News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Send their armies of lobbyists to Tallahassee to secure some seats on the board. The argument on its own is sound: taxation without representation flies in the face of American values. The money would only further sweeten the deal.
The board is appointed by the Governor not the legislature. The Governor has millions and millions in a war chest so I doubt any amount Disney kicked in will matter and one of his primary talking point as he campaigns around the country is bragging about taking down woke Disney. No amount of “lobbying” would have changed his mind.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'm not calling the original RCID a "sweetheart deal," I'm calling the contract signed by the outgoing RCID board in the weeks/months leading up to their ouster
The “sweetheart deal” as you call it still gives Disney less power and less control than what they had under RCID for 50+ years so I can’t see how this new contract is a sweetheart deal but the original setup wasn’t.

I do see how supporters of the Governor don’t like the new deal because it makes him look foolish at a time he seems to be fading in popularity. Terrible PR politically, but the contract itself is not really any better for Disney.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Where I take issue with the contract is that the local government officials (appointed by the governor, but local officials nonetheless), are completely powerless to deviate from the whims of one of the most influential and powerful corporations in the world, effectively making DeSantis' original argument that Disney acts as "feudal lords" over their land somewhat true. With this arrangement, they might as well make Jeff Vahle the Chairman of the CFTOD board.

Sure, I see why they (Disney and the then RCID board) did it in the first place, but I think it plays right into DeSantis' hand.
Can we level set on what this contract actually does? You claim it allows Disney to act as feudal lords over their land but does it really? It’s my understanding that the development plan lays out very narrowly defined uses for the land directly related to Disney’s actual business. They have control to build hotels and theme parks and entertainment related venues. That’s it. They cannot build a nuclear power plant or use the land as a trash dump or some other negative use. So I understand the political rhetoric is they were governing their own land but in reality they still have to follow state and county laws. The district very narrowly covers certain municipal services and the development agreement specifically is preventing the new board from restricting “relevant development” as a way to influence the company’s content or actions.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
To keep things a little bit light….it turns out we found out who the new sheriff in town is:

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Brian

Well-Known Member
I think you're missing the reason special districts exist. The alternative would be for Orange County (in Disney's case) or Orlando (in Universal's case) being on the hook for building the massive infrastructure needed to run a theme park, and providing municipal services to the theme parks. This would require both a massive investment from the taxpayers of Orange County/Orlando, and massive amounts of red tape from those local governments as well, who don't necessarily have the resources to manage such large projects. The result would be projects that solely benefit one corporation taking years longer, at likely higher cost, and at taxpayer expense.

What special districts do is give the businesses building such large infrastructure that solely benefit them some autonomy over those projects and the permitting/zoning processes around them through officials that they elect, but at their expense, putting the cost burden for such infrastructure on the company instead of the taxpayers. I'm not sure what a better / more appropriate arrangement would be? Counties can't simply bill Disney or Universal for infrastructure - tax law doesn't work like that, especially in Florida.

And I am sorry, no one should be denied the right to vote. Once you start going down that road, you can really go down a slippery slope. (E.g. teachers shouldn't get the right to vote because their unions tell them how to vote, religious people shouldn't get the right to vote because their pastors tell them how to vote etc.). That's a really, really dangerous idea.
I'm not denying the utility of special districts. I live in one and see the benefit of it. What is troubling are agreements made which make the board legally obligated to act in a certain way, especially when one party to the agreement is a company as powerful and influential as Disney. I'd say the same thing about Universal if that were the case.

There's a trust than owns a handful of the homes in my CDD of about 1,500 homes. If the district were to make an arrangement with them that obligated the board to spend money exactly as the trust sees fit, I would absolutely be taking them to court.

There is a stark contrast between the arrangement Disney has with the arrangements for residents of LBV/Bay Lake, and what you're describing. If you are one of the handful of residents, you are expected to vote as Disney wishes you to vote, or you can be evicted, and if you work for the company, likely terminated. While a pastor or union staffer may try to convince folks to vote a certain way, they are not obligated to do so, and, in most cases I can think of, their vote would be a secret ballot anyway, so they wouldn't even have a way to try to retaliate.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
....

Again, I accept your point that Disney has to have a way to have some influence as the landowner of virtually all of the district, however,
I don't think that the means by which they achieved it is the best way to go about it.

