News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[WDW Pro]

Just in the first 10 minutes

• Ignores that Florida has nuclear power plants
• Kissimmee is nowhere near Walt Disney World, so they’d never had oversight
• Mischaracterizes impact fees, which are a small one time fees. Universal doesn’t pay Orange County impact fees for the North Campus because it’s in Orlando.
• Reedy Creek instituted standards that didn’t exist.
• Confuses the timeline. Walt was dead before the District was created.

So this is all I have been given for "refutations". If there's more, you all will have to let me know.

1. Florida has nuclear plants but new reactors cannot be approved by counties or cities. RCID can do that which is a significant departure from any other local governing body. That's the point in the video.

2. The Kissimmee statement is just the Florida attorney giving an example for the audience using an area that would be easily recognized by the general audience. This attorney has represented Celebration, Universal Studios, etc... he's familiar with Florida geography.

3. I don't understand how the attorney characterizes impact fees. I need specificity in that statement... what did he factually get wrong?

4. Reedy Creek instituted standards.... okay... what standards? And did Reedy Creek institute them or did the FL legislature? Or are they actually given to Lake Buena Vista / Bay Lake? Again, I can't respond to statements that lack specificity.

5. Five is specific and leading to a false conclusion. Yes, Walt had passed away prior to the RCID's charter approval, but Walt was involved in the process of developing the charter that would be approved... as a result of him wanting to do the original vision of EPCOT.


Addendum: if these are the totality of the complaints, and these little quibbles were sufficient for you to dismiss the entire video, then perhaps you just wanted an excuse to dismiss information that would explain what will happen (but goes against your preferred narrative).

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

The Walt Disney Company is going to struggle finding a way into court to take on Florida over this issue. The reason is that RCID is a special district governed by two municipalities that are supposed to be separate from The Walt Disney Company. Therefore, Disney itself is a third party to any claim against damages done to the RCID.

I don’t think anyone is claiming that TWDC would be the primary plaintiff in this litigation. It would be RCID. But TWDC as well as the counties of Osceola and Orange could file amicus briefs given their financial interests if the bonds are dissolved before maturity. Bond holders would also presumably have standing to bring a separate suit directly as had been discussed before.

However, the RCID could file for an injunction and claim that damage has been done by the State of Florida for a variety of possible legal theories. There are two problems with this strategy. A) This could expose the special district to scrutiny of the municipalities that it may not want, and B) such a legal action would likely require approval by said municipalities. It also would put the legal proceedings into Florida courts, which might not be as likely a place for Disney to find a positive ruling.

What kind of scrutiny are we speaking about that’s not publicly known? Would this not place the entire nature of the special district statute under a microscope under scrutiny then as well? If this yields a broader ruling with implications beyond RCID I’d imagine if the courts could conceivably strike down the special district statute in all or in part this would be of paramount concern for FASD as well as the trades representing municipal governments and employees who would get drawn into this fight.

I also am curious how Florida’s burgeoning real estate developers and the state Chamber feel about this since even a modest attempt at “right sizing” the special district framework risks a realistic chance that the baby gets thrown out with the bath water with spillover effects for the 1,000+ special districts in the state.

 

[GoofGoof]

If this were another company besides Disney, would people here be so strongly behind them?

I’m guessing likely not.

And I have no particular dog in this squabble in Florida.

I would. I’ve complained for years about how hard it is to do business in CA and how the government should support business more not hinder it. We all need to work and plans that encourages job growth are always better than whatever this plan is. I think a lot of people are taking for granted how good the economy is right now and how little unemployment there is but it won’t stay like this forever. There’s also the aspect of a state government using the powers given to them by the voters to punish a private business for speaking out with an opposing political position. That’s some dark stuff no matter what the company is.

I think that Disney is also unique in how tied to FL it is or better said how FL’s economy is tied to Disney. This would be the equivalent of the Governor of Michigan passing something to intentionally hurt the auto manufacturers over a political disagreement on an issue unrelated to manufacturing cars. It is really unbelievable to see. Disney shouldn’t be allowed to do whatever they want in the state, but there should be some level of appreciation for how crucial the company is to the state economy.

One final point, this is a Disney board so naturally people are more interested than if it was XYZ company. For me personally I think it’s interesting to discuss and I’m curious to see how it plays out. I’m a DVC owner so I pay taxes to RCID every year so I guess I have some skin in the game, but I’m mostly curious (concerned) as a Disney parks fan that this will result in less Upkeep and less future investment in WDW which would be sad to see. I think cooler heads prevail and this gets worked out with perhaps a compromise where both sides get mostly what they want.

