Rededication-What does it mean?

[EPCOT Explorer]

Are the signs and some of merch still around?

 

[nibblesandbits]

Because horizons was the bomb!!!No-it really deffined EPCOT Center and it's concepts and now it's legacy.

And that's one of the big issues that I have with all the people who miss the old EPCOT. You all are still stuck on the rides of the past. If you look at the rides now. Really look at them. Take them for their value, and not comparing them to what we have now, you might see things differently. If Disney had built things like Test Track, Mission Space, and the Seas first, you all would be waxing poetic for these rides if they had disappeared. B/c that's what would be in your memory instead. These new rides are fun too.

And no offense, but those EPCOT values that the park had at the beginning are exactly why I don't remember things like Horizons or World of Motion as a child. And why I didn't like Epcot as a whole as a child. It was boring. As I've already mentioned, I do remember Epcot from back then. I do remember Figment and Kitchen Kaberet and I even remember Body Wars...and why? B/c those things were fun. Even now, as I stated earlier, I tried less than a week ago to watch a video of Horizons, and while a video might not do it 100% justice, I couldn't even bear to watch the whole thing. I found it to be boring NOW, as an adult. Yes, I miss the fact that AAs aren't being used as much anymore, but the actual ride, was a snoozefest to me. As was much of Epcot back in the 80s.

Epcot for me now...is a heck of a lot of fun. I love most of the attractions there now. Soarin and Test Track are actually on my list of favorites. The Seas with Nemo, I think is very cute and extremely well done. (although, I guess I could agree that some more learning could have gone into it--however, since you can learn in the rest of the Seas pavillion, I'm not going to fault it too much.) Epcot is actually my second favorite park now. It wasn't a few years ago.

What I'm saying is that while Epcot may have been entertaining for many of you in the past, the whole "museum" aspect didn't sit well with me and a majority of other people who ended up visiting the theme park. It was boring and Disney realized that something was going to have to change, otherwise, their park would not be number two anymore. It would have likely ended up slipping. They knew they would have to make the park fun for the 21st century, and I believe that they are doing that and succeeding. (Oh, and I believe that we are, in fact, still learning. Something many of you don't seem to realize, but you are learning. It's just not the same kind of learning as before)

 

[EPCOT.nut]

I find it disheartening that all traces of the 25th celebration have "disappeared" around the park...but they were nice while they lasted. I do my best to remind guests about it when I spiel on the boats.

YEP me, too. I went to EPCOT for a few hours last Saturday and the little 25th sign behind SSE that was in the big logo-planting was gone...

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

And that's one of the big issues that I have with all the people who miss the old EPCOT. You all are still stuck on the rides of the past. If you look at the rides now. Really look at them. Take them for their value, and not comparing them to what we have now, you might see things differently. If Disney had built things like Test Track, Mission Space, and the Seas first, you all would be waxing poetic for these rides if they had disappeared. B/c that's what would be in your memory instead. These new rides are fun too. .

Ah,but you see,those were not the values and entertainment EPCOT Center was supposed to give out.In the beginning it was the "Futuristic Wonder" of the world to come.That's why some Epcot fan's opinions hold TT and M:S in such low esteem.

As for Soarin,I have no problems with as it as it exists very nicely in The Land with other EPCOT Center-esque attractions.That's the only real probem I have with TT and MS-They offer nothing but the cheap thrill and no real storyline/moral.

They knew they would have to make the park fun for the 21st century, and I believe that they are doing that and succeeding. (Oh, and I believe that we are, in fact, still learning. Something many of you don't seem to realize, but you are learning. It's just not the same kind of learning as before)

Would you care to elaborate?

That's sad about the 25th references BTW.

 

[CaptainMichael]

Are the signs and some of merch still around?

No, they lasted a grand total of 2 weeks I believe...not very long.

The silver sign behind SSE stayed up for a while, but I don't recall seeing it last night.

The retro stuff was being sold before the 25th and has been selling well. Disney is now also selling retroish shirts with the old WDW logo and the monorail.

