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News Remy's Ratatouille Adventure coming to Epcot

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Can you give an explanation for a layman like myself? Thanks
Color choices. This is really the blue facade. The problem is not so much that there ar enor bright buildings in Paris but that it is a highlight. The rest of the expansion is mostly muted colors and then this one facade pops and stands out. But there is nothing there. It is back of house spaces which is why it has the lower single floor space and the existing doors at the ground and second floor. Yes, real cities do have uninteresting builds painted loudly but in a designed experience design choices should communicate to the visitor and people will find that this building that stands out is nothing, not even a shop, just walls.

Siting is how everything is placed and positioned. You have to walk out of and around the back of the existing pavilion, so it is disconnected from the main area. This decision to place the ride around back was driven in part by the desire to clean up the view for the Skyliner but you still see an abrupt end to the “theming”. As was recently discussed something as simple as angling the building differently would have helped this. On the other side you have the issue of how the showbuilding impacts the Morocco Pavilion. Yes, trees have been planted but you’ll now have trees right behind the minaret messing with its forced perspective.

Massing is the size and heft of things and how they relate to each other. It is everything from the size of buildings to the size of elements on buildings themselves. Imagine if one side of Main Street, USA was half as tall, it’d be weird. It’s sort of like a McMansion being plopped down amongst older, much smaller houses. That McMansion might also have something like columns just look to small or fake stone siding above fake wood siding, but if you were really using wood and stone you’d probably put the lighter wood on top of the heavier stone. On the one side you have the very tall back of the theater and the new showbuilding but they’re paired with the very small restrooms, crêperie and canopies. Another example is the International Gateway Skyliner station with this massive roof that is held up by these very slender columns, the proportions just don’t quite match.

Forced perspective I assume you know. In order for it to be effective it needs to be consistent. In the expansion it is all of the place with there being different, and even contradictory, perspectives attempting to be forced all at the same time and right next to each other. The existing yellow facades (which was already bad) was meant to make the theater look smaller and be viewed from a distance. Now it is being viewed up close and its ”floors” were carried over to the blue facade resulting in the offset door. But then as you keep going towards the attraction the perspective shifts to the rat view inspired design from Paris where the attempt is to make the buildings look bigger even on the ground level. This means you have really tall windows of one floor right next to very short windows of a similar floor. On top of this across the street you have the single story crêperie trying to look like a two story building, but it’s across from the yellow and blue facades that are trying to pass off a similar height as just one story.

Scale is how the size of things relate to the human form. Think Main Street, USA at Disneyland versus Magic Kingdom. Their similar lengths but one is described as more charming while the other is more grand. It is also very closely tied to massing and how we understand scale is used to force perspectives. Ornament in particular is all sorts of weird sizes. One example that has been pointed out is the canopies that are based on the massive, multi block canopies of the old Les Halles market shrunk down into this diminutive little thing that just seems a little odd.

Tectonics is the expression of structure and how materials are used and interact with each other. Obviously in a theme park most things are faked, brick and stone is imitated with stucco and foam. In order to successfully imitate materials how they are used has to be understood and itself imitated. The crêperie in particular has a lot of weird things going on and overlapping of elements where the different “buildings” are supposed to be coming together. The large ornament such as the huge cornice on the yellow facade and also pretty big cornice on the restrooms would fall into this as their size is only really possible because they are made of modern materials.

Form is the shape of things and really everything. It influences and is influenced by everything else being mentioned.

Space is the area in which we inhabit. Indoors and outdoors. How space is shaped or not shaped gives us a different feeling and experience. Walking down a shopping street is different than walking along a strip mall. A street in a small town is different than a street in a big city. A plaza or square feels different than a street or park. What type of space is the expansion area? Is it a river walk? Is it an old medieval street off to the side with small little buildings? Or is it a boulevard with large buildings? Is it a series of courtyards?

