Rededication-What does it mean?

[EPCOT.nut]

Blech. This thread was fun.....but it ain't no more. See ya! :wave:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Thanks for your time.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

I'm done with this thread too. EPCOT Explorer it was a great topic and a good discussion! :wave:

 

[RobGraves]

i posted this originally about two years ago in a thread about how Epcot had become... and i think Ender was who i was responding to then too... but i feel it is important to repost.
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The original post : "
Let's try to remember a simple fact... Epcot is a theme park built for one purpose. Sorry, that purpose is not some higher philosophical motive that some want to dream about, but rather, to make money. Any attempt by the consumer to instill some higher motive to the park simply means WDI succeeded in pulling some Disney showmanship to affect the transfer of $$$ from our pockets to theirs. The illusion of Epcot serving some higher purpose, as purported by a vocal few, just shows they "sold" their product very well. "

My response:

Wow, see what the product of our jaded, soulless, aimless society is... witness it in its full glory, for this is why the "future" and died.

Walt Disney was the last great futurist. EPCOT in it's original non-theme park form, was a dream/obsession of Walt's... a Utopian society on the bleeding edge of technology with all of its citizens working towards the betterment of the human condition. A city of tomorrow... today.

First though, lets look back at Disneyland. Do you think Walt made Disneyland for the sole purpose of making money? If he did, he would never have built it. Disneyland was first and foremost a realization of walt's own obsessions. It was his Neverland. It was a place where he could have, and share, his idealized america, his vision of the past, his visions of the future, and the flights of fancy that entertained his mind.... and he could drive a train. If he made it to make money he would be like most of Todays Disney upper brass and only go to the parks when forced... not have an apartment there, not buy ice cream for the kids... or even take a few hours working the ice cream cart just so he could see smiles on kids faces. If Disneyland would have been designed to "make money" it would have failed miserably. Did Walt hope it made money, yes... if for nothing else to prove his critics wrong. More importantly though it helped to fund bigger dreams.

The Florida Project was the culmination of those dreams. It was Walt's perfect Utopian (some would say proto-fascist) vision. However... after Walt died, no one knew, no one had the passion to complete those dreams... So, they did the next best thing in their minds... They took the theme park concept and worked it into the EPCOT concept. EPCOT was a theme park that would reflect those Utopian dreams, it would progress the idea of people working together for a better future, rather than resigning themselves to annihilation. EPCOT was intended to teach, and hope that when you left, you took part of that dream with you.

I grew up in central Florida... I grew up at Walt Disney World... but more importantly, much of my dreams were forged at EPCOT. I loved EPCOT, i used to LOVE Horizons, Universe of Energy, World of Motion, The Living Seas, The Land, Imagination... Spaceship Earth... and Yes... Mexico was my favorite thing in world showcase till Maelstrom (being of Norwegian Heritage)... My family ended up going to EPCOT more than the MK when i was groeing up,because i loved it. I used to look forward to my yearly school field trips to EPCOT, even though I was there almost every weekend anyway.. because i got to see different things, i got to share my love with my fellow students...

Well i moved off to Los Angeles... and didn't get to visit EPCOT for a long time....

I returned to Florida this year for one year to handle family issues, and the first thing i did was head to EPCOT ... but it was gone. It was replaced by Epcot. Gone were those dreams... with the exception of SSE... Replaced by Ellen, Replaced by Mission: Space (which while still having a futurist element... lacks the greater part of a soul.. especially in comparison to that which it replaced), Replaced by Test Track (which teaches us nothing about the future, and instead is a giant advertisment for todays cars), Replaced by Nemo (and not the Jules Verne one...and god do i miss the movie from the living seas ), Replaced by Eric Idle... The Land changes i dont mind too much, though i miss the boat ride having a CM. Even SSE is in a state where it is missing half of itself...

I cried. I turned to my wife and said... what happened.

and i think that article "A Happy Accident" sums up my thoughts pretty well... It happened because of you.