 

[CaptainMichael]

YEP me, too. I went to EPCOT for a few hours last Saturday and the little 25th sign behind SSE that was in the big logo-planting was gone...

It's definitely a head scratcher...what was that sign hurting???? Absolutely nothing. I do love the inclusion of the retro logos on the new gates, and I even saw a wheelchair yesterday with the flower logo and EPCOT in the old font...whether it was old or not, I do not know. Also, props to Siemens for keeping the old SSE logo. Siemens gets "it".

I love new Epcot, and I respect its history because that's why it has the charm it does today.

 

[nibblesandbits]

Ah,but you see,those were not the values and entertainment EPCOT Center was supposed to give out.In the beginning it was the "Futuristic Wonder" of the world to come.That's why some Epcot fan's opinions hold TT and M:S in such low esteem.

As for Soarin,I have no problems with as it as it exists very nicely in The Land with other EPCOT Center-esque attractions.That's the only real probem I have with TT and MS-They offer nothing but the cheap thrill and no real storyline/moral.

Would you care to elaborate?

That's sad about the 25th references BTW.

Ah, but you see, for the most part, those values were boring and didn't resonate with the general public. Therefore, that is why Disney decided to change all that they did. Disney does have things that are older that do resonate with the general public, Haunted Mansion at the Magic Kingdom comes to mind. (Yes, I am aware that you don't learn anything on the HM. :lol: But go with me.) The HM was built with the Magic Kingdom and yet, it is still one of the most popular rides over there. Why? B/c it resonates with people. Another example is Figment, the character, not the ride. He resonated heavily with people. That's why Disney actually brought him back from being gone.

The attractions that are so dear to EPCOT fans hearts, did resonate with you all, however, you all are a smaller portion than the general public. So when it was time for things to be updated, yes, Disney could have chosen to just update the rides ala Haunted Mansion update. (Or SSE update, at least from what I'm hearing) But did they? No. B/c they knew those attractions weren't working with the general public. Therefore, Disney did create something that does work with the general public...and I believe the lines show it. (B/c I know everytime I go, the line for Test Track is usually in the 60 minute mark, at least...and that's in the off season.)

I understand all of your disappointment. I love COP, and will be upset when it goes away in the future (b/c I do know that it's time is probably limited) however, I won't sit here an complain that they took it away. I won't even compare COP to whatever will be built in it's place. B/c they can't be compared. I will be happy that I got to visit a wonderful attraction, but understand that times have changed and that one of my favorite attractions wasn't current enough and didn't resonate with the general public, like it did with me.

 

[EPCOT.nut]

It's definitely a head scratcher...what was that sign hurting???? Absolutely nothing. I do love the inclusion of the retro logos on the new gates, and I even saw a wheelchair yesterday with the flower logo and EPCOT in the old font...whether it was old or not, I do not know. Also, props to Siemens for keeping the old SSE logo. Siemens gets "it".

I love new Epcot, and I respect its history because that's why it has the charm it does today.

I think they should have left the 25th signs and fanfare up through the Holidays because so many people will be visiting during that time - it would be good for promotional reasons. The only reason I could see them taking the sign I was mentioning is because the blue and silver does not match the red and green of the new planted foliage around the mini logo-hedge. :shrug:

Yes I love EPCOT, too. I am good with change. I can take it. Now you will never convince me that the Grand F. Tour (lol) is better than El Rio. Sorry. But there have been so many great changes that keeps EPCOT fresh.

I would like to see a new guidemap and get the Nemo clamshells off the front. :lol: Yep I am all over Nemo again. Sorry folks. Maybe when SSE reopens they can do a new guidemap with SSE on the front! After all, it is the big deal right now. I would hate to be the CM standing in front telling people it was closed. I stood there a week ago and listened to him explain. People were not not not happy! :lookaroun

 

[CaptainMichael]

I would like to see a new guidemap and get the Nemo clamshells off the front. :lol: Yep I am all over Nemo again. Sorry folks. Maybe when SSE reopens they can do a new guidemap with SSE on the front! After all, it is the big deal right now. I would hate to be the CM standing in front telling people it was closed. I stood there a week ago and listened to him explain. People were not not not happy! :lookaroun

Well, your dream came true, it's the Candlelight Processional right now. All 4 parks have holiday themed maps now. Also, I'd put money on SSE being on the cover when it reopens.

