Rededication-What does it mean?

[EPCOT Explorer]

Enderikari,that was just plain rude and pompous.If you don't have anything nice to post don't post at all.

As I stated in my last post, I'm still learning in Epcot and I think we can tell I'm having fun. It may not be in the same way as it was in 1982, but I'm still learning. And I can bet you, if I'm learning something, I'm sure others are, who either may realize it or not. And once again, I'm sorry if you can't see that learning is indeed taking place. It's just not as preachy as it was in the 80s. (Something they also learned with AK after it was built too. People don't like to be preached to on vacation. They like enjoyment and entertainment. Then if you mix in a little education they don't mind it so much. That's why I think Epcot now is working so well and why AK is becoming better and better as years go by.)

I'm glad to hear that Epcot is still edutaining.

Sorry but I disagree here strongly. Yes, there may be some who whine about the rides that no longer exist, but there are others who praise them for what they were and what they meant to Epcot Center. Not all change is good change. There are some good things that have happened to Epcot (Soarin' for example) and some not so good things (Imagination, Test Track).



Fine, that's your opinion, but there are MANY people who did not find the original Epcot boring in the least. It was a place of science and imagination. Just because YOU don't remember them, doesn't mean that the attractions didn't mean anything to others.

Thanks for you post.This is exactly why I started the topic.

 

[Enderikari]

Enderikari,that was just plain rude and pompous.If you don't have anything nice to post don't post at all.

Rude? Perhaps, but provoked.
Pompous? Doubtful, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I could make a pretty good case that the original post is pretty pompous as well, since it presupposes that the Epcot of today is not as good as the EPCOT of 20 years ago. That's kind of an insult to the 59,000 cast members, and hundreds of thousands of former cast members who busted their humps bringing that to you every day.

But you want a pretty good example of how the world viewed Epcot, even as a parody? Remember the Simpson's episode where they went to EFCOT? Classic line from that Episode

D'oh, its even boring from the plane

Or Lisa's comment about how an attraction was how the people from 1970 envisioned how 1985 would look?

Hehe, good times

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Rude? Perhaps, but provoked.
That's kind of an insult to the 59,000 cast members, and hundreds of thousands of former cast members who busted their humps bringing that to you every day.

Never said there was something wrong with the service,just the content.

 

[cm1988]

It's a business

Talk is cheap. Capital improvements require pro formas, priortization and budgeteering. A visionary leader would move all that along, but most leaders just give speeches and buy the occasional box of doughnuts.

 

[jmvd20]

Pompous? Doubtful, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Good thing because my opinion is that todays Epcot is nowhere near as entertaining as EPCOT circa 1994...

 

[MichWolv]

I think character rides like The Seas with Nemo will stick around for a long time. MK is basically all character rides.

EPCOT is meant to have "edutainment" rides and attractions. So they need to change more frequently. I don't think they could have updated Horizons enough for it to still be valid.

EPCOT just plain HAS to change all the time, improving and innovating. I think we ALL can agree changing Imagination was a step backwards, tho.

Future World needs to change alot, and has, I think, actually changed too much. World Showcase needs to change only a little to keep up, but hasn't changed enough, in my opinion (although the Canada update is a move in the right direction).

I do agree that the Nemo-ization of the Living Seas has increased the life of that pavilion. A problem I can see with it is that the focus is now very much away from the big acquarium, and on the "fun" of chasing Nemo and talking to Crush. Both of those attractions, by the way, are amongst my "must-sees" at Epcot now, but I hope that they find a way in the near future to balance things out at the Seas and remind people of the real live sea creatures that are there.

Imagination killed (or at least came close to killing) the imageworks and the original ride when neither was necessary.

World of Motion and Horizons were, perhaps, ripe for replacement (although I loved them both, and wish they were still around), but replacing them with rides that are mostly about thrills, and little about enrichment was a huge change. Again, I like Mission:Space and Test Track, and ride them all the time, but something closer to the original direction would have felt better to me.

On the other hand, World Showcase has neither added a new pavilion nor a major ride since Norway. And the new stuff on the original attractions is all film updates (The Caballeros are only on film, the China and Canada movies are updates, albeit good ones, the AA has gotten some updates to ending montage). No need to make huge changes, as "Germany" is still as relevant today as it was in 1982, a few more updates might be good.

 

[Enderikari]

Good thing because my opinion is that todays Epcot is nowhere near as entertaining as EPCOT circa 1994...

And if you can get 14 million of your Disney-going friends to tell that to Disney, and to not go to Epcot until your demands are met, maybe you can have it back.

 

[Now Is The Time]

Tell me sir, have you ever walked through the Disney Archives in California. Spent hours upon hours researching for great Disney tidbits at the Library and Research Center? Spoken with the decision-makers about why certain decisions have been made?

