Progress vs Preservation

[pax_65]

In a few different threads recently, there seems to be a fundamental difference in how people look at changes to the parks. Some want to "preserve" the classic Disney, full of the magic they remember. Others want to see "progress" in the parks, to update "tired, old" attractions.

Obviously most people are somewhere in the middle: in favor of some changes and opposed to others. But I do believe most people have a tendency one way or another.

Which side do you lean towards? Feel free to add some additional examples along with your answer.

PRESERVE----------PROGRESS

Mr. Toad------------Pooh
JIYI------------------New Imagination
World of Motion---Test Track
Horizons------------Mission Space
Spaceship Earth---Time Racers
20,000 Leagues---Ariel's Grotto
Mission To Mars----Alien Encounter
If You Had Wings--Buzz Lightyear

Other PRESERVE: Skyway, Carousel of Progress, Timekeeper, Wonders of Life

Other PROGRESS: Spash Mountain, Tower of Terror, Rock n Roll, Forbidden Mountain

 

[dox]

Interesting post!! Well i'm certainly in the middle on this issue with respect to so many of your examples. For example, the Mr. Toad issue. I loved Mr. Toad but it desperately needed updating. As for Pooh, I'm glad they have a pooh ride, but I don't particularly like the ride. If it would have been the Pooh Hunny Hunt as in Tokyo, I would probably be more in favor. I loved Horizons, but can't wait for Mission Space. The old JIM should never have been changed. That was needless change. Test Track is far superior to World of Motion as cute as that was. Many of the new rides I must say have been pretty good, with the exception of the Dino Land stuff and Aladdin. I'm in favor of change so long as the real classic rides aren't touched such as HM, PofC, SM, etc. I also don't mind updating with new technology as they did in the Fantasyland at DL in the early 80s.

Finally getting to my point here...if your going to make a change really do it, not some cheap, hokey update or new ride a la Pooh and the New JIM.

 

[Michael72688]

I'm all for progress, I dont think everything should stay the same forever!

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

i'm certanly in the middle here. maybe not for the same reason as others, exactly...i'm all for progress as long as it BETTERS the park...when they start making changes to try to give it more quality then i'm fine with it....but when they start making changes for a 'quick fix' or whatever, then it's not going to be the quality standard that Disney has set for themselves. that's how i've been seeing a LOT of the changes Disney has made since the Millenium Celebration and THAT'S why i'm not at all pleased with them, for the most part.
for me, personally, i lean toward preservation...put only to an extent and only for some things...yes, i know times change, and therefore Disney has to keep up with those changes. i'm aware of that. but i think there's a wrong way to keep up with the times, and a right way...and so far it looks like Disney has been taking the wrong way. now i'm no expert on how to make things better, but i think there is a way that Disney's just not allowing. to me it looks like they've forgotten their origin, where they came from, and how they got to where they are today. as i've said in another thread, it looks to me like they're conforming to today's trends, and Disney has NEVER been about conforming...it has always been about creating, defining, and dominating...i truely believe Disney still has the capability to do these things and i believe that the Imagineering Dept. still has the imagination and the skills to pull Disney through...i think it's a question of if Disney will allow them the budget to do this...and if they don't, then God save the company!
so, after saying alllll of that, i come to this point...that yes, Disney should preserve, but not particuarly the attractions...they need to preserve Walt's vision, imagination, and spirit that was built into the foundation of the company...if they turn their backs on that now, or if they feel like they're 'above' that just because of present day trends, then their 'progress' will surely lead to failure.

 

[netenyahoo]

This is a good topic! Change is usually good, but it is hard to lose old favorites. I miss the submarine ride and the skyway, but those things were just taken out and nothing has replaced them. I never went on Horizons or World of Motion, so I cant say anything about them, but I really like Test Track. Mission: Space looks to be really cool. I think Mr Toad's Wild Ride should have stayed. There is plenty of room in Fantasyland to put the Pooh ride somewhere. Maybe they should have ripped out the lagoon and put a ride there. Many of the recent rides like Aladdin and the two rides in Dinoland have been pretty lame, so I don't think there is much "progress." I look forward to Forbidden Mountain in AK though as that sounds like it will be an awesome ride.