 

[nibblesandbits]

Would you care to elaborate?

Sure, but some others have pointed this out as well. You just didn't seem to see it.

I am learning a lot in the new "Future World." It may not be about seeing how things will be done in the future...however, to me, it is still educational.

Test Track: I'm learning about how they test cars. I would have never known before this what it was like at a prooving ground. This gave me insight into something that I would have likely never found out before.
Mission Space: I don't know about you, but I don't plan on going into space any time soon. Right now, this is the closest I'm going to get. I actually learned what it felt like to "take off." While the entire ride isn't about "learning" per se, I did learn something.
Soarin: I learned how vast the California landscape actually is. It's amazing that California has all those different aspects to it.
The Seas: While Nemo isn't the most educational, I did learn about fish outside of the ride. (Educational by default). And Crush can be educational as well at times.
Figment: well, I do miss the old ride, but at least this one still tells the value of using your imagination.
Universe of Energy: extremely dated, but it still tells the story of fossil fuels and I didn't know all of that info before.

So, as you can see, while it's not as much wonderment as it might have once been...this is still teaching some things. They are just teaching things that are more recent discoveries, instead of wild notions of discoveries that may be to come. B/c that's how Disney dates itself really easy. (Just look at the old ending of SSE and the "video phone" portion.) I know I'm still learning. I'm sorry if you are not.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Ah, but you see, for the most part, those values were boring and didn't resonate with the general public. Therefore, that is why Disney decided to change all that they did. Disney does have things that are older that do resonate with the general public, Haunted Mansion at the Magic Kingdom comes to mind. (Yes, I am aware that you don't learn anything on the HM. :lol: But go with me.) The HM was built with the Magic Kingdom and yet, it is still one of the most popular rides over there. Why? B/c it resonates with people. Another example is Figment, the character, not the ride. He resonated heavily with people. That's why Disney actually brought him back from being gone.

The attractions that are so dear to EPCOT fans hearts, did resonate with you all, however, you all are a smaller portion than the general public. So when it was time for things to be updated, yes, Disney could have chosen to just update the rides ala Haunted Mansion update. (Or SSE update, at least from what I'm hearing) But did they? No. B/c they knew those attractions weren't working with the general public. Therefore, Disney did create something that does work with the general public...and I believe the lines show it. (B/c I know everytime I go, the line for Test Track is usually in the 60 minute mark, at least...and that's in the off season.)

I understand all of your disappointment. I love COP, and will be upset when it goes away in the future (b/c I do know that it's time is probably limited) however, I won't sit here an complain that they took it away. I won't even compare COP to whatever will be built in it's place. B/c they can't be compared. I will be happy that I got to visit a wonderful attraction, but understand that times have changed and that one of my favorite attractions wasn't current enough and didn't resonate with the general public, like it did with me.

Well put, and very true.But is there a chance for people to be educated while in Epcot and still while having fun like in the '80's...That's what's really been bugging me.Is the current Epcot living up to the lofty goals of 1982?

I think they should have left the 25th signs and fanfare up through the Holidays because so many people will be visiting during that time - it would be good for promotional reasons. The only reason I could see them taking the sign I was mentioning is because the blue and silver does not match the red and green of the new planted foliage around the mini logo-hedge. :shrug:

Yes I love EPCOT, too. I am good with change. I can take it. Now you will never convince me that the Grand F. Tour (lol) is better than El Rio. Sorry. But there have been so many great changes that keeps EPCOT fresh.