What? You haven't?

I have.

Boy I owe you an apology.. and you've been selling us in the forums short this whole time, you sneaky little guy. Here you had us thinking that you simply hung the moon when it comes to Disney knowledge but you mean to tell us you've spent hours at the Research Center and spoken with decision makers?! I bow before you, repeatedly. Everyone please, a round of applause for Enderikari. We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

:sohappy:

 

[Enderikari]

So, where does you basis of knowledge come from, internet tough guy? Besides the whine, and the cheese associated with a number of your posts, you never seem to offer any real information.

Let me guess, you visited WDW a bunch of times, probably around a dozen. You weren't really old enough to remember Horizons, but jumped on the internet "BeST. AttraCTion. EVaR!" bandwagon because it made you feel like you belonged. You also probably hate Michael Eisner with a baseless passion, along with Michael Ovitz and Jeffrey Katzenberg. I'm gonna further guess that you think Walt Disney was some sort of super-human that could possibly do no wrong, and all of his (single-handedly made) decisions were flawless.

Study at the altar of Al Lutz, Jim Hill, and Kevin Yee? All self-aggrandizing demagogues with ne'er-do-well potential? Deathly afraid of change, but most importantly, worried that your opinion may not be the only one that matters?

Even if none of these statements are true concerning you, NOW IS THE TIME, you must understand that these are the pervading feelings of much of the board-going public. But a Walt Disney World, which catered only to the internet fan forum posting guest, would be closed faster than Carrie: The Broadway Musical.

Let me try and set the record straight, because I love Walt Disney World. No decision (like the ones to remove such 'staid' classics at Horizons, or World of Boredom) is made without a mountain of paperwork, studies, debate and consideration as to what would be a bigger guest draw. Problem is, people tend to blind themselves out of hatred towards the new. Anyone who can look you in the eye and say there is no longer educational value in the Seas with Nemo and Friends, or Mission: Space, or Gran Fiesta Tour, or any number attractions which seem to be the whipping boys around here, is deliberately trying to fool themselves because they are so set in their stubborn false beliefs. They want so desperately to cling to the past, that they literally start making stuff up to blame on the new attractions.


I'm done. I'm finished with you, and this whole conversation. I don't care what insults you whip at me, I will not be clicking on the link that goes to this topic anymore, nor any other time I see you post, Time. I am as much to blame as anyone else, but I am ending this ing contest. I have tried to get you to see reality, and , its really not worth getting my blood pressure up anymore. If people want to believe that Epcot is no longer educational, then they can lie to themselves all they want, I'll be queuing up at American Adventure.

Good night everyone, and I leave you with the immortal words of Anton Ego

In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new.

 

[jmvd20]

And if you can get 14 million of your Disney-going friends to tell that to Disney, and to not go to Epcot until your demands are met, maybe you can have it back.

What demands did I have?

Where did I demand anything?

I stated my opinion which differs from yours...

I do not care if 14 million people disagree with me, I could also care less if the Disney office of records management conducted a guest survey and 99% of the respondents disagree as well. My opinion is my opinion and nothing anyone else can say will change it.

The problem with this entire discussion is that it is completely subjective. This is not a black and white issue no matter how much people may want it to be, and that goes for both sides (myself included).

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

So, where does you basis of knowledge come from, internet tough guy? Besides the whine, and the cheese associated with a number of your posts, you never seem to offer any real information.

Let me guess, you visited WDW a bunch of times, probably around a dozen. You weren't really old enough to remember Horizons, but jumped on the internet "BeST. AttraCTion. EVaR!" bandwagon because it made you feel like you belonged. You also probably hate Michael Eisner with a baseless passion, along with Michael Ovitz and Jeffrey Katzenberg. I'm gonna further guess that you think Walt Disney was some sort of super-human that could possibly do no wrong, and all of his (single-handedly made) decisions were flawless.

Study at the altar of Al Lutz, Jim Hill, and Kevin Yee? All self-aggrandizing demagogues with ne'er-do-well potential? Deathly afraid of change, but most importantly, worried that your opinion may not be the only one that matters?

Even if none of these statements are true concerning you, NOW IS THE TIME, you must understand that these are the pervading feelings of much of the board-going public. But a Walt Disney World, which catered only to the internet fan forum posting guest, would be closed faster than Carrie: The Broadway Musical.

