sacramento somewhere and no one really knows how it works. But the other stuff in the Four Tiers is very clear and easily understandable, all on a 7 day rolling average, from our local county health authority.

Yellow Tier = Less Than 1 Daily New Case Per 100,000 Residents & Less Than 2% Positive Tests

Plus the Equity Metric Mystery Data, a number crafted in secret in a backroom somewhere in Sacramento.

But obviously the Blueprint For A Safer Economy rules can't last much longer in 2021. They are far too restrictive. They will be tossed out and replaced with something new by Easter. I'd bet two churros on it.

 

[mlayton144]

Okay, but what kind of an idiot do you have to be to blame some random person of any Asian descent (and that's about 3 or 4 Billion people) for the flu that started in Wuhan, China?

I mean honestly, those types of idiots are going to be bigots regardless of what you call a virus.

I have a strong hunch those people will still discriminate against Asians in 2021 just as they did in 2019.

The same group of idiots that stormed the capitol last month , including the #1 idiot that provoked the whole thing

 

[mharrington]

A lot of back and forth between DI and TP; it's hard to figure out whether to be hopeful for a reopening this summer, especially since we haven't even heard any hints of such. For every bit of hope, it feels like it's offset by something negative, if legitimate. I hope the plan to bring the orange-tiered opening does make it to Newsom sooner than later and he does sign it.