I would like to see a new guidemap and get the Nemo clamshells off the front. :lol: Yep I am all over Nemo again. Sorry folks. Maybe when SSE reopens they can do a new guidemap with SSE on the front! After all, it is the big deal right now. I would hate to be the CM standing in front telling people it was closed. I stood there a week ago and listened to him explain. People were not not not happy! :lookaroun

Same here...I will always love Epcot-Center-or not.It's always been my favorite park and will always be.

But,yeah,time for that guide map to go!

 

[nibblesandbits]

Well put, and very true.But is there a chance for people to be educated while in Epcot and still while having fun like in the '80's...That's what's really been bugging me.Is the current Epcot living up to the lofty goals of 1982?

As I stated in my last post, I'm still learning in Epcot and I think we can tell I'm having fun. It may not be in the same way as it was in 1982, but I'm still learning. And I can bet you, if I'm learning something, I'm sure others are, who either may realize it or not. And once again, I'm sorry if you can't see that learning is indeed taking place. It's just not as preachy as it was in the 80s. (Something they also learned with AK after it was built too. People don't like to be preached to on vacation. They like enjoyment and entertainment. Then if you mix in a little education they don't mind it so much. That's why I think Epcot now is working so well and why AK is becoming better and better as years go by.)

 

[Now Is The Time]

And that's one of the big issues that I have with all the people who miss the old EPCOT. You all are still stuck on the rides of the past. If you look at the rides now. Really look at them. Take them for their value, and not comparing them to what we have now, you might see things differently. If Disney had built things like Test Track, Mission Space, and the Seas first, you all would be waxing poetic for these rides if they had disappeared.

Sorry but I disagree here strongly. Yes, there may be some who whine about the rides that no longer exist, but there are others who praise them for what they were and what they meant to Epcot Center. Not all change is good change. There are some good things that have happened to Epcot (Soarin' for example) and some not so good things (Imagination, Test Track).

And no offense, but those EPCOT values that the park had at the beginning are exactly why I don't remember things like Horizons or World of Motion as a child. And why I didn't like Epcot as a whole as a child. It was boring. As I've already mentioned, I do remember Epcot from back then.

Fine, that's your opinion, but there are MANY people who did not find the original Epcot boring in the least. It was a place of science and imagination. Just because YOU don't remember them, doesn't mean that the attractions didn't mean anything to others.

 

[Now Is The Time]

See, you don't get it. Not everyone considers them the "good old days." Most people don't want to see a return to those days, because they were BORING. I certainly don't want to see them again, unless I need to catch up on my reading in a near deserted park.


Uh huh. One day, remind me and I will explain the difference between fact and opinion.



Really? Because most people I know don't want to be beaten over the head with
education(morals, metaphors). They come to WDW on a vacation to have a good time and be entertained, to feel as if they are getting their money's worth.

And what what this forum be like without another self-righteous, "I know everything" post from Enderikari... No offense my friend but your posts continue to wreak of narcissism.

It's not a known "fact" that the Epcot of today is better than the Epcot Center of yesterday. Save your attendance numbers and marketing - heck the general population of the world is over a billion people more than it was in 1982 - that alone will give you more people in attendance. And no... not everyone was bored by the original Epcot Center.

As I've said, some good changes were made at Epcot, some bad. Do I miss some aspects of the old days and what Epcot stood for? Of course. Do I love some of the new attractions today? Absolutely. Just leave things like Horizons and World Of Motion alone. If you didn't like them then I feel sorry for you and we'll leave it at that, thank you sir.

 

[nibblesandbits]

Sorry but I disagree here strongly. Yes, there may be some who whine about the rides that no longer exist, but there are others who praise them for what they were and what they meant to Epcot Center. Not all change is good change. There are some good things that have happened to Epcot (Soarin' for example) and some not so good things (Imagination, Test Track).

You're right...they did mean a lot to EPCOT Center...but EPCOT Center changed b/c the message wasn't getting across as to what EPCOT Center was (at least to the majority of people.)