Let me try and set the record straight, because I love Walt Disney World. No decision (like the ones to remove such 'staid' classics at Horizons, or World of Boredom) is made without a mountain of paperwork, studies, debate and consideration as to what would be a bigger guest draw. Problem is, people tend to blind themselves out of hatred towards the new. Anyone who can look you in the eye and say there is no longer educational value in the Seas with Nemo and Friends, or Mission: Space, or Gran Fiesta Tour, or any number attractions which seem to be the whipping boys around here, is deliberately trying to fool themselves because they are so set in their stubborn false beliefs. They want so desperately to cling to the past, that they literally start making stuff up to blame on the new attractions.


I'm done. I'm finished with you, and this whole conversation. I don't care what insults you whip at me, I will not be clicking on the link that goes to this topic anymore, nor any other time I see you post, Time. I am as much to blame as anyone else, but I am ending this ing contest. I have tried to get you to see reality, and , its really not worth getting my blood pressure up anymore. If people want to believe that Epcot is no longer educational, then they can lie to themselves all they want, I'll be queuing up at American Adventure.

Good night everyone, and I leave you with the immortal words of Anton Ego

Thanks for spreading the joy...No need to over-react.It's just a small issue we've been discussing.Time even gave you a complement of your Disney past!*Oye Vay!*

:hammer:

Anyhoo,great posts everyone!Thanks for keeping such a hot topic *mildly* civil.

 

[jakeman]

First, nibbles and Enderi, your points are well taken and I agree with them almost completely.

Secondly, there is no way to know if X is more popular than Y without some serious number crunching with numbers that we don't have. Just as the tip of the iceberg, you would need to factor the daily attendance of X attraction as a percentage of the total park attendance from date A to date B, and then the same for Y with dates C to date D. Additionally you would need to factor out (or in?) the amount of people attrubited to attendance solely for attractions X and Y. And thats just the start. Nosebleed anyone?

So until someone can do this all of this attraction vs. attraction speculation is just poorly formed opinion.

I am not as eloquent at nibbles nor as passionate as Endari so please forgive what is lost in the translation of the interwebz.

What irks me the most about the old vs. new debate is the sense of piousness that is conveyed when referring to old attractions. The amount of post that have a sense of looking down the nose at other opinions other than old is good and new is bad is staggering. This forum really needs its own section for retired attractions so folks can avoid topics like this easily. I know, I know, don't click if you don't want to read...

I personally have been told that " don't get it" regarding Horizons. I do get it. I experienced the attraction and I get that it is boring to me. Mission: Space is a superior attraction to me. People like Horizons, I get it. People also like liver pudding. Building the pedistal of Horizons, WoM, Mr. Toad here is the equivalent of complaining about liver pudding on the Hickory Ham website. Sure it fits (meat!) and you have valid points, but really, whats the purpose.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

*cough* well....

If Enderikari really did gain or can gain access to various documents related to Disney's various theme park attendance, among other things, the way Enderikari comes across online is to the likes of a 16 year old girl who didn't get her driver's license on her first try and is suffering from PMS and God-only knows what else.

For someone to come on these boards and declare that they truly have the facts yet cannot provide a single specific fact or figure other than their own OPINION for 99.9% percent of the time, I am shocked someone with such immature, and demeaning stature could know so many higher ups or access to such records in the Disney company.

My evidence for the EPCOT theme, the EPCOT Center message, and purpose of the park all come from the early publications, and 8mm and/or 16mm footage and later day vhs tapes concerning EPCOT Center in its early years.

I am personally glad that EPCOT...the city....was never built. I won't get into that, but I'll just simply say I'm glad his city of tomorrow was never built (for a variety of reasons).


EPCOT Center....or what finally became it...to me was a great challenge for the Disney company that they initially accomplished.

How can this be an opinion? Walt Disney did in fact seperate himself throughout his career and that of his company from the famous and now-deemed classic animated movies. He and his Imagineers wanted to show that the Disney company was creative and "magical" on other ways. Many of his rides and shows at Disneyland, and most certainly at the world's fair had no refrence to Disney shows and movies, expect for a few at Disneyland.

The only classic Disney refrence that came to the world's fair was meet and greet characters such as snow white, alice in wonderland among others. And opinion wise...that's fine with me! It is a branding and message the disney company has for children, familes, etc....but the innovative, creative, and unique attractions created for disneyland and the world's fair allowed people of all ages to explore a different realm, a more scientific realm and industrial aspect that Walt Disney was pushing for his company.

He was out to make a buck, but damn it all he used alot of talent, and tactics to do it well....and not heavily commercialized and cheap like done in many ways today with the Disney company.

So many of his attractions are just what the EPCOT Center message is all about....entertain...inform...inspire.

That's why I can safely say the children of the 1950s and 60s....not prone to 10 minute attention spans, video games, and over 100 channels of television, could easily understand and appreciate the message of EPCOT Center, especially had EPCOT Center opened in the atomic and space age of the late 50s and early to mid 60s.