Agreed, which is why I don't think Disney saw any need to rock the boat over how things ran for the previous 50 years.

Their legal maneuvering was sort of a last-ditch effort to combat what the governor of our state, with clear and un-hidden malice, was trying to do to them.

I'm sure Disney executives would agree with you but they used the avenue left open to them.

They're not the ones that forced this situation - DeSantis is.

They just did what they needed to, to protect their interests given our state government's sudden interest in using coercion to influence their national/international business practices.

If I were in Disney's position, I wouldn't be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to this new board and just "see what happens" either. Given the boards reaction to finding out the situation, it seems pretty clear Disney made the right decision, too.

I went into this optimistic that once DeSantis got the political win, he'd move on and leave things alone but it's clear that with who was appointed and what they have said, they were ready to start making more trouble for the company, almost immediately.
 
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peter11435

Well-Known Member
I'm not denying the utility of special districts. I live in one and see the benefit of it. What is troubling are agreements made which make the board legally obligated to act in a certain way, especially when one party to the agreement is a company as powerful and influential as Disney. I'd say the same thing about Universal if that were the case.
Besides Disney who do you think is the other party to the agreement? Who else do you think the district serves besides Disney? Whose interests beyond Disneys do you think the district should be concerned with?
 

Stripes

Premium Member
ETA: I can easily see DeSantis pointing fingers at Disney and saying "Look over there! They made a shady deal to give themselves more power right as I was about to take it away from them!" and use that as a predicate for further legislative action. I'm not saying I would necessarily agree with that course of action... I'm just hypothesizing as a DeSantis observer.
Well the legislature isn’t expecting further legislation any time soon on this matter according to the Florida Senate President. But more importantly, what possible law could they enact without violating the contracts clause of the Florida Constitution and the United States Constitution?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
There's a trust than owns a handful of the homes in my CDD of about 1,500 homes. If the district were to make an arrangement with them that obligated the board to spend money exactly as the trust sees fit, I would absolutely be taking them to court.
But we’re not talking about a deal with a minority land owner. We’re talking about a deal with the overwhelming majority landowner that the district is supposed to serve. If you were told that your district was just going to go poof you wouldn’t want to do something that ensures a continuity of services when it was unknown if that would happen? This desire wouldn’t increase if, at the very last minute, instead of being done away with, you were told there would be a new board that intend to break its legal obligations to serve the landowners?
 

Brian

Well-Known Member
The district very narrowly covers certain municipal services and the development agreement specifically is preventing the new board from restricting “relevant development” as a way to influence the company’s content or actions.
What I take from this is that Disney gets to just approve its own development (or at least tell the board "we're doing this, and per the terms of the contract, you have to approve it"), which was not the case with the original RCID scheme. I don't think that's appropriate; there needs to be some form of review for new development, even that which is considered "relevant."

Of course, there also needs to be measures in place to prevent openly hostile board members from trying to dunk on the company at any given opportunity.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
What I take from this is that Disney gets to just approve its own development (or at least tell the board "we're doing this, and per the terms of the contract, you have to approve it"), which was not the case with the original RCID scheme. I don't think that's appropriate; there needs to be some form of review for new development, even that which is considered "relevant."

Of course, there also needs to be measures in place to prevent openly hostile board members from trying to dunk on the company at any given opportunity.
Universal doesn’t do development review for new projects in Orlando (current resort) or Orange County (expansion being built). The Villages don’t do development review for new projects. Even the Disneyland Resort doesn’t do development review for certain new projects. In many places across the country there is no review for small projects if you’re not asking for a zoning variance or additional allowance.

This isn’t something new or different.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
I'm not denying the utility of special districts. I live in one and see the benefit of it. What is troubling are agreements made which make the board legally obligated to act in a certain way, especially when one party to the agreement is a company as powerful and influential as Disney. I'd say the same thing about Universal if that were the case.

There's a trust than owns a handful of the homes in my CDD of about 1,500 homes. If the district were to make an arrangement with them that obligated the board to spend money exactly as the trust sees fit, I would absolutely be taking them to court.