You may see some of these new changes to be bad...I however, do not. (As,would the general public, if, as I said, you look at the wait times for Test Track.) So while you may see Test Track as a bad thing to happen to Epcot, I see it as a good change for Disney, b/c with a ride like Test Track they are getting people to come to enjoy the park. And that is what Disney cares about...b/c Disney is a business...and if they can get people to come to the parks, then maybe, they can get them to buy other items too.

While some of these new rides might not extoll the message that EPCOT Center had...as I said before it's apparent that message didn't work with the general public therefore Epcot was born.

Fine, that's your opinion, but there are MANY people who did not find the original Epcot boring in the least. It was a place of science and imagination. Just because YOU don't remember them, doesn't mean that the attractions didn't mean anything to others.

Right, it is my opinion...and I'm sure others did enjoy them. I'm just saying, if the majority of the general public enjoyed them, they would still be around, redone to update to the times, like the HM or what they are doing with SSE. Not gone totally for a brand new type of attraction. And I believe that because Disney completely built something brand new, that my opinion would seem to be right in line with the general public's opinion.

 

[nibblesandbits]

Just leave things like Horizons and World Of Motion alone. If you didn't like them then I feel sorry for you and we'll leave it at that, thank you sir.

I'm sorry, I know this was directed at Enderikari, but I took offense to this. You feel sorry for those of us who didn't like Horizons or WOM?! I don't remember the attraction as a kid, but after all the talk about it, I decided last week to see what all the fuss was about and I didn't see it. The only thing I miss are the use of AAs in attractions...and that's it. I thought the attraction was boring.

However, I don't diss on people who don't like the attractions I like. I love COP, a ride in which many find outdated and boring...but I don't diss on those people simply b/c they don't enjoy a ride that I like. I understand that Disney is going to have rides that don't appeal to everyone...I really do. I'm not going to diss people who hate attractions that I love, nor would I want anyone to diss my opinions on what I find boring. (As you can see, I have not gone out of my way to diss on the people who loved Horizons...I might have said I didn't understand that love, but I'm not going to diss on them.) So for you to feel sorry for someone who doesn't like Horizons is completely uncalled for, in my opinion.

 

[Now Is The Time]

So for you to feel sorry for someone who doesn't like Horizons is completely uncalled for, in my opinion.

Ok, allow me to re-phrase. What I meant was, Horizons was one of the original attractions that embodied much of what Epcot was all about. If you were one of those who "didn't get it" - I genuinely think that you missed out on so much of the fun and wonder of what it was, and Epcot Center for that matter. It wasn't a point blank statement of "you stink if you didn't like Horizons" - that would be ignorant.

I'm just tired of the same 'ol bologna that people who miss the original attractions are whiny or completely out of their minds. Just don't come out and say that Epcot is hands down better than it was before, because it's not that simple. Some like the original Epot, others (like yourself) do not. So who's right and who's wrong? And what difference does it make really? You know what I take offense to? It's when I read the statment "Most people thought Epcot Center was boring." Not only is this absurd and untrue, it's written by posters who didn't like Epcot Center so they just assume that their opinion is shared by others.

Horizons was so beloved that it currently has tribute groups online, as well as websites that will take you back to experience it again. How boring do you really think it could be to so called "most people?"

 

[nibblesandbits]

Ok, allow me to re-phrase. What I meant was, Horizons was one of the original attractions that embodied much of what Epcot was all about. If you were one of those who "didn't get it" - I genuinely think that you missed out on so much of the fun and wonder of what it was, and Epcot Center for that matter. It wasn't a point blank statement of "you stink if you didn't like Horizons" - that would be ignorant.

I'm just tired of the same 'ol bologna that people who miss the original attractions are whiny or completely out of their minds. Just don't come out and say that Epcot is hands down better than it was before, because it's not that simple. Some like the original Epot, others (like yourself) do not. So who's right and who's wrong? And what difference does it make really? You know what I take offense to? It's when I read the statment "Most people thought Epcot Center was boring." Not only is this absurd and untrue, it's written by posters who didn't like Epcot Center so they just assume that their opinion is shared by others.