EPCOT Center simply dared to be different.

But the amount of detail, time, effort, and money made the park justify what it was initially.

I don't mind change....it's a matter of what changes. For example I like the 1994 makeover of tomorrowland....HOWEVER look how we still have a peoplemover and rocket jets on top of the peoplemover station...unlike at Disneyland.

That's where change becomes good (for me), while still preserving the integrity and message of the past. i.e. peoplemover through tomorrowland and a dumbo ride on top of the station for an aerial view.

EPCOT Center had to change. The public by then was not easily entertained by scientific and educational presentations. These people were on vacation, they wanted more "fun".

The Universe of Energy had a VERY dry and scientific presentation....however it used amazing show technology. This show technology was going to be reused in the concepts for Ellen's Energy Adventure, but ultimately never did.

This gets a minus in my book. Now we have an attraction...Ellen's Energy Adventure that is over 10 years old....outdated....and not serious enough to the impending energy crisis we are facing in 2007 and beyond....nor does the show use the technology the 1982 version had that made the even boring scientific version somewhat worthwile.

Then you have wonders of life....sure it came in 1989....but it grew outdated quickly. Now it sits empty and forgotten for most of the time. It's a mess, and a scar on the lack of "what do we do now" ideals that most, but not all Disney management asks. This pavilion would have either been demolished, or turned into a new year round exhibit had wonders of life closed back in the early to mid 90s.

Horizons...a complex ride that WAS the meaning of EPCOT Center, wasn't outdated in what it liked to show...underwater cities, etc....it was the show sets themselves.....jumpsuits orange and yellow 80s colors...projector screens with scratchy old 35mm film...etc. Had Horizons been saved, updated, and gone on with a new sponsor...I would have been all for that. See I don't want to see Horizons (1983) preserved forever, I want the message, the integrity of the ride updated for today. This is what they're doing with SSE and I am all for it!

I don't ever recall, and would love to see evidence that Disney formally said there was a sinkhole problem with Horizons. If there was such a problem the ride never would have reopened for the press event that was held for it in 1999.

In a 1995/6 guide to walt disney world, it states that Horizons had already closed and concepts for a new attraction were in the works to replace it.

Horizons did close in 1994 after GE left....it only reopened on spare time because WoM and UoE were down for rehab.

Sinkhole my @$$

Had the wonders of life been killed off earlier, and Mission: Space taken its spot, allowing a refurbed and updated Horizons to exist...oh my god....what a wonderful place indeed.

World of Motion was one of EPCOT Center's problems...there were too many omnimover rides...of the five ones in future world...world of motion was just a comical version of spaceship earth with a slapped on transporation theme....the only thing intruiging about the ending was the city of the future...everything else was projection screens.

The transcenter...now inside track....still entertains, informs, and inspires...good god most of it IS the transcenter layout and showspace.

The Odyssey Restaurant is a sad story. I remember eating there when it was open all the time, enjoying the food, the view, usually seeing a show.

Imagination was a screw up beyond belief. Here was an attraction that celebrated the mind, creativity, and art, and under a mere technicality with Kodak, the ride needing to be changed by a contract, the rehab was so screwed up, it resulted in a updated version so controversial, now the ride is in its third version.

The closed Imageworks and lame Kim Possible tie-in *Disney now inappropriately tieing television and unique theme park attractions together* creates an odd interaction.

The heavily outdated Honey I killed off the Dreamfinder needs a new film.

The Land was a good overhaul.

The Seas could have been done much more better blended between EPCOT Center ideals and modern Epcot.

How are the seacabs not fun? What about the hydrolators? Kids suddenly don't like them?

The seas could have retained its look, its exterior, its mural, with a nemo overlay in the queue, a nemo film in the remaining movie theater about exploring the seas with nemo in friends in seabase alpha...then riding the hydrolators to the sea cabs then into seabase alpha where you could then find turtle talk, etc.

Spaceship Earth 2007 and project tomorrow and various exhibits in Innoventions continue to show how the EPCOT Center message can be adjusted to the audiences of today.

Perhaps thinking that the EPCOT Center entrance with rows of flower beds, plants, and palm trees is better than the current look is an opinion....however if you were to show every single guest entering that park what the original entrance looked like compared to the current one, I can bet you well over 95% of guests would be in favor of the original entrance...as well as the fountains, ponds, and cool color schemes that used to dot futureworld.