 

[Snapper Bean]

I think for almost everybody but the most strident in their views on preserve v. progress, the issue is settled by the quality of the replacement attraction.

Test Track v. World of Motion: Loved both. Someone (maybe Grizzly Hall?) has asserted that they really could have kept both when the built Test Track which would have been preferable. That would have been a superior alternate riding attraction to the Junior Autopia planned. This is especially true in light of the loss of Dark Ride in Horizons.

Winnie The Pooh v. Mr. Toad: Frankly, I prefer the Pooh ride. Only the most diehard of Disney fans even know who Mr. Toad is.

Dreamflight v. Buzz Lightyear Space Ranger Spin: Although I enjoyed Dreamflight, riding Buzz Lightyear is more enjoyable to me.

Spaceship Earth v. Time Racers: Obviously, I withhold judgment until I see it but I do note that quality dark rides is what distinguishes Disney from most other parks. Plus, the history of communication is still a story that should be re-told.

Old Imagination v. New Imagination: I just rode New Imagination for the first time and was very disappointed. The original was more even and longer. I didn't see the need for an update, was rider volume on the original down when they first changed it? Right now Imagination is a big disappointment if only because it has so much unfulfilled potential.

20,000 Leagues v. Ariel's Grotto: I don't even view a character meet and greet as a replacement attraction. On the other hand 20,000 was very lame. It seems to me that something should be done here but I think we've discussed it about 300 times and as I recall there are construction issues (someone can refresh me on that, please).

If I were running Disney Parks and was cash strapped, I would consider, easily upgradeable rides. I can't imagine that it would be that hard to write and film new programs for Body Wars and Star Tours. Couldn't the Indy Speedway be converted into something more entertaining (A Herbie obstacle course or something?) .

Snapper Bean

 

[EchoOfOphelia]

This is a great thread, thanks for posting!

I used to consider myself a preservationist, I love the old rides like Horizons and World of Motion, etc... However now that they have taken my favorite rides away (also 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Mr. Toad, etc... ) ..now I could honestly care less.
Now I like the progress side of it. Especially when they have had some great rides put in their place like Test Track and Buzz Lightyear just to name a few. But they have also had some doozies like the re-do of Imagination.. not a good sign.

 

[Buford]

Thrill rides help the parks, but never lose sight of nostalgia! I can't even begin to list all the times I've heard guests remark - "oh, I remember that!!"

 

[MKCustodial]

You bring an interesting point, and one that brings up a particular notion. The "thrll people" don't seem to pay attention to what us "geezers" have to say. Sure, there are Conservatives, the ones that want all the classic attractions to stay exactly as they are. But there are those who are Preservationers, but looking for Progress. What I want to preserve is the MAGIC, the Disney way of life. Does Epcot need something? SURE, it's been needing something for years. But is the answer an open air coaster? HECK NO. Has WDI screwed Disney fans over the recent years? Yes, many times, but they've hit jackpot also. So I trust they are able to come up with the dark rides of the 21st century.

Bottom line: Disney should be able to PROGRESS without setting themselves a huge trap that will spring in about 10 years or so. They don't need to sell their soul for the demon of cheap thrills. Today's teens will be tomorrow's grandparents. And as someone said before, centering the parks on teens not only breaks up the "family fun" concept intended by Walt, but also set themselves on a group that has no real "money power".

 

[Buford]

Wow..I'm so happy you have worked for Disney, Rodrigo!!

