News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

flynnibus

Premium Member
I understand. I'm raising a structural question.

The creation of the board was an act of the Florida state legislature and the governor. The actions taken by the board were actions taken by the board.

So I'm questioning who the defendant would be in any legal action. Can Disney sue the governor and the legislature for actions taken by the board? Do they sue the board itself? Do they sue the legislature and the board all together?
The answer to your question really depends on which vector you are talking about

1A topic? The board so far hasn't been trampling 1A topics. The state did. So obviously they go after the state for the passage of the law that restructured RCID.

But there are many other angles that would have impacted either Disney or the district in response to the state laws passed - some of which is why the state had to make try #2 and instead restructure the district's charter. In those cases the parties could have been completely different.

You're asking broad questions instead of sticking to specific scenarios. There isn't one answer for all of them, it depends on the specific complaint you are referring to.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I understand. I'm raising a structural question.

The creation of the board was an act of the Florida state legislature and the governor. The actions taken by the board were actions taken by the board.

So I'm questioning who the defendant would be in any legal action. Can Disney sue the governor and the legislature for actions taken by the board? Do they sue the board itself? Do they sue the legislature and the board all together?
Just because the board was created and now modified as an act of the FL legislature doesn’t mean any and all actions of the board are permissible and legal.

Disney has a legally executed development agreement that protects them from the vast majority of the actions the Governor and board have threatened. If the board fails to honor that contract in any meaningful way it ends up in court as Disney vs the district. A simple contract dispute no different than any other corporation disputing a local government action. Mundane and common with years of legal precedent.

If the district attempts to enforce authority that it does not have (something not already covered under the development agreement) then again that ends up in court as Disney vs district. An example of that could be the unlawful restriction of Covid safety requirements. Since the district has no legally authorized police force it would be difficult to enforce that anyway so seems like more of a PR stunt and Disney as a private business in America will continue to operate as they see fit when it comes to guest and employee safety.

I suppose somewhere down the line this could end up in court where Disney sued the board and Governor together but that really would only be in relation to a 1st amendment case. The Governor is not supposed to have unilateral control of a local government like this (he legally doesn’t, but does in practice) so there’s not much Disney could sue him directly for. I guess maybe if he follows through on his threat to force Orange and Osceola Counties to change their assessments on Disney’s property there could be a lawsuit over that but it may be the counties suing the Governor for interference.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Just because the board was created and now modified as an act of the FL legislature doesn’t mean any and all actions of the board are permissible and legal.
No kidding. My point is that the board taking illegal action against Disney would not be cause for a lawsuit against the governor, as some here have claimed.

People were saying things like "Disney should sue the Govenor (or the State of Florida, or the Legislature) because the board seems poised to take hostile and possibly illegal action." No. You sue the governor for governor things, and you sue the board for board things. You don't get to sue the Governor for the actions of the board.

Disney has a legally executed development agreement that protects them from the vast majority of the actions the Governor and board have threatened. If the board fails to honor that contract in any meaningful way it ends up in court as Disney vs the district. A simple contract dispute no different than any other corporation disputing a local government action. Mundane and common with years of legal precedent.

If the district attempts to enforce authority that it does not have (something not already covered under the development agreement) then again that ends up in court as Disney vs district. An example of that could be the unlawful restriction of Covid safety requirements. Since the district has no legally authorized police force it would be difficult to enforce that anyway so seems like more of a PR stunt and Disney as a private business in America will continue to operate as they see fit when it comes to guest and employee safety.

I suppose somewhere down the line this could end up in court where Disney sued the board and Governor together but that really would only be in relation to a 1st amendment case. The Governor is not supposed to have unilateral control of a local government like this (he legally doesn’t, but does in practice) so there’s not much Disney could sue him directly for. I guess maybe if he follows through on his threat to force Orange and Osceola Counties to change their assessments on Disney’s property there could be a lawsuit over that but it may be the counties suing the Governor for interference.
My point is, the Governor isn't the one running the board. So the Governor blustering in a campaign speech followed by board action on a related topic does not create a course of action against the governor.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
An example of that could be the unlawful restriction of Covid safety requirements. Since the district has no legally authorized police force it would be difficult to enforce that anyway so seems like more of a PR stunt and Disney as a private business in America will continue to operate as they see fit when it comes to guest and employee safety.
@castlecake2.0 This would be an excellent question for the board. If businesses impose COVID-type mitigation measures contrary to the board's "resolutions to make regulations" what would happen to them? What enforcement powers does the board have?
 

Dranth

Well-Known Member
Yes, I’m angry about what DeSantis did, but I’m also disappointed that despite their track record, people didn’t have more faith in Disney.
I think you have to remember where we were at the time to understand the lack of faith. Chapek had already set the tone and the company felt like it was losing it's way at a substantially accelerated pace. Keeping that in mind, I understand why people felt they had to do something.

I think every last person who has honestly participated in this thread believes that had anyone with a handful of active brain cells been running the company, this whole situation would have been handled much better.