I respect EPCOT Center for what it meant and what it was. However how can I not disagree with Kevin Yee that the quality has dropped. A half-______ open wonders of life, a usually closed Odyssey...a shuttered image works, etc, etc

It never would have happened until the "Disney decade" of 1990-1999 and beyond.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

All that writing made me hungry. I need a churro. :lol:

 

[jakeman]

First off, I would like to say that is a very well written post and while I may not agree and will agrue below, I appreciate and respect your opinion and the way it is communicated. Now on to the trolling!:ROFLOL:

My evidence for the EPCOT theme, the EPCOT Center message, and purpose of the park all come from the early publications, and 8mm and/or 16mm footage and later day vhs tapes concerning EPCOT Center in its early years.

This is by no means directed solely at you, because I know this is going to be harsh, but the purpose of a theme park is to make a company money. Anything above that is marketing to entice people to come. Magic Kingdom is marketed towards magic and fantasy, DHS is to be part of the movies, Animal Kingdom is for, well Animals. The theme you stated may be true, but it is nothing more than marketing and in my opinion, should not be taken any more seriously than the Keebler Elves.

I am personally glad that EPCOT...the city....was never built. I won't get into that, but I'll just simply say I'm glad his city of tomorrow was never built (for a variety of reasons).

Overt socialism, with a touch of communism? :lookaroun:ROFLOL:

I don't ever recall, and would love to see evidence that Disney formally said there was a sinkhole problem with Horizons. If there was such a problem the ride never would have reopened for the press event that was held for it in 1999.

Regardless of the reason, Disney doesn't owe any of us a valid explantion, and by this point, would anyone believe them?

Spaceship Earth 2007 and project tomorrow ... continue to show how the EPCOT Center message can be adjusted to the audiences of today.

I edited out the Innoventions part, because dammit the internet isn't for agreeing! I am withholding my opinion of the new SSE until I see. I'm not sure how you can support this arguement without first seeing the complete project.

Perhaps thinking that the EPCOT Center entrance with rows of flower beds, plants, and palm trees is better than the current look is an opinion....however if you were to show every single guest entering that park what the original entrance looked like compared to the current one, I can bet you well over 95% of guests would be in favor of the original entrance...as well as the fountains, ponds, and cool color schemes that used to dot futureworld.

First that still makes it an opinion, and, second, I bet that 95% of people wouldn't care until they are asked.

I guess when it comes down to it, it varies from person to person how seriously the marketed "message" of Epcot is taken.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

Jakeman,

Completely agree with the marketing. That's all it really comes down to. It appears though to me that EPCOT Center in relation to its marketing was in key and touch with a universal message the park was trying to convey and since the 90s the current state of the park has tried to say something of the park's original message but has become broken in execution of that message via rides, shows, and attractions.

As for the entrance to the park, while I agree that it is an opinion; the first timers to Epcot will have no clue what the entrance looked like, and why should they care, and though I have only done this experiment with only a handful a people....my friends that go to Epcot show me a photo of them at the park's entrance and then I show them what the entance used to look likem and every single one so far has told me they rather had their picture taken in the old entrance.

I feel that the guests of today...especially the first timers....while unaware of what used to be...are still being cheated, not entirely, as I still feel WDW is a great place, but still somehow cheated from the "sense" and cosmetics of EPCOT Center....not so much for the rides, but for the way the park was presented in terms of architecture, design, theme, etc.

 

[jakeman]

Jakeman,

Completely agree with the marketing. That's all it really comes down to. It appears though to me that EPCOT Center in relation to its marketing was in key and touch with a universal message the park was trying to convey and since the 90s the current state of the park has tried to say something of the park's original message but has become broken in execution of that message via rides, shows, and attractions.

As for the entrance to the park, while I agree that it is an opinion; the first timers to Epcot will have no clue what the entrance looked like, and why should they care, and though I have only done this experiment with only a handful a people....my friends that go to Epcot show me a photo of them at the park's entrance and then I show them what the entance used to look likem and every single one so far has told me they rather had their picture taken in the old entrance.

I feel that the guests of today...especially the first timers....while unaware of what used to be...are still being cheated, not entirely, as I still feel WDW is a great place, but still somehow cheated from the "sense" and cosmetics of EPCOT Center....not so much for the rides, but for the way the park was presented in terms of architecture, design, theme, etc.

I can definately get behind your passion about the marketing of Epcot as long as it is acknowledged as just marketing. Some folk I have my doubts that they can see that.

I can understand all of this, especially regarding the cosmetic aspects of Epcot. Not neccessarily the entrance but Epcot as a whole it is definately lacking in its past uniformity (I'm looking at you giant Test Track banners..)

 

[Now Is The Time]

So, where does you basis of knowledge come from, internet tough guy? Besides the whine, and the cheese associated with a number of your posts, you never seem to offer any real information.

