News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

mmascari

Well-Known Member
Until Bellotti in 1978, most states had laws restricting the First Amendment rights of corporations. There were many reasons behind this.
What were the penalties for breaking those laws?
What was the substance of what was actually being regulated?

Until the DeSantis/Disney fiasco, progressives regularly railed against the power of corporations.
This is gross simplification removing all nuance and substance breaking the positions down to one team vs the other. That's not how things actually work (normally, at least outside the media). There's a world of difference between companies shouldn't be allowed to spend untold amounts of money to influence politics bordering on direct payment for special treatment and companies shouldn't have any representation in the government that controls where they are located, including that employees that live in that jurisdiction should also have no representation.

The structure of the district, it's boarders, the land owners within, the actual people that live within it. All of that isn't some glossed over thing or some type of hack. All of it is fundamental to how the district was constructed, how and why it works, how it functions within the defined system of city/district/county/state governance.

If you think that Sotomayor would reverse her opinion in Citizens United to rule for Disney, then you also have to accept that Thomas and Alito also might reverse themselves to rule against Disney.
I think they'll all look at how the law apply based on the situation at hand. Including all the details that are different.

The three newest conservative justices were not on the Court for Citizens United. Given how many Supreme Court rulings have been overruled in recent years, there's no reason to believe these three newest conservative justices would feel bound by Bellotti or Citizens United.
If we assume that the court has become a team sport of one side vs the other with no consideration of the law. That it's only about one team's position vs the other and how to back into some decision that supports that, while ignoring the details, then the court is lost already and a third of our government structure is gone. That's pretty dark. Darker than the darkest dark ride.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
It wouldn't just be ruling for or against Disney, though. I suppose they could try to narrowly tailor an opinion that didn't have any other consequences, but that would be incredibly difficult to do -- a ruling in favor of Florida in any potential First Amendment case would likely have far reaching effects on the ability of corporations to engage in political speech in general, including making political donations.

It's very unlikely the conservative justices would make that ruling (although I'd welcome it if they did).
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Until Bellotti in 1978, most states had laws restricting the First Amendment rights of corporations. There were many reasons behind this.

Until the DeSantis/Disney fiasco, progressives regularly railed against the power of corporations. For example, the four liberal justices of the Supreme Court (including Sotomayor) wrote in their dissenting opinion in Citizens United:

Postratification practice bolsters the conclusion that the First Amendment, “as originally understood,” … did not give corporations political speech rights on a par with the rights of individuals. Well into the modern era of general incorporation statutes, “[t]he common law was generally interpreted as prohibiting corporate political participation,” First Nat. Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, 435 U. S. 765, 819 (1978) (White, J., dissenting), and this Court did not recognize any First Amendment protections for corporations until the middle part of the 20th century.​

Note that this Citizens United minority opinion harks back to the minority opinion in Bellotti.

Bellotti was a 5-4 decision.

The more recent Citizens United also was a 5-4 decision.

The Supreme Court has overruled many previous decisions within the last 10 years. Now it looks like they are preparing to overrule affirmative action. It would not be surprising if the conservative majority revisited the 5-4 decisions in Bellotti and Citizens United to find some way to rule against Disney, if a case came before them.

If you think that Sotomayor would reverse her opinion in Citizens United to rule for Disney, then you also have to accept that Thomas and Alito also might reverse themselves to rule against Disney.

The three newest conservative justices were not on the Court for Citizens United. Given how many Supreme Court rulings have been overruled in recent years, there's little reason to believe these three newest conservative justices would feel bound by Bellotti or Citizens United.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about people’s views that you don’t know.

None of the laws or cases were about a company issuing an internal memo or press release. Your hypothetical case wouldn’t be just overturning precedent about corporate expenditures, it would be a near total ban on any and all corporate speech related to political issues. It would kill the entire conservative media economy.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Disney doesn't have to say what the message of a project is when they apply for permits.
There are a number of parks where new projects are known because of the extensive amount of documentation required for development review.

Right now Disney, nor another of the other major parks in Central Florida, go through individual development review for attractions. CFTOD is allowed to change that. Wanting to change Disney’s content is a publicly stated objective and there are tools available for completing that objective.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
There are a number of parks where new projects are known because of the extensive amount of documentation required for development review.

Right now Disney, nor another of the other major parks in Central Florida, go through individual development review for attractions. CFTOD is allowed to change that. Wanting to change Disney’s content is a publicly stated objective and there are tools available for completing that objective.
If they try to limit Disney's creative freedom then Disney will have a slam dunk win in court. They would have a hard time changing zoning or anything like that. Governments can restrict the location of bars or "gentleman's clubs" with zoning regulations but you'd have a hard time not allowing a ride in a theme park based on some crazy zoning decision.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
If they try to limit Disney's creative freedom then Disney will have a slam dunk win in court. They would have a hard time changing zoning or anything like that. Governments can restrict the location of bars or "gentleman's clubs" with zoning regulations but you'd have a hard time not allowing a ride in a theme park based on some crazy zoning decision.
We’re already seeing the state attempt to restrict creative choices. They have said they are going to try with Disney and Disney so far has shown they will not fight the state’s actions. The lesson right now is that Disney will do as they are told.

