News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

mikejs78

Premium Member
The answer is simply to strip the RCID of all its powers except for the ability to levy a property tax.

Nope. I think you missed the point that one of the stipulations in the bond contracts is that the district will continue to have the ability to build infrastructure, and continue to have the ability to float bonds. Take that away and the bond contracts are in default.

In fact, the FL legislature, back in 1967, guaranteed this to all bondholders.

The State of Florida pledges to the holders of any bonds issued under this Act that it will not limit or alter the rights of the District to own, acquire, construct, reconstruct, improve, maintain, operate or furnish the projects or to levy and collect the taxes, assessments, rentals, rates, fees, tolls, fares and other charges provided for herein … until all such bonds together with interest thereon, and all costs and expenses in connection with any action or proceeding by or on behalf of such holders, are fully met and discharged.
 

peter11435

Well-Known Member
No, it can't. Orange county doesnt have the same taxing ability as Reedy Creek. They are limited to a 10% rate by the FL Constitution. Reedy Creek as a special district doesn't have such a limitation, which was a factor in the bond agreements.
Which is itself another of the many issues with the current set up. The district as it exists today assesses a tax rate far higher than they would be legally allowed to if not for it having previously been approved by those in the district. But now those in the district have no say in how those taxes are managed or spent and the district has zero accountability to those in the district.
 
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Twirlnhurl

Well-Known Member
-The Anaheim Resort District has thousands of rooms and 90 hotels. While it’s true Disneyland Resort is relatively more reliant on local Californians, it would be unfair to characterize it as anything other than a resort with regional and international pull. Lots of people come and stay in Anaheim. But I agree aggressive increases of hotel tax rates to 15% would not beneficial or needed. That's why I suggested 9%. Though... Anaheim manages to fund 63% of their General Fund on the proceeds of the various taxes they levy against the Anaheim Resort District. It's not inconceivable that the two counties might start wanting a bigger piece of the theme park pie. The theme park industry has been given extreme latitude to operate with minimal taxation. And many of the taxes that are levied tend to be put right back into the tourism industry.
Just because it is conceivable that Orlando's theme parks could survive higher levels of taxation, doesn't mean that they should be subject to it. RCID allowed Disney to charge itself a higher tax rate to get better infrastructure for itself. But I a not aware of any theory of good governance that suggests that local governments should extract the maximum rents from their constituents. Even if that was the will of the people (I don't think it is) doesn't make it right or good governance.

Universal took their proposal to the regional planning authorities and got approval. A regional planning authority that is accountable to voters in the county. That’s something Disney hasn’t had to do since the Lyndon Johnson administration. Imagine if Walt Disney World had to get development approval for changes to its plan like Disneyland did or Universal did? It’s a nice thought.
The process that Universal goes through to get planning permission from Orlando or Orange County has very little in common with that of Disneyland, because the jurisdictions Universal has to work with have a much better framework for evaluating the the projects of their constituents.

(The following is a somewhat off-topic rant, so maybe disregard?) In general, public engagement for planning is very unproductive. The public rarely has any valuable input. Usually you don't get any comments of substance from the public until a specific design is presented.

But land use regulation cannot be determined ad-hoc for each individual project (by definition, that wouldn't be planning). In some cases, property owners may choose to enter into an agreement to let a specific party have that kind of input (like when I purchased a home in a deed-restricted development granting the right to let the HOA make arbitrary rules about how I use my property). But city or county planning don't work that way.

Public engagement for development review by definition cannot be representative of the public--the project will be built in the future, impacting future neighbors--so public engagement is more like arbitrary discussion with busybodies.

The idea that the people who show up at the meetings today are representative of the public today is laughable--public engagement engages people with a weird hobby of going to public meetings with their free time, not a representative sample. But even if it was possible for you to engage with the public in a representative way, it would be representative of the people here today, not the people who will be here in 5 to 10 years when the project is built.

Every week, the population of greater Orlando increases by over 1,000 new people. Are you really going to ask people in Ohio, New Jersey, and Columbia who haven't even decided that they want to live here to have a say?

So let's not fetishize public engagement as it relates to planning. Urban planners do valuable work determining the impacts to infrastructure, the environment, and neighboring property owners. Public engagement rarely adds constructively to that process.

(End rant. But feel free to update your opinion of everything I say based on the above. I know that my perspective is unpopular.)