Let me guess, you visited WDW a bunch of times, probably around a dozen. You weren't really old enough to remember Horizons, but jumped on the internet "BeST. AttraCTion. EVaR!" bandwagon because it made you feel like you belonged. You also probably hate Michael Eisner with a baseless passion, along with Michael Ovitz and Jeffrey Katzenberg. I'm gonna further guess that you think Walt Disney was some sort of super-human that could possibly do no wrong, and all of his (single-handedly made) decisions were flawless.

Study at the altar of Al Lutz, Jim Hill, and Kevin Yee? All self-aggrandizing demagogues with ne'er-do-well potential? Deathly afraid of change, but most importantly, worried that your opinion may not be the only one that matters?

Even if none of these statements are true concerning you, NOW IS THE TIME, you must understand that these are the pervading feelings of much of the board-going public. But a Walt Disney World, which catered only to the internet fan forum posting guest, would be closed faster than Carrie: The Broadway Musical.

Let me try and set the record straight, because I love Walt Disney World. No decision (like the ones to remove such 'staid' classics at Horizons, or World of Boredom) is made without a mountain of paperwork, studies, debate and consideration as to what would be a bigger guest draw. Problem is, people tend to blind themselves out of hatred towards the new. Anyone who can look you in the eye and say there is no longer educational value in the Seas with Nemo and Friends, or Mission: Space, or Gran Fiesta Tour, or any number attractions which seem to be the whipping boys around here, is deliberately trying to fool themselves because they are so set in their stubborn false beliefs. They want so desperately to cling to the past, that they literally start making stuff up to blame on the new attractions.


I'm done. I'm finished with you, and this whole conversation. I don't care what insults you whip at me, I will not be clicking on the link that goes to this topic anymore, nor any other time I see you post, Time. I am as much to blame as anyone else, but I am ending this ing contest. I have tried to get you to see reality, and , its really not worth getting my blood pressure up anymore. If people want to believe that Epcot is no longer educational, then they can lie to themselves all they want, I'll be queuing up at American Adventure.

Good night everyone, and I leave you with the immortal words of Anton Ego

:wave: Hey everyone, it worked! He's gone.

:ROFLOL:

I was just trying to point out that his "facts," although some I'm sure are true, are driven by someone who stands on the podium and doesn't give other posters respect or credit.

Oh and yes, all the "guesses" he made about me are untrue. I am older than Mr. Enderikari and have plenty of knowledge, it's just that I don't have the insecurity of a 13 year old girl with a training bra so I don't feel I have to "prove" anything to anyone.

Yes, some people whine about the original Epcot Center being gone. I never denied that. The park is different now.. in some ways it's better.. in some ways it's not. If you have an opinion, by all means let's hear it. Just don't come and tell me that everything you say is fact and that if we don't necessarily buy it that we're idiots.

Beyond knowledge or opinion, if I had to state one thing about myself, you wanna know what qualifies me to post here? I grew up at Epcot and had a passion for it from the first day it opened - and yes I was old enough to be cognizant of it all. How wonderful a place Epcot Center was! What an incredible trip you took into the future, the past, and your imagination back then! Keep in mind, nowadays Epcot is just one of many theme parks but years back, it stood out because people only had the Magic Kingdom and Disneyland to compare it to. Epcot had such an incredible "spirit" about it. Do some of you recall that?

I don't dislike the new Epcot, I still love it. Again, some changes good, some changes bad. I just don't understand how someone can post how much better the new Epcot is, then spit all over someone who happens to have an affinity for the original Epcot Center. And I always turn my head just a little bit to those that always quote attendance figures and $$$ when they compare new and old things. That is not the bottom line. These same people are the ones who think that making straight to dvd releases of "Bambi 8" and "Peter Pan: Back To Neverland for the 100th time" are good ideas.

The best way to discredit your own postings is by showing disrespect to the posts made by others. I never valued an opinion from someone who never had an interest in hearing my own.

 

[jakeman]

And I always turn my head just a little bit to those that always quote attendance figures and $$$ when they compare new and old things. That is not the bottom line. These same people are the ones who think that making straight to dvd releases of "Bambi 8" and "Peter Pan: Back To Neverland for the 100th time" are good ideas.

Here's the thing. To the people that are providing you with your "edutainment" and the marketing you have fallen so hard for, that is the bottom line. I know that sounds harsh and smarmy, but all the waxing and waning regarding the Epcot that you grew up with doesn't matter. The "spirit" that you referenced was marketing. It is a theme park. You have chosen to take that the theme seriously. That is your choice, of course.

Save your attendance numbers and marketing...

I requoted this from earlier to point out that even though you are entitled to your opinion, you blatantly ignore that the thing you cherish is nothing more than marketing.

