Primeval Whirl getting stuck

WeirdOne

New Member
Let me sart off by saying, I personally am all for Premevil Whirl.

As mentioned above, if you don't like it, don't ride it. It's not that hard. Pass it by. Ignore it. forget it. It's mean for the family crowd. YES FAMILY. My brother is 7 and he and his 5 year old friend rode it together and had a huge blast. 5 year old! So don't tell me it isn't family related. He was barely 48". Plus, 48" isn't that much.

Also, I've seen a 6 year old on R 'N' RC. I even asked him his age because he seemed little. He got off and I asked him how it was and he replied, "The H-O-L-L-Y-W-O-O-D Sign was so cool! The Donut. The Rails. The Signs. Oh My. Can we do it again daddy." He was excited. So, technically R 'N' RC is a FAMILY ride too.

Another perspective. R 'N' RC is also nothing but a clone merely dressed up. How come that isn't cheap. Let it go people. Just think, in 10 - 20 years it'll collapse on itself :lol: ;). Anyways, I will enjoy it to the fullest.

You guys have better things to do han protest a coaster that will leave in like 10 years. Just leave it alone.

- The WeirdOne :D
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by WeirdOne
Another perspective. R 'N' RC is also nothing but a clone merely dressed up. How come that isn't cheap. Let it go people. Just think, in 10 - 20 years it'll collapse on itself :lol: ;). Anyways, I will enjoy it to the fullest.

Rock 'n' Rollercoaster is not a clone. It was cloned, but it was the very first one, thus making it *not* a clone. RnRc collapse on itself?? what?? That won't happen.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
A clone doesn't have to be exactly the same. Usually slight difference like that do not mean it isn't a clone, it just means they made a few adjustments to adjust to the area, and such. This is Vekoma's doing, not Six Flags Holland's.

Also, keep in mind that Roller Coaster DataBase (RCDB.com) is not error free. I've caught many slight errors like that.
 

Castle Cake Apologist

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DigitalDisney
Engineering is amazing, ain't it? Also, there wern't a whole lot of steel coasters back in the 50s. It was primarily a world of wooden coasters, which have 100x the amount of supports as steel coasters.

My my my, lest we be forgetting that Disney INVENTED the steel coaster? I mean, can you even picture IoA w/o the steel coasters? I didn't think so.
They also created the first coaster which could run more then one car at a time. You think the lines are bad now? ha! (My, the Matterhorn did contribute quite a bit to thrill seekers, huh?)
Also, if not for WED Coasters (Yes, it IS a coaster design firm, so don't tell me they don't design any of their own coasters) there would be no indoor "Dark Coaster" concept. Disney started it first at WDW with Space Mountain. SO, I fail to see how Disney had not catered to thrill seekers and coaster enthusiasts. If not for Disney taking a forge ahead in the world of thrills, there would be no Hulk to vote for as top 10. Heck, there would be far less good coasters for these thrill seekers to seek. So next time you're going through that amazing corkscrew or that great loop, think of Disney... they put you there. ;)
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DisneyExpert
My my my, lest we be forgetting that Disney INVENTED the steel coaster? I mean, can you even picture IoA w/o the steel coasters? I didn't think so.
They also created the first coaster which could run more then one car at a time. You think the lines are bad now? ha! (My, the Matterhorn did contribute quite a bit to thrill seekers, huh?)
Also, if not for WED Coasters (Yes, it IS a coaster design firm, so don't tell me they don't design any of their own coasters) there would be no indoor "Dark Coaster" concept. Disney started it first at WDW with Space Mountain. SO, I fail to see how Disney had not catered to thrill seekers and coaster enthusiasts. If not for Disney taking a forge ahead in the world of thrills, there would be no Hulk to vote for as top 10. Heck, there would be far less good coasters for these thrill seekers to seek. So next time you're going through that amazing corkscrew or that great loop, think of Disney... they put you there. ;)

Lets not forget that Disney is only half responsible for the creation of the steel coaster. Arrow Dynamics was just as much a part of it, if not more. That is the only thing Disney has done for the coaster industry, which is VERY important, I admit. They also were the first to be able to run more than one car. But other than that, they haven't done anything else.

Disney did invented the "Dark coaster", but thats not a real contribution to the coaster industry itself.

Arrow Dynamics is the company responsible for most of the modern coaster designs.
 