 

[Phil12]

Which is one of the reasons I said Disney should do nothing and let RCID fight this on its boring legal footing - not making this an emotional fight over rights, etc. Save that for later... let the boring financial types win it for you.

I agree. The "sharp pencil boys" are going to resolve this for Disney.

 

[mikejs78]

5. Five is specific and leading to a false conclusion. Yes, Walt had passed away prior to the RCID's charter approval, but Walt was involved in the process of developing the charter that would be approved... as a result of him wanting to do the original vision of EPCOT.

The charter was almost completely created after Walt's death. He didn't have much to do with the drafting of the actual RCID charter, just some of the ideas contained within.

 

[mmascari]

I said or implied any of these?

And obvious hyperbole is obvious.

Umm, you said:

where I have the most pause is RCID itself. It’s a curious case. I get the hows and why’s of it coming about. But at the heart of it, what is it’s purpose in this day and age?

The purpose of RCID in this day and age is the exact same reason we have Town/City, County, and State government instead of just Federal government.

RCID is NOT Disney, it's a government entity. It's defined in law as a government, it acts like a government, and it's constrained like a government. We should not confuse that with the fact that Disney is the only* group that it actually governs.

So, the answer to your question is the exact same as why all those other groups exist in this day and age. It's literally exactly what you asked, scaled up to the logical conclusion if the assumed answer is that it doesn't need to exist.

*Yes, yes, there's the DOD, and something else. It's not literally only Disney, but it might as well be. It's not residential with other people living there. Which is how Disney is able to exert it's control, by being who determines who runs RCID.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Umm, you said:


The purpose of RCID in this day and age is the exact same reason we have Town/City, County, and State government instead of just Federal government.

RCID is NOT Disney, it's a government entity. It's defined in law as a government, it acts like a government, and it's constrained like a government. We should not confuse that with the fact that Disney is the only* group that it actually governs.

So, the answer to your question is the exact same as why all those other groups exist in this day and age. It's literally exactly what you asked, scaled up to the logical conclusion if the assumed answer is that it doesn't need to exist.

*Yes, yes, there's the DOD, and something else. It's not literally only Disney, but it might as well be. It's not residential with other people living there. Which is how Disney is able to exert it's control, by being who determines who runs RCID.

The why is pretty irrelevant, it benefits Disney, it benefits Florida, Win/win.

If Disney was abusing the district I’d understand the arguments that it was designed for a city that never happened and is outdated but since that’s not the case, and it actually benefits everyone, I don’t understand why anyone would want to see it abolished.

 

[WDW Pro]

I don’t think anyone is claiming that TWDC would be the primary plaintiff in this litigation. It would be RCID. But TWDC as well as the counties of Osceola and Orange could file amicus briefs given their financial interests if the bonds are dissolved before maturity. Bond holders would also presumably have standing to bring a separate suit directly as had been discussed before.

What kind of scrutiny are we speaking about that’s not publicly known? Would this not place the entire nature of the special district statute under a microscope under scrutiny then as well? If this yields a broader ruling with implications beyond RCID I’d imagine if the courts could conceivably strike down the special district statute in all or in part this would be of paramount concern for FASD as well as the trades representing municipal governments and employees who would get drawn into this fight.

I also am curious how Florida’s burgeoning real estate developers and the state Chamber feel about this since even a modest attempt at “right sizing” the special district framework risks a realistic chance that the baby gets thrown out with the bath water with spillover effects for the 1,000+ special districts in the state.

Actually, they could be the primary plaintiff, it's just far less likely. Disney could theoretically make a Citizens United style First Amendment complaint claiming they were the directly injured party with RCID as a proxy for the legislature. Is it likely? No, but it's possible.

Scrutiny refers to issues surrounding The City of Bay Lake and The City of Lake Buena Vista. These operate as cities but have little in the way of city-esque qualities other than their governing bodies. Florida could dissolve the cities which would be an even bigger blow to Disney.

 

[GoofGoof]

Personally I tend to side towards the government keeping their noses as far out of businesses as possible.

To me the squabble seems fairly dumb on the surface.

The differences here are really through whether one views it through team red or team blue (I’ve been watching and reading it off in on) I’m sure other view it similarly, but as with all things these days YMMV.