It happened because people have no attention spans anymore. It happened because cynicism replaced idealism. It happened because nihilism replaced futurism. When I was a kid we dreamed of flying cars still... todays kid's vision of the future is less Jetson's/Metropolis and more Terminator/Mad Max. It is less Jules Verne and Ray Bradbury and more... well apocalyptic. They are taught there IS NO FUTURE!!! Weather it be Christian Fundamentalist Evangelicals telling them "Jesus is coming, you don't need a future beyond that its the end times" or Mass Media telling them the world is going to end by Nuclear Holocaust, Environmental Disaster, Meteor Strike, ETC... ALL THEY HEAR IS "THIS IS THE END." Why would you dream for a future when all you hear is it isn't coming. Hell, we put man on the moon... then spent 25 years not going out of orbit... now kids are told we never landed on the moon on network TV specials.

Your cynicism and jaded response is noted ahead of time.

EPCOT died, not because it was a failure...

but because we were.

 

[imagineer boy]

*cough* well....

If Enderikari really did gain or can gain access to various documents related to Disney's various theme park attendance, among other things, the way Enderikari comes across online is to the likes of a 16 year old girl who didn't get her driver's license on her first try and is suffering from PMS and God-only knows what else.

For someone to come on these boards and declare that they truly have the facts yet cannot provide a single specific fact or figure other than their own OPINION for 99.9% percent of the time, I am shocked someone with such immature, and demeaning stature could know so many higher ups or access to such records in the Disney company.

My evidence for the EPCOT theme, the EPCOT Center message, and purpose of the park all come from the early publications, and 8mm and/or 16mm footage and later day vhs tapes concerning EPCOT Center in its early years.

I am personally glad that EPCOT...the city....was never built. I won't get into that, but I'll just simply say I'm glad his city of tomorrow was never built (for a variety of reasons).


EPCOT Center....or what finally became it...to me was a great challenge for the Disney company that they initially accomplished.

How can this be an opinion? Walt Disney did in fact seperate himself throughout his career and that of his company from the famous and now-deemed classic animated movies. He and his Imagineers wanted to show that the Disney company was creative and "magical" on other ways. Many of his rides and shows at Disneyland, and most certainly at the world's fair had no refrence to Disney shows and movies, expect for a few at Disneyland.

The only classic Disney refrence that came to the world's fair was meet and greet characters such as snow white, alice in wonderland among others. And opinion wise...that's fine with me! It is a branding and message the disney company has for children, familes, etc....but the innovative, creative, and unique attractions created for disneyland and the world's fair allowed people of all ages to explore a different realm, a more scientific realm and industrial aspect that Walt Disney was pushing for his company.

He was out to make a buck, but damn it all he used alot of talent, and tactics to do it well....and not heavily commercialized and cheap like done in many ways today with the Disney company.

So many of his attractions are just what the EPCOT Center message is all about....entertain...inform...inspire.

That's why I can safely say the children of the 1950s and 60s....not prone to 10 minute attention spans, video games, and over 100 channels of television, could easily understand and appreciate the message of EPCOT Center, especially had EPCOT Center opened in the atomic and space age of the late 50s and early to mid 60s.

EPCOT Center simply dared to be different.

But the amount of detail, time, effort, and money made the park justify what it was initially.

I don't mind change....it's a matter of what changes. For example I like the 1994 makeover of tomorrowland....HOWEVER look how we still have a peoplemover and rocket jets on top of the peoplemover station...unlike at Disneyland.

That's where change becomes good (for me), while still preserving the integrity and message of the past. i.e. peoplemover through tomorrowland and a dumbo ride on top of the station for an aerial view.

EPCOT Center had to change. The public by then was not easily entertained by scientific and educational presentations. These people were on vacation, they wanted more "fun".

The Universe of Energy had a VERY dry and scientific presentation....however it used amazing show technology. This show technology was going to be reused in the concepts for Ellen's Energy Adventure, but ultimately never did.

This gets a minus in my book. Now we have an attraction...Ellen's Energy Adventure that is over 10 years old....outdated....and not serious enough to the impending energy crisis we are facing in 2007 and beyond....nor does the show use the technology the 1982 version had that made the even boring scientific version somewhat worthwile.

Then you have wonders of life....sure it came in 1989....but it grew outdated quickly. Now it sits empty and forgotten for most of the time. It's a mess, and a scar on the lack of "what do we do now" ideals that most, but not all Disney management asks. This pavilion would have either been demolished, or turned into a new year round exhibit had wonders of life closed back in the early to mid 90s.