Zoning absolutely can be changed. Other parks in the US do face development review and have to comply with a variety of restrictions even for rides in an amusement park.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
If they try to limit Disney's creative freedom then Disney will have a slam dunk win in court.
They've said that they will. It's going to be indirect though.

They would have a hard time changing zoning or anything like that. Governments can restrict the location of bars or "gentleman's clubs" with zoning regulations but you'd have a hard time not allowing a ride in a theme park based on some crazy zoning decision.
That would be a direct control of content based on zoning, while it could work that way, that isn't the way this would work generally. It would be much more disconnected. The zoning is just a club to control Disney. There's a million changes that can be made, really mundane little things that taken all together create friction and increase Disney costs. Almost all of those taken in isolation will sound reasonable, at least on the surface.

So, someone doesn't like a Disney+ episode. They have some press conferences about getting it removed. Then, completely unrelated but at the same time, specific zoning rules around attractions are made, surprise inspections scheduled, and then Space Mountain is shutdown when it doesn't comply and needs to be updated. Perhaps the episode is removed, maybe it's only removed for viewers in FL, maybe the entire US. Wonder of wonders, the inspection doesn't happen or the rule allows solving it over time instead of shutting down until it's fixed.

Disney will self censor for business reasons anything that the CFTOD would try to restrict.
They're not connected is the issue. The people in charge of CFTOD want to censor the entirety of Disney content. They are saying they'll use the levers they have to achieve that. Disney will need to censor it's entire content production to protect the park from disruptions. Alternatively, learn to live with the disruptions until they exceed some level.


We can use a "not Disney" example as a comparison. Let's say your downhill neighbor Karen doesn't like where you park your car. She lobbies the town to change the water runoff regulations to put more responsibility on the uphill land owner. Then she complains to the town that you're breaking the new changed rules creating a hassle for you. Now, let's change that, Karen is on the town zoning board and doesn't need to lobby anyone. Instead, she just proposes the rule and writes you up, all because she didn't like the way you park the car. That water change sounded completely reasonable on the surface.

The perceived grievances and the controls used do not need to be related at all.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Seems like Fitch is more comfortable now

Makes sense since the bonds were left unchanged, the tax rate the district collects from Disney was left unchanged and WDW is as profitable as its ever been so little risk that the main tax revenue dries up any time soon. The bonds were put on negative watch when the law was passed to dissolve the district and there was no plan to address how they would be paid back. That problem has been solved…..until the next time they decide to dissolve the district which could still be coming.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
One of the controversial decisions from the Burger Court is First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, Attorney General of Massachusetts (1978), commonly referred to as Bellotti.

The Massachusetts legislature wanted a state constitutional amendment for a graduated personal income tax. However, their efforts to win support (a ballot referendum was required) had been thwarted by banking and corporate opposition to this. In response, the Massachusetts legislature passed a statute that fined companies (and jailed their officers) for expressing opinions unless the topic “materially affect[ed] any of the property, business or assets of the corporation.” This sometimes is referred to as the “materially affecting” standard.

This law was upheld by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court on the grounds that a corporation’s right to free speech derives from the Fourteenth Amendment’s property rights, not the First Amendment. Referencing Asbury Hospital v. Cass County (1945), the Massachusetts court wrote “It is undisputed that a corporation ‘is neither a citizen of a state nor of the United States within the protection of the privileges and immunities clauses of Article IV, Section 2 of the Constitution and the Fourteenth Amendment.’” As such, a corporation’s free speech rights ends where its property and business rights end.

The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision was consistent with previous Supreme Court rulings. This decision was appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

In a controversial 5-4 ruling, the Supreme Court reversed the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision. Much of what are viewed today as corporate First Amendment rights originated with this 1978 decision.

The four dissenting justices were outraged. Rather than strengthening the First Amendment, they argued, granting First Amendment rights to powerful profitmaking corporations actually weakened the First Amendment. In competing First Amendment rights, it is more important for individuals to be able to openly debate in “a free marketplace of ideas” than to allow corporations to “seriously threaten the role of the First Amendment”. “[C]orporate expenditures designed to further political causes lack the connection with individual self-expression which is one of the principal justifications for the constitutional protection of speech provided by the First Amendment. Ideas which are not a product of individual choice are entitled to less First Amendment protection.”