There is a stark contrast between the arrangement Disney has with the arrangements for residents of LBV/Bay Lake, and what you're describing. If you are one of the handful of residents, you are expected to vote as Disney wishes you to vote, or you can be evicted, and if you work for the company, likely terminated. While a pastor or union staffer may try to convince folks to vote a certain way, they are not obligated to do so, and, in most cases I can think of, their vote would be a secret ballot anyway, so they wouldn't even have a way to try to retaliate.
Oh, no!! All those pour souls living in The District forced to abide by Disney's authoritarian rule!!!!!

This is all giant Whataboutism.

Whether it's the original RCID district, or the new one, or all the other Districts in Florida.... none of that matters.

The governor and legislature forced an unconstitutional rewriting of RCID rule in order to punish and silence Disney.

Nothing else matters.

Yeah, we can rejoice or wring our hands at Disney's power play to stop them. But, they wouldn't have had to do anything if it weren't for unconstitutional overreach of DeSantis and company.

Where was all this concern for how the RCID was operating before the Bill of Contention? How much time did you spend thinking about the sweetheart deal Disney had with the RCID?

But now you care?

If you didn't care before, then it seems your current concern is kinda empty. Sounds more like you're trying to paint Disney to be a villain of the story for having this so-called sweetheart deal. Disney didn't do anything illegal or unconstitutional. But DeSantis and company did.

You're sidebar about the minutia of District policy is all hand-wavy and distracting and whataboutism.

It's not the issue, as much as you try to make it the issue.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
What I take from this is that Disney gets to just approve its own development (or at least tell the board "we're doing this, and per the terms of the contract, you have to approve it"), which was not the case with the original RCID scheme. I don't think that's appropriate; there needs to be some form of review for new development, even that which is considered "relevant."

Of course, there also needs to be measures in place to prevent openly hostile board members from trying to dunk on the company at any given opportunity.
Maybe I’m mistaken, but wasn’t the development agreement signed an extension of the one already in place. Many pages back @lentesta posted when they were approving it. I’m pretty sure there was some form of development agreement in place already.

Either way, what harm is there if Disney or Universal or some other business signs a development agreement with the local government (which happens all the time) that allows them to develop their property in a manner consistent with the business they run without approvals for each new project? Who is harmed if Disney decides to build another resort or a 5th gate?
 

Brian

Well-Known Member
Besides Disney who do you think is the other party to the agreement? Who else do you think the district serves besides Disney? Whose interests beyond Disneys do you think the district should be concerned with?
There are small portions of RCID land owned by entities other than Disney. Of course, Disney owns the overwhelming majority of the land, but what I'm getting at is that there should be guardrails in place that prevent Disney from having an arrangement in place where the board is legally obligated to sign off on projects Disney wishes to do. Interests are different than obligations.

Universal doesn’t do development review for new projects. The Villages don’t do development review for new projects. Even the Disneyland Resort doesn’t do development review for certain new projects.

This isn’t something new or different.
In my opinion, none of that is appropriate. The only reason I tend to focus on the RCID/CFTOD scheme is that this is an RCID thread.

Well the legislature isn’t expecting further legislation any time soon on this matter according to the Florida Senate President. But more importantly, what possible law could they enact without violating the contracts clause of the Florida Constitution and the United States Constitution?
I don't think they can, but that doesn't mean they won't try and take their chances in court. That's one of the many problems with politicians of today; they do things they know are almost certainly unconstitutional, but do it anyway so the law can be in effect at least temporarily, score the political points, then blame the courts and further rile their base when it gets struck down. I can name several examples from both sides of the aisle, but I'd rather not let the conversation drift off.

Oh, no!! All those pour souls living in The District forced to abide by Disney's authoritarian rule!!!!!

This is all giant Whataboutism.

Whether it's the original RCID district, or the new one, or all the other Districts in Florida.... none of that matters.

The governor and legislature forced an unconstitutional rewriting of RCID rule in order to punish and silence Disney.

Nothing else matters.
It seems like what you're getting at here is: conversation over! Let's close the thread! Because the legislature did what it did, there is nothing left to talk about.

Yeah, we can rejoice or wring our hands at Disney's power play to stop them. But, they wouldn't have had to do anything if it weren't for unconstitutional overreach of DeSantis and company.

Where was all this concern for how the RCID was operating before the Bill of Contention? How much time did you spend thinking about the sweetheart deal Disney had with the RCID?

But now you care?

Actually, and I'm probably in the minority here, I did spend a considerable amount of time over my decades-long career with the company thinking about RCID, and much of that time was spent thinking about how one company shouldn't have so much quasi-governmental power.