Castle Cake Apologist

Well-Known Member
Oh, well... when you put it that way, as long as that's ALL Disney has contributed to the coaster industry. (Not like they RESHAPED the entire coaster experience :lol: ) So... what exactly has Universal contributed to the coaster industry might I ask? Green paint on the tracks? (Not that they even decided it would look like that). And PLEASE don't tell me they contributed the worlds first inverse close encounter coaster, because they didn't. B&M basicly said "Here's what we've got for you, take it or leave it".
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
I already said, ARROW is the company responsible. Not B&M, not Universal. Of course Universal hasn't done anything, and I never said they did.

Arrow:
Co-created steel coaster
Created the steel mine train coaster
Created first successful inversion
Created the Virginia Wheel (old fasioned version of Primeval Whirls)
Created the suspended coaster, which lead to the invention of the inverted coaster. (Contrary to popular belief, B&M should not get credit for the inverted coaster because they stole the idea from Vekoma, who used Arrow's suspended design as a template and modified it)
Created the Hyper Coaster

And so on.
 

Castle Cake Apologist

Well-Known Member
Let's not forget that Arrow didn't come up with the concept. Disney came up with the concept of building it out of steel because it was the only way that they could logicly put a coaster through and around a mountain without a ton of theme detracting supports all over the place. The only thing Arrow did was design the layout. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Big Thunder Mountain the first mine train coaster? I know for a fact that BTM was concepted, designed, and built by WED Coasters.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
It's Virginia Reel...by the way, Arrow needed money to do all of those things--if it weren't for disney funding, the steel coasters would have never come about--you don't do research for free--Walt had to first say "we want something new".
 

WeirdOne

New Member
Originally posted by Tom Morrow


Rock 'n' Rollercoaster is not a clone. It was cloned, but it was the very first one, thus making it *not* a clone. RnRc collapse on itself?? what?? That won't happen.

Tom Morrow. I was refering to Premevil Whirl collapsing on tiself. wild Mouse are very shaky, so after 10 years of neglect by Disney will = BOOM! But, again. I am only kidding.

As for R 'N' RC being a clone. That's not what I meant. I meant that look at how much it has been cloned. It mkaes this ride successful. Look at how MANY MORE times Premevil Whirl has been cloned. It's even more successful. Throw in some cheap cardboard cut-outs like R 'N' RC and you get a very successful ride. - The WeirdOne :fork:
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Rock 'n' Roller Coaster was not cheap by any accounts...between the ride building and getting Aerosmith to re-record songs...I don't even want to know how much they spent. The two-dimensional images are there for a reason--you cannot see the details on 3-D objects when you are going 60 mph, but do notice that the detail does increase as the ride progresses (and slows)...you get to the donut at the end which is, indeed, three-dimensional. Oh...need I mention the sound system on this ride...VERY pricey.
 

WeirdOne

New Member
Dude, DogsRule! I am on your side. I am ot against Premevil Whirl, R 'N' RC, etc. I am just saying, compare the two rides and you will get pretty similar results. That's all. - The WeirdOne :D
 

wdwcrazy

New Member
I am just saying, compare the two rides and you will get pretty similar results.
WHAT are you on? Are you trying to compare RnR and Primeval Whirl? :lol: Rock'N'Rollercoaster is a thrill ride, especailly by Disney standards. Does Primeval Whirl go upsidown and 0-60 in 2 seconds? RnR is actually themed unlike Primeval Whirl. Plus it has a theme that fits Disney-MGM Studios at well.
 

DigitalDisney

New Member
if it weren't for disney funding, the steel coasters would have never come about
You're crazy. You mean to tell me that now, some 40+ years in the future, we still wouldn't have steel coasters?

While Disney funding did contribute to the first steel coaster, it certainly hasn't contributed to the subsequent innovations by Arrow (pipeline, suspended, 4th dimension, hyper, etc.)

I bet Arrow already had a steel prototype coaster built, and they probably did the research well before Disney talked with them. That's how they do business now. SFMM didn't tell Arrow to make a 4th dimension coaster. Arrow had the 4th dimension prototype already built, and SFMM wanted to have a massively custom model of it. In fact, Arrow has several other types of coasters that aren't in a single park. Obviously, funding by one particular park didn't contribute to these unused types.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DogsRule!
and they apparently didn't do a great job of cloning it...it goes 2 mph slower and the track is 200 feet shorter...no clue how Six Flags Holland pulled that one off...However, I can see why disney enclosed this coaster...it's a real mess and would have looked atrocious unenclosed at MGM. http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery769.htm?Picture=1

http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery769.htm?Picture=8

Well, I’m pretty sure that at least part of that 200 feet comes from the loading and unloading stations that Disney uses. Because typically, Disney does not load and unload in the same place on its e-ticket attractions they have a separate piece of track for both of these. This is also what makes it possible for them to have up to 5 trains on the track at one time. That probably explains where at lest 50-75 feet of that track went…