However, the reaction by the state is next level ridiculous and disgusting. The fact that there is anyone who would support the governing body of Florida on this one shows just how blinded by partisan bickering and short sighted people can be.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
People were saying things like "Disney should sue the Govenor (or the State of Florida, or the Legislature) because the board seems poised to take hostile and possibly illegal action." No. You sue the governor for governor things, and you sue the board for board things. You don't get to sue the Governor for the actions of the board.

Again you're blurring things instead of sticking to the points being made in their own context.

In case of the board taking actions - it solidifies the argument that redefining the district did lead to harm to disney and the collusion between the board and the governor strengthens the argument that the changes were part of a specific effort to target or punish Disney.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
See first couple hundred pages of the thread on that debate when the original bill actually dissolved the district. No point rehashing that. What we have today is not that. We have a board controlled by political appointees intent on exacting revenge on a corporation. It’s no longer a hypothetical debate on whether the district will be used to harm Disney. The Governor made that crystal clear with his press tantrum the other day. It’s not possible to just call this the state removing a perk Disney had. It’s well beyond that. So a long winded way of saying….not exactly reasonable ;)

Who could have guessed during those first couple hundred pages of discussion that outright dissolution of the RCID would have been preferable to what we have now?

A year ago dissolution seemed like a horrible outcome, now I think Disney should sue for dissolution of the new board so they aren’t under different standards as everyone else.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Who could have guessed during those first couple hundred pages of discussion that outright dissolution of the RCID would have been preferable to what we have now?

A year ago dissolution seemed like a horrible outcome, now I think Disney should sue for dissolution of the new board so they aren’t under different standards as everyone else.

Dissolution was always a worse outcome for Florida - not Disney. Which is why the gov finally pivoted.

Meanwhile has anyone heard anything about all the other special districts the state zapped, or did the language of the new law just wipe that prior one out completely for them? I'm not clear in my reading of the text, but I don't see it nullifying the entire prior law?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Who could have guessed during those first couple hundred pages of discussion that outright dissolution of the RCID would have been preferable to what we have now?

A year ago dissolution seemed like a horrible outcome, now I think Disney should sue for dissolution of the new board so they aren’t under different standards as everyone else.
Dissolution could have put all of Florida into an economic crisis. There’s some existentially dangerous things at play now but they’re not quite as sudden.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Who could have guessed during those first couple hundred pages of discussion that outright dissolution of the RCID would have been preferable to what we have now?
Not for the residents of Orange and Osceola counties.

I think there's a principled case to be made that Orange and Osceola taxpayers have been the beneficiaries of Disney's economic development the past 50 years and should have participated in the costs of the infrastructure all along, but you can't just spring that on them out of the blue. You can't un-ring a bell that's been ringing for half a century.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
No kidding. My point is that the board taking illegal action against Disney would not be cause for a lawsuit against the governor, as some here have claimed.

People were saying things like "Disney should sue the Govenor (or the State of Florida, or the Legislature) because the board seems poised to take hostile and possibly illegal action." No. You sue the governor for governor things, and you sue the board for board things. You don't get to sue the Governor for the actions of the board.


My point is, the Governor isn't the one running the board. So the Governor blustering in a campaign speech followed by board action on a related topic does not create a course of action against the governor.
So the point of your post was to establish that the Governor cannot be sued for this stuff? The mundane contract stuff, no. The 1st amendment stuff, absolutely. So it depends on what case. He can also potentially be sued for “running the board” illegally. These same public records requests go both ways. Is he smart enough to not send direct communications to board members via e-mail? Texts to their personal cell phones? He seems too arrogant to me to care to take those steps and that could come back to bite him should a case be heard where the Governor is the defendant and he has to show proof he wasn’t controlling the board to do his bidding in attempt to punish Disney for speaking out. Since he is stating that he’s doing that publicly all over the country now the burden of proof may fall to him to show that’s just political speech and not what’s actually happening.
 

drnilescrane

Well-Known Member
Not for the residents of Orange and Osceola counties.

I think there's a principled case to be made that Orange and Osceola taxpayers have been the beneficiaries of Disney's economic development the past 50 years and should have participated in the costs of the infrastructure all along, but you can't just spring that on them out of the blue. You can't un-ring a bell that's been ringing for half a century.
I'd also argue that they have a right to participate in the planning processes for development that affects their communities. While Reedy Creek is ultimately beneficial to the surrounding communities in the sense they don't have to bear the cost, and nor should they, I still believe it disenfranchises them. At least DisneylandForward has the facade of community consultation.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'd also argue that they have a right to participate in the planning processes for development that affects their communities. While Reedy Creek is ultimately beneficial to the surrounding communities in the sense they don't have to bear the cost, and nor should they, I still believe it disenfranchises them. At least DisneylandForward has the facade of community consultation.
I think the difference is the scope of the property and the layout. If more residential property was up against Disney development it would be a much bigger issue. Any commercial property next to Disney is directly benefiting from Disney being there so likely not a problem. In Anaheim Disneyland is not as isolated.
 

Henry Mystic

Author of "A Manor of Fact"
My point is, the Governor isn't the one running the board. So the Governor blustering in a campaign speech followed by board action on a related topic does not create a course of action against the governor.
The exclusive reason it happened is because DeSantis spearheaded it. Stop focusing on semantics. There's no point to be had there.