The plan was developed and endorsed with cooperation from Sea World, the local chamber of commerce, the Mayor of Orlando, hotels in the area, and of course final approval fell to Orange County. You’re right it was self-serving for Universal Orlando to agitate for the change. But by partnering with these community partners they turned it into a win for all those stakeholders. Even Brightline eventually joined in the project and threw its support behind the new route. This district was created with a specific mission. Build and maintain a train station. A train station that will help Universal, but that also will add value to all those stakeholders.
I am not certain that it added value to Brightline. Personally, I believe it dramatically reduced the odds that Brightline will ever provide service beyond MCO. It certainly increased the required taxpayer contribution to the required infrastructure, if it were ever to happen. But I hope I am wrong and it still eventually gets built.

It’s curious about Sunrail. It would be a shame if they didn’t use the infrastructure they’re building. I’ll watch for further developments. It would be a very expensive and empty station if they don’t make use of it.
Just because Sunrail might not use the station doesn't mean that Brightline won't. A lot of people get hung up on the idea that Brightline is an intercity-service provider. This is true, but it is not a requirement for all future services. Brightline can choose to offer whatever service they want to. So if they wanted to provide a frequent commuter transit service, the only thing that would get in their way is the signaling and equipment, which they control.

I contrast all of the above with Disney’s infrastructure projects within Walt Disney World that help only Disney. Governments are created to help the communities they reside in. Picking up the bill for Disney’s CapEx is not a government function.
If Disney were to sell off Disney Springs to each of the individual operating participants, Animal Kingdom to Sea World Parks and Entertainment, Hollywood Studios to Comcast, Magic Kingdom to OLC, Epcot to Six Flags, and auction off each resort so some were owned by Marriott, Hilton, Harris Rosen, and others, would anything the RCID has built and maintained be something a local government wouldn't be happy to support and maintain from property taxes from this diverse ownership group?

Within its Jurisdiction, RCID has built quality infrastructure not very different from what you would expect if it were controlled by dozens of operators. At the end of the day, RCID operates urban infrastructure to serve the uses in its district. I don't know what you would expect to be different or more equitable to the region if it were arranged differently.
 

mkt

Disney's Favorite Scumbag™
Premium Member
I looked at the City of Lake Buena Vista's website. This was the picture that popped up on their homepage:
View attachment 758288

This beautiful picture was exactly what Walt Disney had in mind. Someone should make a T-Shirt "We were promised the city of tomorrow and all we got were three parking garages!" 🤣

After appreciating the beauty of those monuments to civic virtue, I then looked at the City of Lake Buena Vista's budget. I wanted to see how much the city spends on parks, pools, community programs, and other things things that enhance the lives of its citizens. What I found was puzzling. Instead of spending being focused on the community, I found budgetary priorities better suited for a theme park resort complex. Disney should feel glad that their the city's voting constituent's interests are so aligned with the interests of the company.

So this warrants eliminating their representation on a district level?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The process that Universal goes through to get planning permission from Orlando or Orange County has very little in common with that of Disneyland, because the jurisdictions Universal has to work with have a much better framework for evaluating the the projects of their constituents.
Universal Orlando Resort and Disneyland Resort actually are pretty similar. Both are essentially a version of a planned development where the pro poetry owner is free to develop the property. The Eastern Gateway project had to go through development review because it was new property outside of Disney’s holdings when the zoning for the Disneyland Resort was established. There was no development review of subsequent projects like Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway or the new Disneyland Hotel tower because Disney is free to do theme park resort stuff largely as they desire. Even part of Disney’s argument for the Eastern Gateway was the threat of all of the additional traffic to be caused by Galaxy’s Edge which was expected to draw huge crowds and didn’t need development review.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Universal Orlando Resort and Disneyland Resort actually are pretty similar. Both are essentially a version of a planned development where the pro poetry owner is free to develop the property. The Eastern Gateway project had to go through development review because it was new property outside of Disney’s holdings when the zoning for the Disneyland Resort was established. There was no development review of subsequent projects like Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway or the new Disneyland Hotel tower because Disney is free to do theme park resort stuff largely as they desire. Even part of Disney’s argument for the Eastern Gateway was the threat of all of the additional traffic to be caused by Galaxy’s Edge which was expected to draw huge crowds and didn’t need development review.