I think these discussions would work much better if there were some way we could all talk back and forth. This conversation as well as others that the people in this group have been having has suffered a lot from it not being real time. It’s hard to discuss something like this where people have sharply contrasting views and have to try to explain themselves totally in a single post… I mean, I throw just about everything but the kitchen sink into a single post half the time and I still have a lot more I could say to further prove my points but even I know when enough is way too much… Just an observation… :rolleyes:
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
Arrow was chiefly involved in designing the transportation systems that would make many of the classic Disney rides work to Walt’s vision. Their relationship goes all the way back to Disney’s involvement in World’s Fair projects. Some examples are the boats used in rides like Small World, PoC and the ride you take in the Mexican pavilion in Epcot. They also designed the transportation system for many of Disney’s dark rides which were required to do complex things like hang from ceilings. They also built the first Dumbo style ride made for Disneyland along with the first Tea Cups ride also custom built for Disney. They built Disney’s first (and as far as I know, also their current) curtsey trams and were responsible for making the Doom Buggies of the Haunted Mansions (the precursor to the Disney Omni Mover systems) ride system. Back in those days, Imagineers were mostly Disney animators that had little to no experience in engineering. The Disney Co. was full of ideas but had no real idea on how to pull them off in a safe realistic manner. Enter Arrow. Prior to Disney, Arrow started out as a small machine shop that had nothing to do with rides at all. Its owners purchased a small amusement park as a financial investment only and the machine shop became responsible for the upkeep of the rides. They had designed a few small things for this park (which was aimed at young children) and had done a carousel for someone else. Walt Disney came to them with his ideas for a World’s Fair project and they agreed to work with him. That is how their relationship started. The Disney Co. came up with the ideas and then Arrow figured out how to construct them. They worked hand in hand the whole way and it was a sort of partnership. As a result Disney was pretty much responsible for Arrow becoming what it is today. Arrow did not have a design for a steel coaster prior to Disney’s involvement. In fact, Arrow had never even built a coaster before the Matterhorn. Disney came to them specifically with the idea of building a coaster and having it be made out of steel. Oddly, the Imagineers had more involvement in this new ride system than they had in the previous ones and this one was considerably more complex and dangerous. I think the Matterhorn is what actually launched the Imagineering division into full fledged ride system design….

It was after Disneyland became a success and Arrow’s involvement in the construction became known that Arrow started doing real contract work with amusement parks. So it is feasible to say that we wouldn’t have steel coasters today the way we do now if it weren’t for Disney. Would they have come up with the idea of steel coasters by now? It’s hard to say. At the time when the Matterhorn was built, coasters were not the big thing that they are today. In fact, up until the mid 70’s we were actually seeing a decline in the number of coasters in the world. Steel coasters were largely responsible for the resurgence of their popularity and had Disney and Arrow not pioneered this field, it might not have happened and we may not have ended up with the steel beasts that we have today or… Consider this: Steel on the first coaster was not used so that it could make fancy loops or do much of anything special that a wooden one couldn’t. It was used for the purpose of better hiding the track and supports and allowing for better theme to be added. Why is this a big deal? Because a coaster would have had to have been built out of steel in the first place before anyone would have tried using it for doing things like loops and quarskrews and before Disney, nobody seemed to see a need to build a coaster out of steel when it was easier and cheaper to do it with wood. Had the Matterhorn never been built and someone had eventually come up with the idea of using steel a decade or two later, we wouldn’t have half the steel coasters that we do today and most of what we would have would be much less innovative overall. That means probably no launch systems and possibly no suspended coasters. Things like that seem obvious in hindsight but so does the idea of a microprocessor over crystal tubes but had the person who invented it not come up with the microprocessor and we were left to wait for someone else, would we be at personal computers today having this conversation from different parts of the world? It’s hard to say, isn’t it?

Throughout its history, Disney has worked with companies like Arrow and Vekoma because they are willing to work directly with Disney in a more partner-like relationship. In an industry full of trade secrets that span everything from design to actual construction techniques, this is a rare thing to find. As one Disney Imagineer put it, they feel “no need to reinvent the wheel” so they choose to rely on other companies expertise when they can find someone that they think can do a better job with something than they can.

What does this have to do with Primeval Whirl? Well it doesn’t but neither has half of what’s been said in this thread already. :p ;)
 

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