Horizons...a complex ride that WAS the meaning of EPCOT Center, wasn't outdated in what it liked to show...underwater cities, etc....it was the show sets themselves.....jumpsuits orange and yellow 80s colors...projector screens with scratchy old 35mm film...etc. Had Horizons been saved, updated, and gone on with a new sponsor...I would have been all for that. See I don't want to see Horizons (1983) preserved forever, I want the message, the integrity of the ride updated for today. This is what they're doing with SSE and I am all for it!

I don't ever recall, and would love to see evidence that Disney formally said there was a sinkhole problem with Horizons. If there was such a problem the ride never would have reopened for the press event that was held for it in 1999.

In a 1995/6 guide to walt disney world, it states that Horizons had already closed and concepts for a new attraction were in the works to replace it.

Horizons did close in 1994 after GE left....it only reopened on spare time because WoM and UoE were down for rehab.

Sinkhole my @$$

Had the wonders of life been killed off earlier, and Mission: Space taken its spot, allowing a refurbed and updated Horizons to exist...oh my god....what a wonderful place indeed.

World of Motion was one of EPCOT Center's problems...there were too many omnimover rides...of the five ones in future world...world of motion was just a comical version of spaceship earth with a slapped on transporation theme....the only thing intruiging about the ending was the city of the future...everything else was projection screens.

The transcenter...now inside track....still entertains, informs, and inspires...good god most of it IS the transcenter layout and showspace.

The Odyssey Restaurant is a sad story. I remember eating there when it was open all the time, enjoying the food, the view, usually seeing a show.

Imagination was a screw up beyond belief. Here was an attraction that celebrated the mind, creativity, and art, and under a mere technicality with Kodak, the ride needing to be changed by a contract, the rehab was so screwed up, it resulted in a updated version so controversial, now the ride is in its third version.

The closed Imageworks and lame Kim Possible tie-in *Disney now inappropriately tieing television and unique theme park attractions together* creates an odd interaction.

The heavily outdated Honey I killed off the Dreamfinder needs a new film.

The Land was a good overhaul.

The Seas could have been done much more better blended between EPCOT Center ideals and modern Epcot.

How are the seacabs not fun? What about the hydrolators? Kids suddenly don't like them?

The seas could have retained its look, its exterior, its mural, with a nemo overlay in the queue, a nemo film in the remaining movie theater about exploring the seas with nemo in friends in seabase alpha...then riding the hydrolators to the sea cabs then into seabase alpha where you could then find turtle talk, etc.

Spaceship Earth 2007 and project tomorrow and various exhibits in Innoventions continue to show how the EPCOT Center message can be adjusted to the audiences of today.

Perhaps thinking that the EPCOT Center entrance with rows of flower beds, plants, and palm trees is better than the current look is an opinion....however if you were to show every single guest entering that park what the original entrance looked like compared to the current one, I can bet you well over 95% of guests would be in favor of the original entrance...as well as the fountains, ponds, and cool color schemes that used to dot futureworld.

I respect EPCOT Center for what it meant and what it was. However how can I not disagree with Kevin Yee that the quality has dropped. A half-______ open wonders of life, a usually closed Odyssey...a shuttered image works, etc, etc

It never would have happened until the "Disney decade" of 1990-1999 and beyond.

I don't want to get into this thread either, but I just wanted to take this moment to say that I agree with each and every little thing you said in that post. Good job.

 

[jakeman]

I'm bowing out as well. For the most part good points were made all around. I apologize if anything I said killed the thread.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

I fit into the age category that saw, as an adult, the construction and opening of Epcot. I also remember my experiences at the '64 Worlds Fair that Epcot brought back fond memories of. The majority of Worlds Fair "rides" were omnimover type as with Epcot....the reason being the ability to move the most people through the attraction.

I loved Epcot from the beginning, and also remember that many, many people thought it was boring. They talked about it like we do about MGM, DCA or AK (not as much for that one now...) as a half day park. In '82, kids were bored beyond belief...."there's nothing to do here...". Maelstrom was the big "thrill ride" and had hour+ waits.

I loved and miss Horizons, Imagination, WOM, WOL but they never had the lines that Test Track or Soarin' have. Mission Space is a truly innovative concept.