Order is how much everything works together. Everything from communicating the story to hierarchy of what is most important. As I’ve outlined you have a lot of conflicting aspects of design. Is this a street or a courtyard? Is it small and charming or large and grand? Are we supposed to have a bit of a rat’s view of the world where things all feel bigger? This lack of consistency happens in a city but the hallmark of a Disney park is how everything works together, you don’t have that messiness and contradictions, even the messes are intentional and designed for a purposes. The concept of a weenie would fall here, something you see that a land is built around that draws you into the space. Think of walking though this expansion and how odd it’ll be that you walk through this elaborate, really rather well done Art Nouveau marquee and are greeted with a barren walkway heading right towards a backstage gate. Then when you get down near the gate you still cannot see the new ride because the entrance and entrance sign are obscured by a canopy. Think of the main pavilion and how the entrance to the theater is right there front and center, not off to the side and around the back.
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
giphy.gif
 
Color choices. This is really the blue facade. The problem is not so much that there ar enor bright buildings in Paris but that it is a highlight. The rest of the expansion is mostly muted colors and then this one facade pops and stands out. But there is nothing there. It is back of house spaces which is why it has the lower single floor space and the existing doors at the ground and second floor. Yes, real cities do have uninteresting builds painted loudly but in a designed experience design choices should communicate to the visitor and people will find that this building that stands out is nothing, not even a shop, just walls.

Siting is how everything is placed and positioned. You have to walk out of and around the back of the existing pavilion, so it is disconnected from the main area. This decision to place the ride around back was driven in part by the desire to clean up the view for the Skyliner but you still see an abrupt end to the “theming”. As was recently discussed something as simple as angling the building differently would have helped this. On the other side you have the issue of how the showbuilding impacts the Morocco Pavilion. Yes, trees have been planted but you’ll now have trees right behind the minaret messing with its forced perspective.

Massing is the size and heft of things and how they relate to each other. It is everything from the size of buildings to the size of elements on buildings themselves. Imagine if one side of Main Street, USA was half as tall, it’d be weird. It’s sort of like a McMansion being plopped down amongst older, much smaller houses. That McMansion might also have something like columns just look to small or fake stone siding above fake wood siding, but if you were really using wood and stone you’d probably put the lighter wood on top of the heavier stone. On the one side you have the very tall back of the theater and the new showbuilding but they’re paired with the very small restrooms, crêperie and canopies. Another example is the International Gateway Skyliner station with this massive roof that is held up by these very slender columns, the proportions just don’t quite match.

Forced perspective I assume you know. In order for it to be effective it needs to be consistent. In the expansion it is all of the place with there being different, and even contradictory, perspectives attempting to be forced all at the same time and right next to each other. The existing yellow facades (which was already bad) was meant to make the theater look smaller and be viewed from a distance. Now it is being viewed up close and its ”floors” were carried over to the blue facade resulting in the offset door. But then as you keep going towards the attraction the perspective shifts to the rat view inspired design from Paris where the attempt is to make the buildings look bigger even on the ground level. This means you have really tall windows of one floor right next to very short windows of a similar floor. On top of this across the street you have the single story crêperie trying to look like a two story building, but it’s across from the yellow and blue facades that are trying to pass off a similar height as just one story.

Scale is how the size of things relate to the human form. Think Main Street, USA at Disneyland versus Magic Kingdom. Their similar lengths but one is described as more charming while the other is more grand. It is also very closely tied to massing and how we understand scale is used to force perspectives. Ornament in particular is all sorts of weird sizes. One example that has been pointed out is the canopies that are based on the massive, multi block canopies of the old Les Halles market shrunk down into this diminutive little thing that just seems a little odd.

Tectonics is the expression of structure and how materials are used and interact with each other. Obviously in a theme park most things are faked, brick and stone is imitated with stucco and foam. In order to successfully imitate materials how they are used has to be understood and itself imitated. The crêperie in particular has a lot of weird things going on and overlapping of elements where the different “buildings” are supposed to be coming together. The large ornament such as the huge cornice on the yellow facade and also pretty big cornice on the restrooms would fall into this as their size is only really possible because they are made of modern materials.

