News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[Heppenheimer]

Our Governor, here in CO, offered when the whole thing started. I'd love to find out if there have been any real discussions about some entertainment venture. Not full 3rd resort, but something more akin to what Universal is doing in TX or in your neck of the woods. Disney's problem is that the best places for additional development are probably Texas or Missouri / Kentucky / Tennessee and those states have their own issues these days. Or up north, where weather and CA type regulations are an issue.

Time to dust-off those old plans for a Disney ski resort.

(Hey Disney, there's two resorts here in Vermont under receivership after a developmental deal went bad...).

 

[GoofGoof]

Im not a lawyer but it seems to me that the state mearly needs to show that RCID and Disney had a "self serving" collusion happening. If the state has examples of this...and my guess is they will find a TON of it over the decades...the State will will win this.

Can anybody say with a high degree of confidence that Disney did "not" colude with RCID? Did Disney "not" use RCID to serve the company. I'm guessing the state Investigator General is going to dig VERY deep into the communications between RCID and Disney execs and I suspect they will find plenty of improper and yes...illeagle dealings between RCID and the company. I would even guess that Disney is trying to scrub and clean those communication records as fast as they can.

Yes....I do suspect the state WILL find corruption over the decades...and they will find that evidence very quickly.

Or maybe Im 100% wrong???

The public record request came back blank, no findings. It’s not improper or illegal for Disney to interact with RCID.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

And yet, how come you didn't have issues with these pre-Disney fight

I didn't like them pre-Disney fight either, they just weren't a hot topic of conversation back then so it never came up.

and why isn't DeSantis taking on all these special districts that operate/are structured like RCID?

Because this whole thing is political theater, I thought everyone was in agreement on that?

It's driving me insane that nobody seems capable of nuance. Your position isn't nuanced, and that's fine, it doesn't have to be. But people can have all sorts of positions IN BETWEEN "everything DeSantis has done on this is bad" and "everything DeSantis has done on this is good."

 

[CaptainAmerica]

My entire disagreement is based on the reason WHY it was done, then the subsequent power grab by the state and replacing the board with unqualified party loyalists.

We agree on that, too.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Real estate taxes? For Federal or State corporate income tax it wouldn’t matter since land isn’t depreciated. For real estate taxes Disney is transferring preserved wetlands to the district to manage so they don’t pay real estate taxes to the county on that land, but Disney also doesn’t take EMS and fire services or road maintenance or waste water and sewer management or trash removal services from the counties. I have never heard Orange or Osceola counties complain about the setup. It’s a huge windfall for the counties that Disney carves out those services and pays for them separately for their property. That’s why when the original plan was proposed to dissolve the district and have the counties absorb the assets/liabilities and services Orange County estimated they would need to increase real estate taxes 25% on all property owners.

The "preserved wetlands" status is a sham. They're not "preserved wetlands" because Disney is really enthusiastic about conserving the natural flora and fauna of Central Florida, they're "preserved wetlands" because Disney wants to protect the bubble. It's a commercial interest.

Like... this was literally the plot of the latest season of Yellowstone.

 

[GBAB1973]

Im not a lawyer but it seems to me that the state mearly needs to show that RCID and Disney had a "self serving" collusion happening. If the state has examples of this...and my guess is they will find a TON of it over the decades...the State will will win this.

Can anybody say with a high degree of confidence that Disney did "not" colude with RCID? Did Disney "not" use RCID to serve the company. I'm guessing the state Investigator General is going to dig VERY deep into the communications between RCID and Disney execs and I suspect they will find plenty of improper and yes...illeagle dealings between RCID and the company. I would even guess that Disney is trying to scrub and clean those communication records as fast as they can.

Yes....I do suspect the state WILL find corruption over the decades...and they will find that evidence very quickly.

Or maybe Im 100% wrong???

Well for starters, the very nature of a special district that is self serving. That's one of the points of a special district. When granted, of course there is going to be a self serving component to this. Take The Villages and their special districts. Don't you think there is a self serving component to that set up? Of course there is. The special districts comprising The Villages were created to best serve the actual community. The special districts have boards made up of elected residents. You don't think residents representing their own special district isn't self serving?

The rest of your post is just rabbit hole conspiracies like how Disney is apparently destroying correspondence, legal docs, etc.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Im not a lawyer but it seems to me that the state mearly needs to show that RCID and Disney had a "self serving" collusion happening. If the state has examples of this...and my guess is they will find a TON of it over the decades...the State will will win this.

Can anybody say with a high degree of confidence that Disney did "not" colude with RCID? Did Disney "not" use RCID to serve the company. I'm guessing the state Investigator General is going to dig VERY deep into the communications between RCID and Disney execs and I suspect they will find plenty of improper and yes...illeagle dealings between RCID and the company. I would even guess that Disney is trying to scrub and clean those communication records as fast as they can.

Yes....I do suspect the state WILL find corruption over the decades...and they will find that evidence very quickly.