 

[FourFourSeven]

Originally posted by pax_65

PRESERVE----------PROGRESS

Mr. Toad------------Pooh
JIYI------------------New Imagination
World of Motion---Test Track
Horizons------------Mission Space
Spaceship Earth---Time Racers
20,000 Leagues---Ariel's Grotto
Mission To Mars----Alien Encounter
If You Had Wings--Buzz Lightyear

Other PRESERVE: Skyway, Carousel of Progress, Timekeeper, Wonders of Life

Other PROGRESS: Spash Mountain, Tower of Terror, Rock n Roll, Forbidden Mountain

Great post! Let's take 'em 1 by 1:

Toad vs. Pooh - Clearly Pooh, in my opinion
JIYI vs New Imagination - while the old ride was better, I'm still of the opinion that it wasn't THAT good - I would have preferred progress, but a stronger new ride.

World of Motion vs. Test Track - Prefer Test Track. Old Epcot had way too many "ride-through and look" attractions.

Horizons vs. Mission:Space - I kind of liked Horizons many years ago, and the jury is out until M:S opens, but with the limited info I have, I'd strongly pick M:S.

Spaceship Earth vs. Time Racers - Jury is out. Not opposed to SE being redone, though I can understand the arguments in favor of keeping SE. I think I would vote for "something new," and let's see what turns out.

20,000 Leagues vs. Ariel's Grotto - not a fair comparision - 20,000 Leagues was not closed FOR Ariel, it was closed because it was too old and expensive (and not a great attraction). Ariel is something to put in its place because they had a big open space there. I'd love to see a new real attraction there.

Mars vs. AE - I'd choose AE - Mars bored me when I was a kid.

Wings vs. Buzz - Buzz is the clear winner.


Interesting - I thought I was more in the middle, but looking at my responses, I'm strongly in favor of "progress!"

 

[PrncssCinderEly]

Progress? Perservation?

Boy I never gave this any thought. But reading all the posts I can clearly see that I am so confused!

Mr. Toad - Loved should have kept
Pooh - should have made a new ride, not taken over one
JIYI - I don't remember to much
New Imagination - I don't remember to much either
World of Motion - What was this again?
Test Track - Great Addition!
Horizons - Can anyone explain to me which one this was?
Mission Space - Can not say anything yet about it
Spaceship Earth - OMG I can not believe they are changing this! Hello??? Can you say CLASSIC!!!!????!?!?!
Time Racers - Can not say anything yet about it
20,000 Leagues - Another One that Disney went nuts getting rid of....why oh why?
Ariel's Grotto - Is there really a point to this?
Mission To Mars - Was great...should have kept this
Alien Encounter - Should stay around...and should have been its own ride from the beginning, not taken over another one.
If You Had Wings - What the heck was this??
Buzz Lightyear - Cute...but not worth the wait...not even worth FastPASS
Space Mountain - Oh please update this!!! It is so boring now since RnR came out!
Carousel of Progress - PLEASE OH PLEASE BRING INTO THE 21st CENTURY!!!
Skyway - OH so great...and so relaxing...I loved gliding over the park.

Now these are just some of my opinons...and even though somethings I wish didn't change...when I get down there...even the Classics seem new to me.

 

[pax_65]

Good Points

Excellent discussion! I can see many of you feel as strongly about this as I do!

I agree with many of the points brought up. Don't change for the sake of change, put something there that will really add quality to the park, in the finest Disney tradition.

I wonder what Walt would say. We need to remember that in 1972, the Magic Kingdom was state-of-the-art. Some of those attractions are "classics" that should never change, but some of them should be (and have been) replaced.

Mr. Toad is a good example. I remember seeing a documentary on "funhouse rides" and Mr. Toad was mentioned as a ride that served as inspiration for rides like Indiana Jones. The ride has historical significance, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have been replaced. By the mid 90's it was tired. I personally couldn't believe the uproar when it was closed. Disney fans were talking about a letter-writing campaign, petitions, boycotts, etc! (They should start a museum for dead Disney rides! I'd go for a visit!)