Form is the shape of things and really everything. It influences and is influenced by everything else being mentioned.

Space is the area in which we inhabit. Indoors and outdoors. How space is shaped or not shaped gives us a different feeling and experience. Walking down a shopping street is different than walking along a strip mall. A street in a small town is different than a street in a big city. A plaza or square feels different than a street or park. What type of space is the expansion area? Is it a river walk? Is it an old medieval street off to the side with small little buildings? Or is it a boulevard with large buildings? Is it a series of courtyards?

Order is how much everything works together. Everything from communicating the story to hierarchy of what is most important. As I’ve outlined you have a lot of conflicting aspects of design. Is this a street or a courtyard? Is it small and charming or large and grand? Are we supposed to have a bit of a rat’s view of the world where things all feel bigger? This lack of consistency happens in a city but the hallmark of a Disney park is how everything works together, you don’t have that messiness and contradictions, even the messes are intentional and designed for a purposes. The concept of a weenie would fall here, something you see that a land is built around that draws you into the space. Think of walking though this expansion and how odd it’ll be that you walk through this elaborate, really rather well done Art Nouveau marquee and are greeted with a barren walkway heading right towards a backstage gate. Then when you get down near the gate you still cannot see the new ride because the entrance and entrance sign are obscured by a canopy. Think of the main pavilion and how the entrance to the theater is right there front and center, not off to the side and around the back.
What is your going rate and can they hire you to fix it?

But in all seriousness thanks for the thorough analysis, I learned many new things!
 

Nemo_mickey

New Member
”Soon” like, “your wife is having contractions” but not ”soon” like “your wife’s water broke and I can’t believe you don’t know that.”

Its a good time to start painting the nursery with rats and baguettes.
Great ? I’m there March 18-11. Just 4 days. I hope I don’t miss remy by one day:)
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
Look at what we are going through with Rise Of The Resistance.... If they begin that type reservation system for Remy, I have absolutely no faith that I will be able to get on it for a year or two.
 

Nemo_mickey

New Member
Let’s say , theoretically, if someone’s vacation ended on 11th. Would there be a possibility of a soft opening for remy March 10-11????? Theoretically would they have a chance in Hell?
 

Nemo_mickey

New Member
Color choices. This is really the blue facade. The problem is not so much that there ar enor bright buildings in Paris but that it is a highlight. The rest of the expansion is mostly muted colors and then this one facade pops and stands out. But there is nothing there. It is back of house spaces which is why it has the lower single floor space and the existing doors at the ground and second floor. Yes, real cities do have uninteresting builds painted loudly but in a designed experience design choices should communicate to the visitor and people will find that this building that stands out is nothing, not even a shop, just walls.

Siting is how everything is placed and positioned. You have to walk out of and around the back of the existing pavilion, so it is disconnected from the main area. This decision to place the ride around back was driven in part by the desire to clean up the view for the Skyliner but you still see an abrupt end to the “theming”. As was recently discussed something as simple as angling the building differently would have helped this. On the other side you have the issue of how the showbuilding impacts the Morocco Pavilion. Yes, trees have been planted but you’ll now have trees right behind the minaret messing with its forced perspective.

Massing is the size and heft of things and how they relate to each other. It is everything from the size of buildings to the size of elements on buildings themselves. Imagine if one side of Main Street, USA was half as tall, it’d be weird. It’s sort of like a McMansion being plopped down amongst older, much smaller houses. That McMansion might also have something like columns just look to small or fake stone siding above fake wood siding, but if you were really using wood and stone you’d probably put the lighter wood on top of the heavier stone. On the one side you have the very tall back of the theater and the new showbuilding but they’re paired with the very small restrooms, crêperie and canopies. Another example is the International Gateway Skyliner station with this massive roof that is held up by these very slender columns, the proportions just don’t quite match.