Horizons was so beloved that it currently has tribute groups online, as well as websites that will take you back to experience it again. How boring do you really think it could be to so called "most people?"

Well, I'm sorry I hit a nerve with you...and I respect your opinion.

You're right, it definitely isn't black and white, EPCOT Center vs. Epcot. And I never once said that those who liked EPCOT better were whiny. Nor did I say that Epcot is better now, hands down. Horizons did have it's followers, and it is great that so many people did love it. It's just apparent to me, that there are two main reasons why Disney would take out an attraction. 1. It costs too much money to run (could be be case) or 2. it's not getting the audience it used to. This is where it seems to me Horizons fell. (Actually, a better bet is probably both options.) That is why I believe it didn't resonate with the general audience anymore and why I say the general public thought it was boring. Better yet, instead of the word boring, how bout we say the attraction didn't work anymore. Because if it "worked" for most people, there might be a chance that these rides would still exist--they'd just be updated for the 21st century.

The problem is, only Disney knows if people thought it didn't "work" or not, so we don't know if it's an obsurd notion to think that it didn't resonate. But, if I were to guess, I would guess that this would be right on top of the list on why they changed what they changed. B/c if it "worked" with most people, it would be more like the Magic Kingdom--meaning the majority of rides that were there opening day are still there. At Epcot, obviously there was something that was lacking, otherwise they wouldn't have changed anything and it would resemble the MK a little more. (Meaning, rides that were there in the beginning would still be there, just spruced up.) Instead, Epcot is a whole new park. Now, there has to be a reason for that.

 

[EPCOT.nut]

At Epcot, obviously there was something that was lacking, otherwise they wouldn't have changed anything and it would resemble the MK a little more. (Meaning, rides that were there in the beginning would still be there, just spruced up.) Instead, Epcot is a whole new park. Now, there has to be a reason for that.

I think character rides like The Seas with Nemo will stick around for a long time. MK is basically all character rides.

EPCOT is meant to have "edutainment" rides and attractions. So they need to change more frequently. I don't think they could have updated Horizons enough for it to still be valid.

EPCOT just plain HAS to change all the time, improving and innovating. I think we ALL can agree changing Imagination was a step backwards, tho.

 

[Enderikari]

Horizons was so beloved that it currently has tribute groups online, as well as websites that will take you back to experience it again. How boring do you really think it could be to so called "most people?"

So does "Cop Rock," doesn't mean it was a good show.

Hi there, "Self-righteous" Enderikari here (which is a brand new one, I kind of like the tag).

And what what this forum be like without another self-righteous, "I know everything" post from Enderikari... No offense my friend but your posts continue to wreak of narcissism.

Narcissism? No sir, that smell that reaks is one you are unfamiliar with. It's called "Eau de Facts." Tell me sir, have you ever walked through the Disney Archives in California. Spent hours upon hours researching for great Disney tidbits at the Library and Research Center? Spoken with the decision-makers about why certain decisions have been made?

What? You haven't?

I have. Call that narcissistic if you want, maybe I do have an ego. But it is an ego I earned during my tenure at Disney. I used to call myself "the world's purest example of a Disney Geek" and I guess I still cling to that as true today.

It's not a known "fact" that the Epcot of today is better than the Epcot Center of yesterday. Save your attendance numbers and marketing - heck the general population of the world is over a billion people more than it was in 1982 - that alone will give you more people in attendance. And no... not everyone was bored by the original Epcot Center.

Absolutely, and the sheer number of people that visit Walt Disney World, it is completely impossible to say "EVERYONE" enjoys or doesn't enjoy anything. The closest Disney has come in the recent years is Soarin' with a close to 94% approval rate. However, I do know for a fact that Test Track's approval rating is far, far more than World of Motion's ever was. Horizons/Mission:Space is much the same story, but the numbers are closer.

Just leave things like Horizons and World Of Motion alone. If you didn't like them then I feel sorry for you and we'll leave it at that, thank you sir.

It's way more appropriate for me to feel sorry for you, sir. After all, the attractions I enjoy are still in the parks I visit.