What is so interesting about the current state of politics is the red side was always pro-business. This is one of the most anti-business actions we’ve seen (maybe ever) from a GOP controlled state. States like CA have been known to do things that are preposterous that hurt companies but this is a first in a red state. The culture war is taking priority over the economy which was historically a blue thing. For the GOP economy always trumped social issues. Times have changed but I can tell you for certain there are still old school Republicans who oppose this. They may be called RINOs and attacked by the far right these days.

It’s part of a broader issue in the cultural war imo. I’m also of the opinion it’s not going to be the last one either.

Interesting times and all.

Personally Florida is pretty dumb if they think they come out winners here and a useless battle IMO.

The people of FL won’t be the winners. It’s already been reported that DeSantis has seen an increase in donations as a result of this fight so his campaign is right now a big winner. I’m guessing a large portion of those donations are coming in from out of state. None of this is about benefiting Floridians. It’s about re-election now and eventually a promotion.

 

[flynnibus]

The charter was almost completely created after Walt's death. He didn't have much to do with the drafting of the actual RCID charter, just some of the ideas contained within.

Except Walt Disney was part of the very internal Project Future seminar where the challenges and needs that lead to the strategy of a special district were hammered out. - https://ir.law.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1123&context=lr (see pg 16)

Of course he wouldn't be part of the drafting itself - that's what lawyers are for - but he was part of the premise and executive decision making that lead to that strategy.

 

[WDW Pro]

The charter was almost completely created after Walt's death. He didn't have much to do with the drafting of the actual RCID charter, just some of the ideas contained within.

Walt's overall vision that the Florida Project was a city-planning endeavor was the guiding principle for RCID / Bay Lake / Lake Buena Vista. That vision would not be fully cast away by TWDC until the seventies.

 

[mikejs78]

Walt's overall vision that the Florida Project was a city-planning endeavor was the guiding principle for RCID / Bay Lake / Lake Buena Vista. That vision would not be fully cast away by TWDC until the seventies.

Then why do the RCID charters make no mention of that? They speak directly in regards to tourism.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So this is all I have been given for "refutations". If there's more, you all will have to let me know.

1. Florida has nuclear plants but new reactors cannot be approved by counties or cities. RCID can do that which is a significant departure from any other local governing body. That's the point in the video.

2. The Kissimmee statement is just the Florida attorney giving an example for the audience using an area that would be easily recognized by the general audience. This attorney has represented Celebration, Universal Studios, etc... he's familiar with Florida geography.

3. I don't understand how the attorney characterizes impact fees. I need specificity in that statement... what did he factually get wrong?

4. Reedy Creek instituted standards.... okay... what standards? And did Reedy Creek institute them or did the FL legislature? Or are they actually given to Lake Buena Vista / Bay Lake? Again, I can't respond to statements that lack specificity.

5. Five is specific and leading to a false conclusion. Yes, Walt had passed away prior to the RCID's charter approval, but Walt was involved in the process of developing the charter that would be approved... as a result of him wanting to do the original vision of EPCOT.


Addendum: if these are the totality of the complaints, and these little quibbles were sufficient for you to dismiss the entire video, then perhaps you just wanted an excuse to dismiss information that would explain what will happen (but goes against your preferred narrative).

1. The charter merely allows the District to own and operate a nuclear power facility and to engage in research. Other local governments are not prohibited from owning nuclear power generating facilities as the Orlando Utility Commission has a stake in St. Lucie. Nowhere in the charter does it exempt the District from state regulations regarding nuclear power. Nor does it exempt any companies contracted to provide utility services from state regulations. This all ignores the massive amount of federal regulation regarding nuclear power.
2. The guy claims to be clearing up misconceptions. Saying Osceola County isn’t hard.
3. He claimed Universal pays Orange County impact fees. They do not. They pay Orlando impact fees. They seek permits from Orlando. That cities can and do have different requirements from counties is repeatedly ignored by proponents in their claims of equal and fair treatment.
4. Here’s one example. The EPCOT Building Code was promulgated in 1970. The state of Florida did not require local governments to adopt a building code until 1974. Cities, counties, school districts, etc (over 400 different jurisdictions) had to adopt one of four state approved codes, one of them being the EPCOT Building Code. Following the destruction of Hurricane Andrew, the governor convened a commission to review the building code system eventually resulting in the promulgation of the single Florida Building Code in 2001. The EPCOT Building Code remains in effect and remains more restrictive than the Florida Building Code. The District also introduced land use and water management regulations that largely didn’t exist in the area.
5. The state understood the whole thing as developing tourism. The Character says this and the Supreme Court ruling reaffirms this.