Forced perspective I assume you know. In order for it to be effective it needs to be consistent. In the expansion it is all of the place with there being different, and even contradictory, perspectives attempting to be forced all at the same time and right next to each other. The existing yellow facades (which was already bad) was meant to make the theater look smaller and be viewed from a distance. Now it is being viewed up close and its ”floors” were carried over to the blue facade resulting in the offset door. But then as you keep going towards the attraction the perspective shifts to the rat view inspired design from Paris where the attempt is to make the buildings look bigger even on the ground level. This means you have really tall windows of one floor right next to very short windows of a similar floor. On top of this across the street you have the single story crêperie trying to look like a two story building, but it’s across from the yellow and blue facades that are trying to pass off a similar height as just one story.

Scale is how the size of things relate to the human form. Think Main Street, USA at Disneyland versus Magic Kingdom. Their similar lengths but one is described as more charming while the other is more grand. It is also very closely tied to massing and how we understand scale is used to force perspectives. Ornament in particular is all sorts of weird sizes. One example that has been pointed out is the canopies that are based on the massive, multi block canopies of the old Les Halles market shrunk down into this diminutive little thing that just seems a little odd.

Tectonics is the expression of structure and how materials are used and interact with each other. Obviously in a theme park most things are faked, brick and stone is imitated with stucco and foam. In order to successfully imitate materials how they are used has to be understood and itself imitated. The crêperie in particular has a lot of weird things going on and overlapping of elements where the different “buildings” are supposed to be coming together. The large ornament such as the huge cornice on the yellow facade and also pretty big cornice on the restrooms would fall into this as their size is only really possible because they are made of modern materials.

Form is the shape of things and really everything. It influences and is influenced by everything else being mentioned.

Space is the area in which we inhabit. Indoors and outdoors. How space is shaped or not shaped gives us a different feeling and experience. Walking down a shopping street is different than walking along a strip mall. A street in a small town is different than a street in a big city. A plaza or square feels different than a street or park. What type of space is the expansion area? Is it a river walk? Is it an old medieval street off to the side with small little buildings? Or is it a boulevard with large buildings? Is it a series of courtyards?

Order is how much everything works together. Everything from communicating the story to hierarchy of what is most important. As I’ve outlined you have a lot of conflicting aspects of design. Is this a street or a courtyard? Is it small and charming or large and grand? Are we supposed to have a bit of a rat’s view of the world where things all feel bigger? This lack of consistency happens in a city but the hallmark of a Disney park is how everything works together, you don’t have that messiness and contradictions, even the messes are intentional and designed for a purposes. The concept of a weenie would fall here, something you see that a land is built around that draws you into the space. Think of walking though this expansion and how odd it’ll be that you walk through this elaborate, really rather well done Art Nouveau marquee and are greeted with a barren walkway heading right towards a backstage gate. Then when you get down near the gate you still cannot see the new ride because the entrance and entrance sign are obscured by a canopy. Think of the main pavilion and how the entrance to the theater is right there front and center, not off to the side and around the back.
Wow, u should teach a college course in Disney!!!!
 

MansionButler84

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
That’s not a good analogy. I mean that just means we have 4 -24 hours to get to the hospital France pavilion rather than one hour.

So “soon” as in February or “soon” as in Spring Break? Hypothetically. Asking for a friend. 😁
Some women have contractions for a bit...
Look at what we are going through with Rise Of The Resistance.... If they begin that type reservation system for Remy, I have absolutely no faith that I will be able to get on it for a year or two.
It won’t be like that. RotR has several ride systems in one. This will be more like MMRR, which runs just fine.
 

EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
Color choices. This is really the blue facade. The problem is not so much that there ar enor bright buildings in Paris but that it is a highlight. The rest of the expansion is mostly muted colors and then this one facade pops and stands out. But there is nothing there. It is back of house spaces which is why it has the lower single floor space and the existing doors at the ground and second floor. Yes, real cities do have uninteresting builds painted loudly but in a designed experience design choices should communicate to the visitor and people will find that this building that stands out is nothing, not even a shop, just walls.