As I've said, some good changes were made at Epcot, some bad. Do I miss some aspects of the old days and what Epcot stood for? Of course. Do I love some of the new attractions today? Absolutely. Just leave things like Horizons and World Of Motion alone. If you didn't like them then I feel sorry for you and we'll leave it at that, thank you sir.

What I bolded sums up pretty much what is frustrating about some folks that share this opinion. Your attitude regarding these attractions is just as close minded as you claim Endari's is. I don't need your pity because I thought your omnimover was boring.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

*cough* well....

If Enderikari really did gain or can gain access to various documents related to Disney's various theme park attendance, among other things, the way Enderikari comes across online is to the likes of a 16 year old girl who didn't get her driver's license on her first try and is suffering from PMS and God-only knows what else.

For someone to come on these boards and declare that they truly have the facts yet cannot provide a single specific fact or figure other than their own OPINION for 99.9% percent of the time, I am shocked someone with such immature, and demeaning stature could know so many higher ups or access to such records in the Disney company.

My evidence for the EPCOT theme, the EPCOT Center message, and purpose of the park all come from the early publications, and 8mm and/or 16mm footage and later day vhs tapes concerning EPCOT Center in its early years.

I am personally glad that EPCOT...the city....was never built. I won't get into that, but I'll just simply say I'm glad his city of tomorrow was never built (for a variety of reasons).


EPCOT Center....or what finally became it...to me was a great challenge for the Disney company that they initially accomplished.

How can this be an opinion? Walt Disney did in fact seperate himself throughout his career and that of his company from the famous and now-deemed classic animated movies. He and his Imagineers wanted to show that the Disney company was creative and "magical" on other ways. Many of his rides and shows at Disneyland, and most certainly at the world's fair had no refrence to Disney shows and movies, expect for a few at Disneyland.

The only classic Disney refrence that came to the world's fair was meet and greet characters such as snow white, alice in wonderland among others. And opinion wise...that's fine with me! It is a branding and message the disney company has for children, familes, etc....but the innovative, creative, and unique attractions created for disneyland and the world's fair allowed people of all ages to explore a different realm, a more scientific realm and industrial aspect that Walt Disney was pushing for his company.

He was out to make a buck, but damn it all he used alot of talent, and tactics to do it well....and not heavily commercialized and cheap like done in many ways today with the Disney company.

So many of his attractions are just what the EPCOT Center message is all about....entertain...inform...inspire.

That's why I can safely say the children of the 1950s and 60s....not prone to 10 minute attention spans, video games, and over 100 channels of television, could easily understand and appreciate the message of EPCOT Center, especially had EPCOT Center opened in the atomic and space age of the late 50s and early to mid 60s.

EPCOT Center simply dared to be different.

But the amount of detail, time, effort, and money made the park justify what it was initially.

I don't mind change....it's a matter of what changes. For example I like the 1994 makeover of tomorrowland....HOWEVER look how we still have a peoplemover and rocket jets on top of the peoplemover station...unlike at Disneyland.

That's where change becomes good (for me), while still preserving the integrity and message of the past. i.e. peoplemover through tomorrowland and a dumbo ride on top of the station for an aerial view.

EPCOT Center had to change. The public by then was not easily entertained by scientific and educational presentations. These people were on vacation, they wanted more "fun".

The Universe of Energy had a VERY dry and scientific presentation....however it used amazing show technology. This show technology was going to be reused in the concepts for Ellen's Energy Adventure, but ultimately never did.

This gets a minus in my book. Now we have an attraction...Ellen's Energy Adventure that is over 10 years old....outdated....and not serious enough to the impending energy crisis we are facing in 2007 and beyond....nor does the show use the technology the 1982 version had that made the even boring scientific version somewhat worthwile.

Then you have wonders of life....sure it came in 1989....but it grew outdated quickly. Now it sits empty and forgotten for most of the time. It's a mess, and a scar on the lack of "what do we do now" ideals that most, but not all Disney management asks. This pavilion would have either been demolished, or turned into a new year round exhibit had wonders of life closed back in the early to mid 90s.

Horizons...a complex ride that WAS the meaning of EPCOT Center, wasn't outdated in what it liked to show...underwater cities, etc....it was the show sets themselves.....jumpsuits orange and yellow 80s colors...projector screens with scratchy old 35mm film...etc. Had Horizons been saved, updated, and gone on with a new sponsor...I would have been all for that. See I don't want to see Horizons (1983) preserved forever, I want the message, the integrity of the ride updated for today. This is what they're doing with SSE and I am all for it!

I don't ever recall, and would love to see evidence that Disney formally said there was a sinkhole problem with Horizons. If there was such a problem the ride never would have reopened for the press event that was held for it in 1999.

In a 1995/6 guide to walt disney world, it states that Horizons had already closed and concepts for a new attraction were in the works to replace it.