 

[WDW Pro]

Then why do the RCID charters make no mention of that? They speak directly in regards to tourism.

Because RCID is controlled / managed by the "cities" of Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista which were created at the same time. Check their charters

 

[WDW Pro]

1. The charter merely allows the District to own and operate a nuclear power facility and to engage in research. Other local governments are not prohibited from owning nuclear power generating facilities as the Orlando Utility Commission has a stake in St. Lucie. Nowhere in the charter does it exempt the District from state regulations regarding nuclear power. Nor does it exempt any companies contracted to provide utility services from state regulations. This all ignores the massive amount of federal regulation regarding nuclear power.
2. The guy claims to be clearing up misconceptions. Saying Osceola County isn’t hard.

1. I don't know of any other special district in FL with the express ability to own and operate a nuclear power plant. A local government can have a stake in a utility, but owning and operate a nuclear facility would not seem to be the legal perogative of a Florida county.

2. Didn't he specifically talk about Osceola County in reference to its development and the taxes it would enjoy collecting off of the small amount of RCID inside its boundaries that feature commerce?

 

[lazyboy97o]

1. I don't know of any other special district in FL with the express ability to own and operate a nuclear power plant. A local government can have a stake in a utility, but owning and operate a nuclear facility would not seem to be the legal perogative of a Florida county.

2. Didn't he specifically talk about Osceola County in reference to its development and the taxes it would enjoy collecting off of the small amount of RCID inside its boundaries that feature commerce?

Please provide the statute that prohibits counties from operating an electric utility that utilizes electric power generation. It’s only weird because in Florida private companies providing electricity is more the norm than a county owned and operated utility.

I gave up after the first third. Osceola County does enjoy collecting taxes on the portions of Walt Disney World within their boundaries. They collect property taxes and don’t have to provide the services typically associated with those taxes. They also collect any sales and hotel taxes they assess. What they don’t collect are impact fees, which are assessed once on new developments based on their use and size. Disney would have to build millions of square feet of new development in order to pay impact fees anywhere close to what they pay in additional taxes to the District.

Celebration was created in part to generate a tax base for Osceola County. Those properties and business all also pay taxes.

 

[UNCgolf]

If you want to understand the Disney / Reedy Creek / Bay Lake / Lake Buena Vista issue at a much higher level than you'll get on mainstream news, I recommend the following video:



Some of the video content comes from an article we have at TPP via our legal analyst:

1. We should find out at some point in the future who is the underwriter for the Reedy Creek bonds that have liabilities north of a billion dollars. The underwriter is important for how much of this will play out.
2. The Walt Disney Company is going to struggle finding a way into court to take on Florida over this issue. The reason is that RCID is a special district governed by two municipalities that are supposed to be separate from The Walt Disney Company. Therefore, Disney itself is a third party to any claim against damages done to the RCID.
3. However, the RCID could file for an injunction and claim that damage has been done by the State of Florida for a variety of possible legal theories. There are two problems with this strategy. A) This could expose the special district to scrutiny of the municipalities that it may not want, and B) such a legal action would likely require approval by said municipalities. It also would put the legal proceedings into Florida courts, which might not be as likely a place for Disney to find a positive ruling.

That's not a very good source of information at all; that guy is either a bad attorney or acting like one for Youtube based on perusing some of his content. His main issue is that he seems to be coming from an extremely partisan POV on every topic, and that's a really poor way to practice law, at least if you want to do it successfully. You can't make accurate analysis that way.

There's no way to know if he actually specializes in special districts, either -- I could say I specialize in them too. And I am an attorney, but I do not specialize in special districts.