Siting is how everything is placed and positioned. You have to walk out of and around the back of the existing pavilion, so it is disconnected from the main area. This decision to place the ride around back was driven in part by the desire to clean up the view for the Skyliner but you still see an abrupt end to the “theming”. As was recently discussed something as simple as angling the building differently would have helped this. On the other side you have the issue of how the showbuilding impacts the Morocco Pavilion. Yes, trees have been planted but you’ll now have trees right behind the minaret messing with its forced perspective.

Massing is the size and heft of things and how they relate to each other. It is everything from the size of buildings to the size of elements on buildings themselves. Imagine if one side of Main Street, USA was half as tall, it’d be weird. It’s sort of like a McMansion being plopped down amongst older, much smaller houses. That McMansion might also have something like columns just look to small or fake stone siding above fake wood siding, but if you were really using wood and stone you’d probably put the lighter wood on top of the heavier stone. On the one side you have the very tall back of the theater and the new showbuilding but they’re paired with the very small restrooms, crêperie and canopies. Another example is the International Gateway Skyliner station with this massive roof that is held up by these very slender columns, the proportions just don’t quite match.

Forced perspective I assume you know. In order for it to be effective it needs to be consistent. In the expansion it is all of the place with there being different, and even contradictory, perspectives attempting to be forced all at the same time and right next to each other. The existing yellow facades (which was already bad) was meant to make the theater look smaller and be viewed from a distance. Now it is being viewed up close and its ”floors” were carried over to the blue facade resulting in the offset door. But then as you keep going towards the attraction the perspective shifts to the rat view inspired design from Paris where the attempt is to make the buildings look bigger even on the ground level. This means you have really tall windows of one floor right next to very short windows of a similar floor. On top of this across the street you have the single story crêperie trying to look like a two story building, but it’s across from the yellow and blue facades that are trying to pass off a similar height as just one story.

Scale is how the size of things relate to the human form. Think Main Street, USA at Disneyland versus Magic Kingdom. Their similar lengths but one is described as more charming while the other is more grand. It is also very closely tied to massing and how we understand scale is used to force perspectives. Ornament in particular is all sorts of weird sizes. One example that has been pointed out is the canopies that are based on the massive, multi block canopies of the old Les Halles market shrunk down into this diminutive little thing that just seems a little odd.

Tectonics is the expression of structure and how materials are used and interact with each other. Obviously in a theme park most things are faked, brick and stone is imitated with stucco and foam. In order to successfully imitate materials how they are used has to be understood and itself imitated. The crêperie in particular has a lot of weird things going on and overlapping of elements where the different “buildings” are supposed to be coming together. The large ornament such as the huge cornice on the yellow facade and also pretty big cornice on the restrooms would fall into this as their size is only really possible because they are made of modern materials.

Form is the shape of things and really everything. It influences and is influenced by everything else being mentioned.

Space is the area in which we inhabit. Indoors and outdoors. How space is shaped or not shaped gives us a different feeling and experience. Walking down a shopping street is different than walking along a strip mall. A street in a small town is different than a street in a big city. A plaza or square feels different than a street or park. What type of space is the expansion area? Is it a river walk? Is it an old medieval street off to the side with small little buildings? Or is it a boulevard with large buildings? Is it a series of courtyards?

Order is how much everything works together. Everything from communicating the story to hierarchy of what is most important. As I’ve outlined you have a lot of conflicting aspects of design. Is this a street or a courtyard? Is it small and charming or large and grand? Are we supposed to have a bit of a rat’s view of the world where things all feel bigger? This lack of consistency happens in a city but the hallmark of a Disney park is how everything works together, you don’t have that messiness and contradictions, even the messes are intentional and designed for a purposes. The concept of a weenie would fall here, something you see that a land is built around that draws you into the space. Think of walking though this expansion and how odd it’ll be that you walk through this elaborate, really rather well done Art Nouveau marquee and are greeted with a barren walkway heading right towards a backstage gate. Then when you get down near the gate you still cannot see the new ride because the entrance and entrance sign are obscured by a canopy. Think of the main pavilion and how the entrance to the theater is right there front and center, not off to the side and around the back.
Thank you! Great post
 

FerretAfros

Well-Known Member
Wow, u should teach a college course in Disney!!!!
While that post definitely has a lot of great information that's really helpful in explaining design choices to a general audience, it's really isn't advanced architectural theory. It's literally the kind of stuff that is taught in Architecture 101 at schools across the country.