Or maybe Im 100% wrong???

Yes, I can absolutely say with confidence that something done in public is not done in secret.

 

[Kamikaze]

The "preserved wetlands" status is a sham. They're not "preserved wetlands" because Disney is really enthusiastic about conserving the natural flora and fauna of Central Florida, they're "preserved wetlands" because Disney wants to protect the bubble. It's a commercial interest.

Like... this was literally the plot of the latest season of Yellowstone.

Point being?

They're preserved and can't be used to build on. Doesn't matter why, really.

And a lot of that 'preserved' land was traded for other preserved land when Disney wanted to build. As long as they keep whatever the ratio they need to keep, they're within the agreement.

Im not a lawyer but it seems to me that the state mearly needs to show that RCID and Disney had a "self serving" collusion happening. If the state has examples of this...and my guess is they will find a TON of it over the decades...the State will will win this.

Can anybody say with a high degree of confidence that Disney did "not" colude with RCID? Did Disney "not" use RCID to serve the company. I'm guessing the state Investigator General is going to dig VERY deep into the communications between RCID and Disney execs and I suspect they will find plenty of improper and yes...illeagle dealings between RCID and the company. I would even guess that Disney is trying to scrub and clean those communication records as fast as they can.

Yes....I do suspect the state WILL find corruption over the decades...and they will find that evidence very quickly.

Or maybe Im 100% wrong???

Can't prove a negative, big guy. The opposition would have to prove that they did.
In this case, FL would have to find documents to prove there was illegal collusion. Disney can't present documents that don't exist.

And as far as 'over the decades' is concerned, none of that matters. They are only seeking documents in the sole situation of the agreements made after RCID was replaced by CFTOD and the moves RCID made to give Disney control back. Note that there is no issue with RCID giving that control to Disney, that isn't illegal (as DeSantis found out after the fact) - it would just be anything that wasn't done via back channels that could be a problem.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The "preserved wetlands" status is a sham. They're not "preserved wetlands" because Disney is really enthusiastic about conserving the natural flora and fauna of Central Florida, they're "preserved wetlands" because Disney wants to protect the bubble. It's a commercial interest.

Like... this was literally the plot of the latest season of Yellowstone.

Most of the preserved wetlands owned by the District are down in Osceola County, nowhere near “the bubble”. Setting aside land for conservation was also part of the deal made with the state.

 

[lentesta]

The constitutionality of past laws was never challenged. Legislation is not reviewed by the courts before it is enacted. To get a law overturned as unconstitutional someone with standing must sue the government to challenge it, something that can happen years later.

The land development agreement and covenants were not last minute deals. The entire public hearing and approval process was done months before the dissolution date then set in state law. It was the state legislature who proposed a different set of legislation the day before the final hearing and approval. The governor then waited nearly 20 days to make the legislation law.

There was no taking of power. The covenants and land development agreement are all allowed under Florida. This is literally what the state claims they want, Disney being treated the same.

Land ownership based special districts are supposed to serve the landowners. That’s their whole purpose. That’s why their officials are exempt from certain conflict of interest requirements, because they have to serve the landowners.

I noted on the podcast that the board of the Wilton Drive district (Broward County, I think) is made up of land and business owners in the district, who can profit directly from the decisions made by the district.

 

[GoofGoof]

The "preserved wetlands" status is a sham. They're not "preserved wetlands" because Disney is really enthusiastic about conserving the natural flora and fauna of Central Florida, they're "preserved wetlands" because Disney wants to protect the bubble. It's a commercial interest.

Like... this was literally the plot of the latest season of Yellowstone.

Florida law disagrees with you. Disney could essentially avoid most or all property taxes on that land without RCID

https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida_statutes_196-26#:~:text=Florida%20Statutes%20196.26%20–%20Exemption%20for%20real%20property,the%20land%20exempt%20from%20taxation%20under%20this%20section.

“Land that is dedicated in perpetuity for conservation purposes and that is used exclusively for conservation purposes is exempt from ad valorem taxation.”

Your argument that getting that land off their books saves them on property taxes is not valid. The counties know this and it’s probably why they never fought it.

Not sure why the link isn’t working but just search FL statute 196.26

 

[GBAB1973]

I didn't like them pre-Disney fight either, they just weren't a hot topic of conversation back then so it never came up.


Because this whole thing is political theater, I thought everyone was in agreement on that?

It's driving me insane that nobody seems capable of nuance. Your position isn't nuanced, and that's fine, it doesn't have to be. But people can have all sorts of positions IN BETWEEN "everything DeSantis has done on this is bad" and "everything DeSantis has done on this is good."

But the question is why are corporate controlled municipal entities problematic? In other words, what about the RCID is so bad that what Florida needs is for the state to step in and control them? You claim corporate welfare but one, this really isn't corporate welfare and that's a nebulous comment anyway with regards to this situation.