As you might be able to guess, I'm in favor of "progress"... I think Disney is often afraid to change because they have such loyal fan base. Or maybe they think they can get away with NOT changing... I think maybe that's part of what's happened in Futureworld over the years.

Still, I'm not heartless. The ride I miss the most is "Carousel of Progress"... it has always been one of my favorites and has such a Disney theme. It's a CLASSIC. I don't necessarily blame Disney for closing it if nobody wants to ride it anymore. But personally, I miss it!

Jon

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

PrncssCinderEly, lemme see if i can help jog your memory...since you remember Mission to Mars, i assume you rode the attactions that you said you don't remember, but have just forgotten what they're all about.
World of Motion - took us through the history of the automobile. at the end of the attraction, it showed us models of 'future' cars (which have yet come to be)
Horizons - showed us 3 different possible scenerios for living in the future (desert, ocean, outer space) after showing us animatronic examples, gave us the decision to experience one of the three (really quite innovative...i hated to see it go)
If You Had Wings - i wasn't a Disney World attendee when this was around...i was there when it was Delta Dreamflight which was a cute pop-up book type attraction taking us through the years of flight. If You Had Wings, i assume, was just an earlier version of this.
hope this helps

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

while we're on the subject of CoP...lemme just weigh in on it here...in my opinion, it has been way too neglected. they could make it a fan favorite (and not just die-hard fan favorite) if they wanted to. all they'd have to do is pour some money into it, give the outside an updated look, give the inside an updated look, and make sure the animatronics were in top shape, and i think it'd have a lot more attendance, and a much better chance at surviving a good while longer.....i really think the problem is that Disney has been neglected attractions such as this one, and has been putting more and more money into their many celebrations.

 

[netenyahoo]

I also think that what Disney has done with CoP is a shame. I have never seen it as it is always closed. Fix it up so it can work all the time!

 

[Buford]

Mathematics and emotion... who woulda thunk!

 

[pax_65]

I liked World of Motion too, but it's not something I would ride more than once per trip. That's even more true with my kids - they get easily bored on rides like Spaceship Earth - I have to drag them on. On the other hand, they LOVE Test Track.

I don't really consider Test Track a "thrill" ride so much. It's not all that physical... not like Rock n Roller Coaster or anything. Test Track is pretty tame compared to most of the rides at IOA. Still, there's a real "fun" factor to the ride that World of Motion lacked. I do think that's progress.

Also (to address another post), Mission To Mars was really a lame ride. As I recall, you sat in a circle and the floor vibrated while they talked about space travel. I was embarrassed for Disney the first (and only) time I rode. Alien Encounter is a more exciting experience, although I'll admit it's not exactly a "Disney-like" ride and that ride isn't one of my favorites either.

I like your mathematical computations... I think each person has a formula of sorts to determine if they like an attraction. For me, the "fun" factor really has to be there. For example, I much prefer the experience in Norway (a balance of fun and learning) to the experience in Canada, China, or France (pretty much all learning).

Jon

 

[prberk]

Preservation AND Progress: That is the key, and always has been.

Walt himself set the formula: one side of his park was some form of "Frontierland" and "Liberty Square," where the adventure of history walked hand in hand with reverence for the lessons it gave; on the other side was always "Tomorrowland," where progress was king, and the hope for the future was heralded.

Of course, to get to all of it, you had to walk through a fanciful street that glorified the past but had a glorious vision ahead.

My point is simple: we need both, and each well done.

Walt's formula struck a chord in 1955. And his Magic Kingdoms around the world still do so today. It is not an accident. The formula is timeless and meaningful.

Walt Disney World expanded that formula to a grand scale. But even on that grand scale, the balance and sincere use of both preservation and progress are still key. As he most eloquently said, "In Florida, we have enough land to hold all of our dreams..."

 

[dreamer]

The other dialectic is

SENSE ---------- SENTIMENT

Paying the bills versus appeasing the melancholy, die-hard Disney lovers.