Did I write to my state representative or state senator about it though? Hell no, I wasn't trying to get fired.

If you didn't care before, then it seems your current concern is kinda empty. Sounds more like you're trying to paint Disney to be a villain of the story for having this so-called sweetheart deal. Disney didn't do anything illegal or unconstitutional. But DeSantis and company did.
Disney made a shady deal recently with the contract with the now-ousted board. If you want to call that "villainy," you can, but I certainly recognize the nuance of the situation and them taking steps to protect themselves from an openly hostile board. If anything, it's a poor reflection on DeSantis and the legislature that they didn't anticipate this kind of move and take steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. Now, short of another round of legislation dissolving the district for the purposes of getting Disney to the bargaining table to come up with a more balanced deal, I don't think much can be done that would pass constitutional muster.

Much in the same way that I don't fault big corporations or wealthy individuals from paying less in taxes, since it was the government that enabled them to do that, I don't fault Disney for taking this action; I just don't like it, again, because it only further enriches the company's quasi-governmental power.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
I'm not denying the utility of special districts. I live in one and see the benefit of it. What is troubling are agreements made which make the board legally obligated to act in a certain way, especially when one party to the agreement is a company as powerful and influential as Disney. I'd say the same thing about Universal if that were the case.
Are you trying to be disingenuous on purpose or do you really not have any understanding the nuances? You're repeating all the talking points that are designed to mislead and misrepresent what and who is actually impacted. I'm not sure how we're 10,000+ posts in and you still don't understand the details at this point, which really only leaves the other option.

There's a trust than owns a handful of the homes in my CDD of about 1,500 homes. If the district were to make an arrangement with them that obligated the board to spend money exactly as the trust sees fit, I would absolutely be taking them to court.
Except it isn't like this at all. To make the two similar, we would need to start before the CDD was established, with the trust owning all the homes not just a handful. Then, after the CDD was in existence, the trust selling off only a handful of homes to others with the express understanding before sale that CDD representation is based on number of homes owned. Meaning, the trust already has direction setting through its representation and buyers know this and accepted it prior to purchase.

Changing that control from representation to contractual is effectively irrelevant and only comes into play when the representation mechanism is being eliminated.

This is of course nothing like the CDD you live in, making the comparison irrelevant at best and disingenuous at worst. The comparison and description you're using is designed to convey that Disney is gaining some control over a large swath of people that do not have a choice in matter and are being excluded. The other option would be that we're back at you have no idea about any of the details at all.
 

Brian

Well-Known Member
Maybe I’m mistaken, but wasn’t the development agreement signed an extension of the one already in place. Many pages back @lentesta posted when they were approving it. I’m pretty sure there was some form of development agreement in place already.
I'd be interested to hear the answer to that from someone who has read the contract in full and understands it. I personally haven't had the opportunity to do so; I'm only going based on other members' interpretations.

Either way, what harm is there if Disney or Universal or some other business signs a development agreement with the local government (which happens ll the time) that allows them to develop their property in a manner consistent with the business they run without approvals for each new project? Who is harmed if Disney decides to build another resort or a 5th gate?
Because, put simply, if I want to so much as add a fence to my backyard, I have to get approvals from my city, the HOA and the CDD. That's my property, and I should be able to do it if I wish. If I were Disney, though, at least according to the interpretations and posts of other members recently, I would be able to put up that fence without asking anyone, or if I did have to ask, they'd be contractually obligated to say yes.

Why should Disney, Universal, or whatever other large organization be able to circumvent government processes that individual/personal landowners have to deal with?

ETA: A 5th gate would have major impacts on the infrastructure beyond the district's boundaries, so they should absolutely have to go through extensive review with the counties and the state.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
Universal doesn’t do development review for new projects in Orlando (current resort) or Orange County (expansion being built). The Villages don’t do development review for new projects. Even the Disneyland Resort doesn’t do development review for certain new projects. In many places across the country there is no review for small projects if you’re not asking for a zoning variance or additional allowance.

This isn’t something new or different.

And they are still bound by zoning, building codes, environmental impact studies, and hundreds of other land use and safe building restrictions, it’s not like Disney can just do whatever they want now because RCiD signed away its direct oversight, they are still bound by all the same codes as other builders.
 

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