It's why schools tend to focus their instruction on Modern architecture, even though most people don't love the way it looks: everything is stripped to the bones, so it's easier to understand the basics of how elements relate to one another and why they're sized the way they are. It's the foundation that everything else is based on. As Mies van der Rohe is often quoted as saying, "form follows function."

Analyzing how Disney applies these principles definitely make for an interesting discussion, but it would likely be more appropriate for a Disney Institute-style seminar than a real college course.

And that's what's just so frustrating about all of this. It's not that they're messing up on obscure details or very specific elements that are unique to their operations, it's that the people they're trusting with 9-figure budgets can't even seem to get the most basic elements right. Which only begs the questions of how many other things are also being messed up further along in the design process.

It's not advanced stuff. It's literally Architecture 101, and they're blowing it on a colossal scale.
 

Nemo_mickey

New Member
While that post definitely has a lot of great information that's really helpful in explaining design choices to a general audience, it's really isn't advanced architectural theory. It's literally the kind of stuff that is taught in Architecture 101 at schools across the country.

It's why schools tend to focus their instruction on Modern architecture, even though most people don't love the way it looks: everything is stripped to the bones, so it's easier to understand the basics of how elements relate to one another and why they're sized the way they are. It's the foundation that everything else is based on. As Mies van der Rohe is often quoted as saying, "form follows function."

Analyzing how Disney applies these principles definitely make for an interesting discussion, but it would likely be more appropriate for a Disney Institute-style seminar than a real college course.

And that's what's just so frustrating about all of this. It's not that they're messing up on obscure details or very specific elements that are unique to their operations, it's that the people they're trusting with 9-figure budgets can't even seem to get the most basic elements right. Which only begs the questions of how many other things are also being messed up further along in the design process.

It's not advanced stuff. It's literally Architecture 101, and they're blowing it on a colossal scale.
I’m disappointed as Walt’s mantra is not being carried on by the company. Only bean counters decide what’s best. It’s Not about the weenie at all!
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
It's not advanced stuff. It's literally Architecture 101, and they're blowing it on a colossal scale.
I like to think some of it is Architecture 102, thank you very much.

Also, “form follows function” is Louis Sullivan, not Meis. I’d also argue it actually applies very much to themed design as Sullivan was very much focused on emotion as a function. In themed entertainment the function is the story and the form should always support that as much as possible.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
I like to think some of it is Architecture 102, thank you very much.

Also, “form follows function” is Louis Sullivan, not Meis. I’d also argue it actually applies very much to themed design as Sullivan was very much focused on emotion as a function. In themed entertainment the function is the story and the form should always support that as much as possible.
This. I think people (and by people, I mean whoever is designing things at WDW these days) seem to have forgotten that creating a themed environment is storytelling. The original “imagineers” (and maybe the second generation after them) understood this.
 

HauntedPirate

Sheltered-at-home Park nostalgist
Premium Member
This. I think people (and by people, I mean whoever is designing things at WDW these days) seem to have forgotten that creating a themed environment is storytelling. The original “imagineers” (and maybe the second generation after them) understood this.

But... but... WDI, and THE Zach Riddley on Instagram, have put out multiple marketing- and PR-approved statements that they are storytelling all over the park. SSE is supposedly going to be all about storytelling. Moana is going to tell us about the journey of water through storytelling. HARMonius is going to be about storytelling. Etc etc etc. That must mean they know what they are talking about, right?
 

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