So if they became anti-poetry, they'd no longer be allowed to develop?
 

Twirlnhurl

Well-Known Member
Universal Orlando Resort and Disneyland Resort actually are pretty similar. Both are essentially a version of a planned development where the pro poetry owner is free to develop the property. The Eastern Gateway project had to go through development review because it was new property outside of Disney’s holdings when the zoning for the Disneyland Resort was established.
I was thinking more about Disneyland Forward, which is including a lot more public outreach than Universal needed to do to entitle their South campus with Orange County. But perhaps I am misunderstanding the intent of the Disneyland Forward effort?
 

WoundedDreamer

Well-Known Member
Fair enough.

I'll take that as a signal to step back from this thread for now. I've pretty much stated my opinions and additional points would just be beating a dead horse. I do predict Disney's demise in the courts. They will get clobbered. But other than that, I think I've said my peace.
Adieu
 

peter11435

Well-Known Member
Fair enough.

I'll take that as a signal to step back from this thread for now. I've pretty much stated my opinions and additional points would just be beating a dead horse. I do predict Disney's demise in the courts. They will get clobbered. But other than that, I think I've said my peace.
Adieu
Considering your novel earlier suggested numerous illegal actions I don’t think anyone should place much importance on your legal predictions.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I was thinking more about Disneyland Forward, which is including a lot more public outreach than Universal needed to do to entitle their South campus with Orange County. But perhaps I am misunderstanding the intent of the Disneyland Forward effort?
Disneyland Forward is basically about expanding the area where to Disney has more free reign. One difference too is that the Disneyland Resort and surrounding Anaheim Resort District are specific, uniquely crafted zoning overlay areas whereas both portions of Universal Orlando Resort utilize pre-existing planned development zoning categories.

You are correct though that Disney is having to do much more to get their zoning approval. One of things I’ve notice in this conversation and others is that a lot of people who think a situation is not democratic enough tend to do so because processes, organization and outcomes are different. This sort of flies in the face of plurality which should result in different processes and outcomes in different localities. The people of Orange County, Florida don’t seem as concerned about development of the attractions area as the people of Anaheim.

If anything, the biggest “controversies” over proposed development in the past decade or so have been manufactured by Universal. Remember when Universal created a phony citizens group to oppose the Polercoaster? That group raised suspicion and the result was the county revealing that Universal was not only behind the group but also was buying up a bunch of land that they wanted rezoned. More recently Universal was also [more openly] behind the opposition to Brightline receiving permission to build along FL-417.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
After appreciating the beauty of those monuments to civic virtue, I then looked at the City of Lake Buena Vista's budget. I wanted to see how much the city spends on parks, pools, community programs, and other things things that enhance the lives of its citizens. What I found was puzzling. Instead of spending being focused on the community, I found budgetary priorities better suited for a theme park resort complex. Disney should feel glad that their the city's voting constituent's interests are so aligned with the interests of the company.
Exactly how large a budget did you expect to see for "parks, pools, community programs, and other things things" for a city with a population of 24?

The city could buy every resident, all 24 of them across all ages including kids, season passes to Disney Water Parks for less than it would cost to maintain one plot of grass with a playground and a picnic gazebo. For that matter, they could buy them each a Disney Incredi-Pass too, and it would still be more fiscally responsible than maintaining a community pool, plot of grass park, or other recreation programs.

This falls under the same umbrella as things that are concerned with the "taxpayers of RCID", the "citizens of Lake Buena Vista" being the concern that they're being treated unfairly. It's a statement designed to convey that someone who is just like the reader and happens to live in the jurisdiction is getting a poor deal because of big bad Disney taking advantage of them. When that's just not true. There isn't some mystery population that lives within the district or the two cities. There are only entities that entered into it knowing full well how it was structured, and there is amazingly few of them.

It is a misdirection designed to deceive and create a false message that sounds true.
 

mkt

Disney's Favorite Scumbag™
Premium Member
I noticed this yesterday at Epcot. They have new elevator certificates.

IMG_1683.jpeg


Also saw a handful of these beauties in the parking lot.



IMG_1663.jpeg
 

mkt

Disney's Favorite Scumbag™
Premium Member
I wonder if the new parking and security contracts are in force, because the most recent group of parking and non-Disney security employees I’ve encountered at Disney Springs are terrible and give me serious parking at the courthouse vibes.
 

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