The dissent also noted that 31 states had laws to restrict the speech of corporations. Until Bellotti, limiting the speech of corporations was the norm, not the exception.
Again, Disney was not making expenditures. If anything, the big incitement was Disney stopping expenditures.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
If the company is paying its staff to fight "Don't Say Gay", it clearly is spending company money.

TWDC issued the following statement:

Florida's HB 1557, also known as the 'Don't Say Gay' bill, should never have passed and should never have been signed into law. Our goal as a company is for this law to be repealed by the legislature or struck down in the courts, and we remain committed to supporting the national and state organizations working to achieve that. We are dedicated to standing up for the rights and safety of LGBTQ+ members of the Disney family, as well as the LGBTQ+ community in Florida and across the country.​

This statement was not issued by Chapek as a private citizen; it was issued by corporate Disney. At that time, Disney made it clear that they intended to use company resources to fight 'Don't Say Gay'.
I think the bigger piece of their fight was not spending money but pulling back on political donations. The majority of political donations from Disney in FL went to Republican politicians. The plan was to go to these politicians and let them know the well is dry if they support that bill. Since they most likely used paid lobbyists to deliver the message Disney did spend money fighting the bill but the reversal of contributions was the main stick used.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Prior to Bellotti in 1978, such a statement from a corporation was not constitutionally protected. Prior to 1978, "materially affecting" was the commonly applied standard for profitmaking corporations, meaning corporate speech was protected if it “materially affect[ed] any of the property, business or assets of the corporation.”

As noted in the Bellotti dissent:

There is now little doubt that corporate communications come within the scope of the First Amendment. This, however, is merely the starting point of analysis, because an examination of the First Amendment values that corporate expression furthers and the threat to the functioning of a free society it is capable of posing reveals that it is not fungible with communications emanating from individuals and is subject to restrictions which individual expression is not. Indeed, what some have considered to be the principal function of the First Amendment, the use of communication as a means of self-expression, self-realization, and self-fulfillment, is not at all furthered by corporate speech. It is clear that the communications of profitmaking corporations are not "an integral part of the development of ideas, of mental exploration and of the affirmation of self." They do not represent a manifestation of individual freedom or choice.​

Again, as written in the liberal justices' dissent of Citizens United:

Postratification practice bolsters the conclusion that the First Amendment, “as originally understood,” … did not give corporations political speech rights on a par with the rights of individuals. Well into the modern era of general incorporation statutes, “[t]he common law was generally interpreted as prohibiting corporate political participation,” First Nat. Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, 435 U. S. 765, 819 (1978) (White, J., dissenting), and this Court did not recognize any First Amendment protections for corporations until the middle part of the 20th century.​

Prior to Bellotti, corporations had limited First Amendment rights. And "Well into the modern era of general incorporation statutes, [t]he common law was generally interpreted as prohibiting corporate political participation.”

To appreciate the challenge Disney faces in bringing a First Amendment case against the State of Florida, some Supreme Court history is needed.

The Burger Court ran from 1969 to 1986, Warren Burger’s term as Chief Justice. The Burger Court was a transitional court, fitting between the liberal Warren Court and the conservative Rehnquist Court. Today, the Burger Court is best known for its Roe v. Wade ruling. This generally is considered to be the last liberal court.

Even though Chief Justice Roberts has attempted to steer his Court (2005 to present) towards compromise, he’s been less effective at doing so in recent years. Recent appointments have changed the Court’s makeup from one of moderation to one of active conservatism. The current Robert Court is the most conservative court in decades.

The Robert Court has become highly critical of several Burger Court decisions. Most infamously, Roe v Wade (1973) was overturned by Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization (2022). However, this is by no means the only example.

In recent years, there’s a long list of Burger Court decisions overruled by the Roberts Court. Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) overruled Baker v. Nelson (1972). Hurst v. Florida (2016) overruled Spaziano v. Florida (1984). Janus v. AFSCME (2018) overruled Abood v. Detroit Board of Education (1977). Franchise Tax Board of California v. Hyatt (2019) overruled Nevada v. Hall (1979). Ramos v. Louisiana (2020) overruled Apodaca v. Oregon (1972).

In Students for Fair Admissions v. President and Fellows of Harvard College (2023), the Supreme Court appears poised to overturn yet another decision from the Burger Court, Regents of the University of California v. Bakke (1978). Bakke is the foundation of affirmative action.

Taken together, it's clear that the conservative justices of the Roberts Court do not like the decisions from the Burger Court.

Bellotti, which gave corporations increased First Amendment rights, came from the Burger Court.