 

[GBAB1973]

Florida law disagrees with you. Disney could essentially avoid most or all property taxes on that land without RCID

https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida_statutes_196-26#:~:text=Florida%20Statutes%20196.26%20–%20Exemption%20for%20real%20property,the%20land%20exempt%20from%20taxation%20under%20this%20section.

“Land that is dedicated in perpetuity for conservation purposes and that is used exclusively for conservation purposes is exempt from ad valorem taxation.”

Your argument that getting that land off their books saves them on property taxes is not valid. The counties know this and it’s probably why they never fought it.

Further, there are parcels owned by RCID where they actually do pay county taxes. You can look up the tax records right on the county website. So the idea that transferring land to RCID to avoid paying property taxes isn't entirely accurate.

 

[mkt]

I noted on the podcast that the board of the Wilton Drive district (Broward County, I think) is made up of land and business owners in the district, who can profit directly from the decisions made by the district.

aka, the Gayborhood. Also the best place to get a grilled cheese in South Florida. And not too far from a place where I'd go to get vintage vinyl records.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Most of the preserved wetlands owned by the District are down in Osceola County, nowhere near “the bubble”. Setting aside land for conservation was also part of the deal made with the state.

................

That's... exactly the point.

"Here, government that we control, hold on to the these protected wetlands for us. We might need them for development later, but shhh we're not going to talk about that. Just make sure that nobody else gets to develop anything on them."

Ten years later...

"Hey, government that we control, remember those sweet wetlands that you've been holding onto so that there can't be any development on them? Those highly valuable, smack-in-the-middle-of-the-biggest-tourism-hub-in-the-world wetlands? Well we'd like to un-protect them because we'd like to build a new DVC resort. Yeah yeah yeah, don't worry about those conservation covenants, we're going to buy some super cheap swampland in the middle of the state that nobody wants anyways and 'donate' that so our conservation obligations will be satisfied. We'll just do a little tradesies and everyone will come out even-steven."

 

[mkt]

we're going to buy some super cheap swampland in the middle of the state that nobody wants

You just described WDW.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Florida law disagrees with you. Disney could essentially avoid most or all property taxes on that land without RCID

https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida_statutes_196-26#:~:text=Florida%20Statutes%20196.26%20–%20Exemption%20for%20real%20property,the%20land%20exempt%20from%20taxation%20under%20this%20section.

“Land that is dedicated in perpetuity for conservation purposes and that is used exclusively for conservation purposes is exempt from ad valorem taxation.”

Your argument that getting that land off their books saves them on property taxes is not valid. The counties know this and it’s probably why they never fought it.

Not sure why the link isn’t working but just search FL statute 196.26

"Perpetuity" doesn't last as long as you'd think.

Read up on Mira Lago (not to be confused with Mar-A-Lago).

 

[lazyboy97o]

I noted on the podcast that the board of the Wilton Drive district (Broward County, I think) is made up of land and business owners in the district, who can profit directly from the decisions made by the district.

Universal’s proposed community development district would also be controlled by Universal and any other landowners who decide to join the district. While the focus is on transportation, a community development district could take control of things like roads and emergency services, including fire code review of buildings.

 

[lazyboy97o]

................

That's... exactly the point.

"Here, government that we control, hold on to the these protected wetlands for us. We might need them for development later, but shhh we're not going to talk about that. Just make sure that nobody else gets to develop anything on them."

Ten years later...

"Hey, government that we control, remember those sweet wetlands that you've been holding onto so that there can't be any development on them? Those highly valuable, smack-in-the-middle-of-the-biggest-tourism-hub-in-the-world wetlands? Well we'd like to un-protect them because we'd like to build a new DVC resort. Yeah yeah yeah, don't worry about those conservation covenants, we're going to buy some super cheap swampland in the middle of the state that nobody wants anyways and 'donate' that so our conservation obligations will be satisfied. We'll just do a little tradesies and everyone will come out even-steven."

You’re again conflating different things. The lands that get traded for conservation offsets aren’t the same lands that are owned by the District, especially the large contiguous holdings nowhere near or contiguous with Walt Disney World. They’re also very much wetlands that are part of water management of the Reedy Creek watershed that is some of the northernmost waters of the Everglades hydrological system.

 

[Cliff]

The public record request came back blank, no findings. It’s not improper or illegal for Disney to interact with RCID.

Sure...interacting is expected. As long as it was leagal and within the proper boundries. Its my guess that Disney, over time, got so "comfortable" with RCID that tge crossed the lines. I suspect that crossing the line got so "common" and "normal"...that it became standard operating proceedure. Why?....because Disney never dreamed in a million years that the state would suddenly pull out a giant flashlight and start looking under all the rocks.

I suspect that MANY people will be formaly questioned and I think that hundreds of people know where the proverbial bodies are burried.

My guess is that the state will seize email servers and hard drives. I think that IT people and document handlers will he heavily questioned too.

But again...I might be 100% wrong