It's almost like you're trying to be a contrarian on everything.

You've been proven wrong on this subject time and time again. Sure, your other political views can be totally valid, but your pattern on this specific one is not. I'm sure you're a fine person and I don't mean harm, but you've long past sounded like a broken record.

DeSantis tried using this whole thing as an easy political pitch for voters he can dupe into thinking it was an important issue, so he could say he's a fighter against woke corporate forces. Ignoring the fact that executives of a company have 1st amendment protections that prevent government retribution for free speech, it was DeSantis' way to hog the national spotlight.

Defining an issue out of thin air and claiming a "win" is easier than actually trying to improve things like infrastructure quality, healthcare costs, or the low per-student K-12 education funding Florida has (and thus worse results versus most other states). Those require real discussions, based on real facts, with policy that can actually affect people's lives for better or worse.

Anyone that was legitimately trying to initially understand what was going on based on the facts and not noise with this tirade against Disney, a greedy company just like any other conglomerate but with massive positive economic impacts on Florida, could see this motive being as clear as day from the start. DeSantis never hid it. It was always about retribution for Chapek's U-tern on opposing a bill DeSantis passed, one which was also trying to find a solution to an issue that just doesn't exist. Plain and simple.



When DeSantis and team realized they couldn't just dissolve RCID because it's actually complex and taxes Disney at a higher rate than they otherwise would be in exchange for autonomy, they had to go back and redefine what "beating" Disney was.

Then, of course, Disney's lawyers outsmarted him and his allies. He threw a fit.

And of course, DeSantis' recent rant about 100% laying out specific examples of how to punish Disney to the detriment of the state's economy and freedom of speech. It is finally drawing widespread bipartisan pushback.

The whole thing was a charade and inherently authoritarian. If DeSantis wanted to change RCID that would've been totally acceptable.

It isn't acceptible as retribution.

If someone acknowledges these facts and then has an opinion that likes what DeSantis is doing, that is totally fair. The same is true for someone that doesn't like these actions.

If someone is okay with 1st amendment rights being trampled because they don't care so long as their side takes a win, I completely and vehemently disagree with them, but that opinion is valid because it's starting from a place of facts. If someone says "It wasn't a 1st amendment issue because it wasn't retribution" that is a flagrantly invalid and illogical opinion.

This applies to any political view, party, or otherwise. Political Science is not immune from logical debate, just like economics is not, supply chain management is not, biology is not, the list goes on. Contrary to what people say, it's not all opinions. That view stems from the fact that most people (from both parties) legitimately have no grasp of the underlying facts. Valid opinions stem from facts. Logical opinions take that a step further and look at various evidence-based opinions that hold to scrutiny and comparison to reach a conclusion.

As another example, if the goal is to improve upward mobility, that's a vastly different goal than trying to save money in taxes. Both of those goals are valid, and what someone could want in policy (the opinion) would then be altered. Redefining what things do real world (the facts) to justify a belief is not.

I don't know anything about how a football organization runs. I don't claim to know. I'd defer to people that do rather than trying to have an opinion on it, or research using as reputable and least-biased sources I can find.

Frankly, the same goes for public policy. There's nothing wrong with not being intimately familiar with a subject, but I do have an issue with people trying to act like they know a lot about a subject when they just flat-out don't.

Actual substantive discussion requires strictly adhering to evidence and the topic at hand while filtering out the noise.

I cannot stress enough that a difference of opinions is fine. In fact, it is most definitely a good thing overall!

It's the only way we can learn and grow.

However, trying to shift the debate by ignoring objective truths, being unwilling to genuinely hear the fact-based views of others while acting as if a lack of knowledge on a subject is equivalent to someone who does, deflecting a valid argument with whatboutism and/or logical fallacies is not at all productive.

Thus, we are 750 pages into a thread talking about facts that are long past settled.

Opine all you want, but start from a place of facts, and opine from there.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I'd also argue that they have a right to participate in the planning processes for development that affects their communities. While Reedy Creek is ultimately beneficial to the surrounding communities in the sense they don't have to bear the cost, and nor should they, I still believe it disenfranchises them. At least DisneylandForward has the facade of community consultation.
There’s been no community participation in Universal Orlando Resort’s South Campus beyond the land being zoned as a planned development that lets its developer have incredibly wide latitude to develop the property as they desire. There is no community participation in new developments at SeaWorld.

As I’ve said many, many times before, Reedy Creek Improvement District was created at a time when local governments in Florida were not even required to enforce a building code. The state has a long history of large, privately planned land development. Saying the government should have exerted a level of control over Disney that it did not exert over others at the time and in many ways still does not exert is to apply standards that are completely outside of the actual context of the situation.
 

castlecake2.0

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
@castlecake2.0 This would be an excellent question for the board. If businesses impose COVID-type mitigation measures contrary to the board's "resolutions to make regulations" what would happen to them? What enforcement powers does the board have?
Bingo! I was trying to come up with what I was going to say. This would be a great question. The board will not respond to anything being put towards them, it’s only time for “public comment” and all they will say is “thank you for your comment” but it would be a great question, especially if it catches the news reporters attention.
 

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