I have long ago come to the understanding that the world is not about what I want or what I think is best. Things move on, and while I fondly remember the past, I thoroughly enjoy the present. (is there really a choice?) Horizons fixation is simply tilting at windmills....the 25 (or 30 if you consider planning) concept of EPCOT Center is no longer applicable....just as a WDW consisting of MK and two hotels is irrelevant. I have no desire to return to my high school or college days (although they were great at the time). I also have no desire to return to the Epcot of the past, except as a cherished memory.

Oh, and to the original question that this thread has drifted so far from....

Rededication- to open (or re-open) with a formal ceremony, to re-commit to a particular course of action or thought.
So forget about lapsing to the past....this is a new start of Epcot's future. Just as renewal of marriage vows is not returning to start the relationship over again, but to acknowledge the growth over time and the desire to continue forward.

 

[nibblesandbits]

I fit into the age category that saw, as an adult, the construction and opening of Epcot. I also remember my experiences at the '64 Worlds Fair that Epcot brought back fond memories of. The majority of Worlds Fair "rides" were omnimover type as with Epcot....the reason being the ability to move the most people through the attraction.

I loved Epcot from the beginning, and also remember that many, many people thought it was boring. They talked about it like we do about MGM, DCA or AK (not as much for that one now...) as a half day park. In '82, kids were bored beyond belief...."there's nothing to do here...". Maelstrom was the big "thrill ride" and had hour+ waits.

I loved and miss Horizons, Imagination, WOM, WOL but they never had the lines that Test Track or Soarin' have. Mission Space is a truly innovative concept.

I have long ago come to the understanding that the world is not about what I want or what I think is best. Things move on, and while I fondly remember the past, I thoroughly enjoy the present. (is there really a choice?) Horizons fixation is simply tilting at windmills....the 25 (or 30 if you consider planning) concept of EPCOT Center is no longer applicable....just as a WDW consisting of MK and two hotels is irrelevant. I have no desire to return to my high school or college days (although they were great at the time). I also have no desire to return to the Epcot of the past, except as a cherished memory.

Oh, and to the original question that this thread has drifted so far from....

Rededication- to open (or re-open) with a formal ceremony, to re-commit to a particular course of action or thought.
So forget about lapsing to the past....this is a new start of Epcot's future. Just as renewal of marriage vows is not returning to start the relationship over again, but to acknowledge the growth over time and the desire to continue forward.

Very good statement.

 

[Now Is The Time]

And my apologies as well if things got a little out of control. My last statement (hopefully about this whole topic is...

Yes, I loved Horizons, World Of Motion, the original Journey Into Imagination, etc. I am not bitter about it, mind you.. and I love today's Epcot very much. However, when people start talking about longer lines for Test Track and Mission Space - in my opinion you can't just base their supposed popularity on the fact that "the rides are updated and newer, which is why people like them more." It's not that simple.

It's been 25 years since Epcot was born. Since then, many many more themeparks have been built all around the world. More people are visiting WDW more than ever.. not to mention my little figure I used before that there's more than 1.5 billion more people in the world that have been added since. Just think how many more hotels have been built on property since the early 80's.. then you have 2 more theme parks... waterparks... Downtown Disney. People are swarming to WDW because of all these things. Why are guests going to Mission Space and Test Track? Because they're there. Don't get me wrong, I like them both and if they were absolutely terrible, the lines wouldn't be as long and people wouldn't be going back. I just don't think you can attribute the lines for say Mission Space only to the fact that Horizons was knocked down, that's all. Since Horizons and Mission Space (or World Of Motion and Test Track) never co-existed, you can't accurately compare how each does over the other. And what if the rides did in fact co-exist? Would Mission Space attract more guests than Horizons? I don't know.. and guess what... NOBODY knows. But boy I would have loved to see those numbers. It's also very interesting to me how some who doubt the importance and enjoyment level that Horizons and WOM had are the same ones who call the attactions "boring."

I have heard and read many times the following statement "I wish I had the chance to ride Horizons." It still captures interest.

I'm not a whiner. Heck I loved Kitchen Kabaret but I have absolutely no problem that Soarin was built in it's place. I love it. I love Turtle Talk and Ellen's Energy attraction as well.

Just food for thought

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Good thoughts....Let's leave it at that.

Thanks for all the great and thought provoking posts guys!

It's been a pleasure.