Horizons did close in 1994 after GE left....it only reopened on spare time because WoM and UoE were down for rehab.

Sinkhole my @$$

Had the wonders of life been killed off earlier, and Mission: Space taken its spot, allowing a refurbed and updated Horizons to exist...oh my god....what a wonderful place indeed.

World of Motion was one of EPCOT Center's problems...there were too many omnimover rides...of the five ones in future world...world of motion was just a comical version of spaceship earth with a slapped on transporation theme....the only thing intruiging about the ending was the city of the future...everything else was projection screens.

The transcenter...now inside track....still entertains, informs, and inspires...good god most of it IS the transcenter layout and showspace.

The Odyssey Restaurant is a sad story. I remember eating there when it was open all the time, enjoying the food, the view, usually seeing a show.

Imagination was a screw up beyond belief. Here was an attraction that celebrated the mind, creativity, and art, and under a mere technicality with Kodak, the ride needing to be changed by a contract, the rehab was so screwed up, it resulted in a updated version so controversial, now the ride is in its third version.

The closed Imageworks and lame Kim Possible tie-in *Disney now inappropriately tieing television and unique theme park attractions together* creates an odd interaction.

The heavily outdated Honey I killed off the Dreamfinder needs a new film.

The Land was a good overhaul.

The Seas could have been done much more better blended between EPCOT Center ideals and modern Epcot.

How are the seacabs not fun? What about the hydrolators? Kids suddenly don't like them?

The seas could have retained its look, its exterior, its mural, with a nemo overlay in the queue, a nemo film in the remaining movie theater about exploring the seas with nemo in friends in seabase alpha...then riding the hydrolators to the sea cabs then into seabase alpha where you could then find turtle talk, etc.

Spaceship Earth 2007 and project tomorrow and various exhibits in Innoventions continue to show how the EPCOT Center message can be adjusted to the audiences of today.

Perhaps thinking that the EPCOT Center entrance with rows of flower beds, plants, and palm trees is better than the current look is an opinion....however if you were to show every single guest entering that park what the original entrance looked like compared to the current one, I can bet you well over 95% of guests would be in favor of the original entrance...as well as the fountains, ponds, and cool color schemes that used to dot futureworld.

I respect EPCOT Center for what it meant and what it was. However how can I not disagree with Kevin Yee that the quality has dropped. A half-______ open wonders of life, a usually closed Odyssey...a shuttered image works, etc, etc

It never would have happened until the "Disney decade" of 1990-1999 and beyond.

All that writing made me hungry. I need a churro. :lol:

You deserve it!Great post.EXACTLY how I feel.

:wave: Hey everyone, it worked! He's gone.

:ROFLOL:

Hehehe...

I was just trying to point out that his "facts," although some I'm sure are true, are driven by someone who stands on the podium and doesn't give other posters respect or credit.

Oh and yes, all the "guesses" he made about me are untrue. I am older than Mr. Enderikari and have plenty of knowledge, it's just that I don't have the insecurity of a 13 year old girl with a training bra so I don't feel I have to "prove" anything to anyone.

Yes, some people whine about the original Epcot Center being gone. I never denied that. The park is different now.. in some ways it's better.. in some ways it's not. If you have an opinion, by all means let's hear it. Just don't come and tell me that everything you say is fact and that if we don't necessarily buy it that we're idiots.

Beyond knowledge or opinion, if I had to state one thing about myself, you wanna know what qualifies me to post here? I grew up at Epcot and had a passion for it from the first day it opened - and yes I was old enough to be cognizant of it all. How wonderful a place Epcot Center was! What an incredible trip you took into the future, the past, and your imagination back then! Keep in mind, nowadays Epcot is just one of many theme parks but years back, it stood out because people only had the Magic Kingdom and Disneyland to compare it to. Epcot had such an incredible "spirit" about it. Do some of you recall that?

I don't dislike the new Epcot, I still love it. Again, some changes good, some changes bad. I just don't understand how someone can post how much better the new Epcot is, then spit all over someone who happens to have an affinity for the original Epcot Center. And I always turn my head just a little bit to those that always quote attendance figures and $$$ when they compare new and old things. That is not the bottom line. These same people are the ones who think that making straight to dvd releases of "Bambi 8" and "Peter Pan: Back To Neverland for the 100th time" are good ideas.

The best way to discredit your own postings is by showing disrespect to the posts made by others. I never valued an opinion from someone who never had an interest in hearing my own.

YES!!!I totally miss the EPCOT CENTER spirit.We saw it come back on the 1st but like I said in the opening post,it's gone now.

...Now for a new question:If we are not going to see a return of real "edutainment" think we will ever get that EPCOT pride back?