 

[mikejs78]

• The charter merely allows the District to own and operate a nuclear power facility and to engage in research. Other local governments are not prohibited from owning nuclear power generating facilities as the Orlando Utility Commission. Nowhere in the charter does it exempt the District from state regulations regarding nuclear power. Nor does it exempt any companies contracted to provide utility services from state regulations. This all ignores the massive amount of federal regulation regarding nuclear power.
• The guy claims to be clearing up misconceptions. Saying Osceola County isn’t hard.
• He claimed Universal pays Orange County impact fees. They do not. They pay Orlando impact fees. They seek permits from Orlando. That cities can and do have different requirements from counties is repeatedly ignored by proponents in their claims of equal and fair treatment.
• Here’s one example. The EPCOT Building Code was promulgated in 1970. The state of Florida did not require local governments to adopt a building code until 1974. Cities, counties, school districts, etc (over 400 different jurisdictions) had to adopt one of four state approved codes, one of them being the EPCOT Building Code. Following the destruction of Hurricane Andrew, the governor convened a commission to review the building code system eventually resulting in the promulgation of the single Florida Building Code in 2001. The EPCOT Building Code remains in effect and remains more restrictive than the Florida Building Code. The District also introduced land use and water management regulations that largely didn’t exist in the area.
• The state understood the whole thing as developing tourism. The Character says this and the Supreme Court ruling reaffirms this.

A few things I found just watching the video a bit (anyone more versed in FL law please correct me if I made any mistakes below):

• He claims that Reedy Creek was unique among all the special districts in FL in that it was created by a special act of the legislature. Yet in 5 minutes of Googling, I found that the Daytona International Speedway Special District was also created by special act.
• As @lazyboy97o pointed out, he states that Reedy Creek has no safety standards. This is 100% false.
• His whole statement on the separation of Reedy Creek and Disney in regards to standing doesn't necessarily hold up - yes, they are separate distinct entities, but as the largest landholder in Reedy Creek, Disney has rights under FL law in regards to the district, and that's not mentioned. It's indisputable that the removal of Reedy Creek negatively impacts Disney, and Disney could make the case that the dissolution of Reedy Creek was done soley to harm Disney in retaliation for speech.
• His whole comment on how the bond debt can only be serviced by the lands of Reedy Creek if Reedy Creek goes away makes no sense and doesn't seem consistent with FL law that moves bonds to the controlling government entity if the old government entity is dissolved.
• He claims that Disney owns all the property and would be responsible for the debt if Reedy Creek is dissolved - that landowners would be responsible for municipal bonds. Again, that's not consistent with how municipal bonds work anywhere.

 

[Willmark]

I would. I’ve complained for years about how hard it is to do business in CA and how the government should support business more not hinder it. We all need to work and plans that encourages job growth are always better than whatever this plan is. I think a lot of people are taking for granted how good the economy is right now and how little unemployment there is but it won’t stay like this forever. There’s also the aspect of a state government using the powers given to them by the voters to punish a private business for speaking out with an opposing political position. That’s some dark stuff no matter what the company is.

I think that Disney is also unique in how tied to FL it is or better said how FL’s economy is tied to Disney. This would be the equivalent of the Governor of Michigan passing something to intentionally hurt the auto manufacturers over a political disagreement on an issue unrelated to manufacturing cars. It is really unbelievable to see. Disney shouldn’t be allowed to do whatever they want in the state, but there should be some level of appreciation for how crucial the company is to the state economy.

One final point, this is a Disney board so naturally people are more interested than if it was XYZ company. For me personally I think it’s interesting to discuss and I’m curious to see how it plays out. I’m a DVC owner so I pay taxes to RCID every year so I guess I have some skin in the game, but I’m mostly curious (concerned) as a Disney parks fan that this will result in less Upkeep and less future investment in WDW which would be sad to see. I think cooler heads prevail and this gets worked out with perhaps a compromise where both sides get mostly what they want.

Excellent post.

I agree with the “cooler heads”. I think it’s in the interest of both to come to some agreement.

 

[Willmark]

Umm, you said:


The purpose of RCID in this day and age is the exact same reason we have Town/City, County, and State government instead of just Federal government.

RCID is NOT Disney, it's a government entity. It's defined in law as a government, it acts like a government, and it's constrained like a government. We should not confuse that with the fact that Disney is the only* group that it actually governs.

So, the answer to your question is the exact same as why all those other groups exist in this day and age. It's literally exactly what you asked, scaled up to the logical conclusion if the assumed answer is that it doesn't need to exist.

*Yes, yes, there's the DOD, and something else. It's not literally only Disney, but it might as well be. It's not residential with other people living there. Which is how Disney is able to exert it's control, by being who determines who runs RCID.

Right so it’s not what I asked it’s what you thought I was implying; especially in light of you admitting to “scaled up”.

And by the way bad form on your part to only quote part of what I said.

ETA: I see you did it twice in two separate posts, didn’t catch it the first time.