Associate Justices Thomas and Alito were in the Citizens United 5-4 majority. If Disney’s case made it to the Supreme Court, the origins of this complaint would have to be considered when contemplating how these two might rule. Chief Justice Roberts’ protests to the contrary, these two justices do not rule as if they are impartial umpires calling balls and strikes.

A decision in Disney’s favor would encourage corporate activism on topics these justices vehemently oppose. It’s difficult to imagine the court’s two most conservative justices ruling for Disney. They are going to find a way to pretzel themselves into a ruling against Disney. For example, Citizens United includes “If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.” Since the law changing RCID neither fines nor jails, Thomas and Alito might convince themselves (if no one else) that Citizens United does not apply. Alternatively, they could find that the state’s actions were the result of a “compelling governmental interest”. Legal scholars would fervently disagree but, bluntly, there would be nothing they could do.

The Court’s three newest conservative justices, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Coney Barrett, hold no allegiance to Citizens United. (In fact, during his confirmation process, there was hope that Gorsuch would overrule Citizens United.) They undoubtedly have observed corporate America’s recent lurch to the left on social issues. These justices almost certainly would find a law to ban “Classroom instruction … on sexual orientation or gender identity … in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate” to be constitutional. A ruling in Disney’s favor would encourage corporate political activism in a direction they would find abhorrent. Even if the three don’t reach their decisions using the same reasoning, it seems likely that at least two and possibly all three would find a way to rule in favor of the State of Florida. They might, for example, rule that the Supreme Court has no authority to interfere with how the State of Florida manages the makeup of special district board members, under the conservative mantra of “state’s rights”. Alternatively, they might return to their Originalism philosophy that “the First Amendment, ‘as originally understood,’ … did not give corporations political speech rights on a par with the rights of individuals.”

Remember, five justices don’t have to agree on a reason to reach their ruling; they just have to agree on the outcome.

Seriously, is a conservative Court that repeatedly has overruled liberal precedent really going to be Disney’s knight in shining armor? Or are they more likely to be the four horsemen of the apocalypse?

This does not mean that the conservative justices definitely would rule against Disney, but there's enough history to make Disney's legal counsel nervous.
Are people really this short sighted? So the Justices will look at this case and decide they disagree with Disney’s politics so will overturn a previous decision? What about the big picture? The case that they will be overturning involved the state of Massachusetts fining banks for expressing their opinion opposing higher taxes on the wealthy (this is something we want????). They cannot allow Government retaliation against liberal ideas without allowing it against conservative ones too. So the day this hypothetical ruling happens Newsome passes laws in CA fining Musk for speaking out on anything not involving Twitter or Tesla. He also issues fines on Walgreens for not falling in line with his politics. Then every red state retaliates with similar actions as FL. Where does it end?

As much as people don’t like the way corporations are behaving this is not the answer to combat it. We have a free market economy. Vote with your wallets. If the masses don’t want companies to have woke agendas or any political agenda then don’t do business with the ones that do. Simple solution. If it’s really the will of the people some smart businessman will figure out that he can make more money leaving politics aside and others will follow.
 

GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
Are people really this short sighted? So the Justices will look at this case and decide they disagree with Disney’s politics so will overturn a previous decision? What about the big picture? The case that they will be overturning involved the state of Massachusetts fining banks for expressing their opinion opposing higher taxes on the wealthy (this is something we want????). They cannot allow Government retaliation against liberal ideas without allowing it against conservative ones too. So the day this hypothetical ruling happens Newsome passes laws in CA fining Musk for speaking out on anything not involving Twitter or Tesla. He also issues fines on Walgreens for not falling in line with his politics. Then every red state retaliates with similar actions as FL. Where does it end?

As much as people don’t like the way corporations are behaving this is not the answer to combat it. We have a free market economy. Vote with your wallets. If the masses don’t want companies to have woke agendas or any political agenda then don’t do business with the ones that do. Simple solution. If it’s really the will of the people some smart businessman will figure out that he can make more money leaving politics aside and others will follow.
It's happening. You are correct money talks, loudly.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
It's happening. You are correct money talks, loudly.
If it’s happening then why the need to overturn a Supreme Court ruling? Why the need for the FL Governor to punish woke corporations? I think the problem these people are seeing is it’s not happening because it actually isn’t the will of the masses. It’s the will of a minority of people.
 

GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
If it’s happening then why the need to overturn a Supreme Court ruling? Why the need for the FL Governor to punish woke corporations? I think the problem these people are seeing is it’s not happening because it actually isn’t the will of the masses. It’s the will of a minority of people.
Eehhhhh No! Though some very outspoken and vocal people very much want it to appear the "masses" are trending in favor of Disney in the specific case of the now defunct RCID, that is not the case. Quite the opposite of what you stated. As for TWDC, the powers that be have moved on and are refocused on their primary function of making money, I mean providing entertainment.
 

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