PREDICT FROZEN IN EPCOT

[Sam Magic]

Then do so without once again resorting to another character overlay. Wether the ride is the greatest ever created is not the point. Wether it brings in a billion Elsa fans is not the point, the point, the problem I and others have is the lack of care/concern TDO has for the legacy of a place that is, IN MY OPINION, slowly losing it's identity. And WS isn't the problem, the front half needs the attention. Maelstrom, drawing on regional folk tales and myth, is certainly more Norwegian than Frozen will ever be.

EPCOT deserves better and Frozen deserves better and the guests/fans deserve better.

I understand and I do not disagree with it, but lets be honest, times change. I understand that WS was never fully meant to be a kids park, most families do not understand that, they come to all the parks because of the kids and are always complaining about the lack of things to do.

I'm sure many of you (if you have daughters or sisters) know what American Girl is. Well a few weeks ago I had to listen to my sister moan and groan about how they completely redesigned their Historical Line in order to appeal to modern girls. Things like more vibrant colors, different style of books, more interactive features, and tech integration all to appeal to modern age kids. As the point of WS and even Worlds Fairs begin to loose their points we need to be okay in certain regards to shift from letting people walk around in a museum like atmosphere and instead engage them or introduce 'anchors' to bring people in.

That is the advantage I see to this, a bigger Norway which will bring more people in and introduce people to wider Norwegian culture. While Frozen in ride form will not do that, the crowds it draws do that.

The only legacy that will be left behind is the death of a nearly 30+ year old attraction and enough buckets of money to stretch from Orlando to Los Angeles. The latter one is the only one Disney execs really care about.

 

[Phonedave]

ME

Because is Maelstrom really Norway? I mean yes I hate the Frozen replacement as much as the next guy, but the Maelstrom was already based on Norwegian Folklore. .

Vikings - factual history
Seafaring culture - factual history
Trolls - folklore
Deep sea oil production - factual modern.
The whole movie - dated, but factual

While people tend to concentrate on the trolls, Malestsrom is not all about the trolls.

-dave

 

[Voxel]

I understand and I do not disagree with it, but lets be honest, times change. I understand that WS was never fully meant to be a kids park, most families do not understand that, they come to all the parks because of the kids and are always complaining about the lack of things to do.

I'm sure many of you (if you have daughters or sisters) know what American Girl is. Well a few weeks ago I had to listen to my sister moan and groan about how they completely redesigned their Historical Line in order to appeal to modern girls. Things like more vibrant colors, different style of books, more interactive features, and tech integration all to appeal to modern age kids. As the point of WS and even Worlds Fairs begin to loose their points we need to be okay in certain regards to shift from letting people walk around in a museum like atmosphere and instead engage them or introduce 'anchors' to bring people in.

That is the advantage I see to this, a bigger Norway which will bring more people in and introduce people to wider Norwegian culture. While Frozen in ride form will not do that, the crowds it draws do that.

The only legacy that will be left behind is the death of a nearly 30+ year old attraction and enough buckets of money to stretch from Orlando to Los Angeles. The latter one is the only one Disney execs really care about.

Ummm, I am really getting annoyed with a few things in this statement. First off Norway is not nearly 30+ years old. The pavilion opened in 1988 (May) with Maelstrom opening in July. That by American math is 26 years old. For an attraction (at any park) 26 years is a long time to go without a major over haul, and while Maelstrom was unique and amazing it not at the caliber of Big Thunder Mountain and Space Mountain (Both of which has receive major overall and new ride systems in at least Disneyland).

I know I can speak to my history and @englanddg would prolly agree with me seeing as we have had this conversation before. There was a time when Epcot (WS included) was a very kids park. I remember seeing kids running about from site to site seeing this they have never seen before, I was one of them for a long time and I am sure many of you were too. Younger generation don't understand the uniqueness of what was WS because they see it everyday now. The WS was a way of exhibiting the world in culture in a united place, but the internet allows anyone to do that anywhere now. The world has become a closer place and the idea of going to Norway isn't as extreme as it was 26 years ago

Also in my time I decide to go back and read the Epcot dedication:
To all who come to this place of joy, hope of enterprise and concepts of a future that promises new and exciting benefits for all. May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire and above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere in the world.

Think on it. Using Frozen doesn't break away from this creed/dedication, in fact I believe in some areas it embraces it, at least more the Mexico's ride.

I maintain my prediction that the existing flume will be used. The construction of the original ride was quite substantial, and largely concrete based. They can't demolish that ride system, install a new one, and install the new show scenes in a year. The construction of the ride/show buildings is the fastest part of any Disney project...it's the ride systems and show components that take forever (see Little Mermaid, 7DMT, etc).

Concrete base doesn't mean anything when it comes to rides anymore as long as the original structure could support the weight and motion of the new system. A great example is Verbolten which is uses many of the same foundations of Big Bad Wolf

 

[Beholder]

I understand and I do not disagree with it, but lets be honest, times change. I understand that WS was never fully meant to be a kids park, most families do not understand that, they come to all the parks because of the kids and are always complaining about the lack of things to do.

I'm sure many of you (if you have daughters or sisters) know what American Girl is. Well a few weeks ago I had to listen to my sister moan and groan about how they completely redesigned their Historical Line in order to appeal to modern girls. Things like more vibrant colors, different style of books, more interactive features, and tech integration all to appeal to modern age kids. As the point of WS and even Worlds Fairs begin to loose their points we need to be okay in certain regards to shift from letting people walk around in a museum like atmosphere and instead engage them or introduce 'anchors' to bring people in.

That is the advantage I see to this, a bigger Norway which will bring more people in and introduce people to wider Norwegian culture. While Frozen in ride form will not do that, the crowds it draws do that.

The only legacy that will be left behind is the death of a nearly 30+ year old attraction and enough buckets of money to stretch from Orlando to Los Angeles. The latter one is the only one Disney execs really care about.

Updating American Girl actually makes my point. Update, not replace. The intent, design, and target audience is still the same, just modernizing certain aspects to appeal to a younger generation. They didn't replace American Girl with Hip Hop Girl or Frozen Girl or whatever they think is hot. They adapted the basic format with current tech. And that couldn't be done with Norway, why? And I seriously doubt that 10,000 little girls screaming to see Anna and Olaf will care one wit for the Norwegian culture, anymore than they already do. Why is it simply ok to shove this stuff wherever they think it remotely fits? You answered that question when you mentioned the money it will make in merch sales. The fact is, if they at all cared for a quality experience for the paying guests, then they would have cracked open the coffers and created something truly worthy of this next "classic". Also fact, they could've put this ANYWHERE and it would've been a success, but they're sticking it here because it's a cheap and halfhearted effort by those who could care less.

And obviously that's ok with quite a few people, which is why they can continue to do this.

 

[Sam Magic]

Updating American Girl actually makes my point. Update, not replace. The intent, design, and target audience is still the same, just modernizing certain aspects to appeal to a younger generation. They didn't replace American Girl with Hip Hop Girl or Frozen Girl or whatever they think is hot. They adapted the basic format with current tech. And that couldn't be done with Norway, why? And I seriously doubt that 10,000 little girls screaming to see Anna and Olaf will care one wit for the Norwegian culture, anymore than they already do. Why is it simply ok to shove this stuff wherever they think it remotely fits? You answered that question when you mentioned the money it will make in merch sales. The fact is, if they at all cared for a quality experience for the paying guests, then they would have cracked open the coffers and created something truly worthy of this next "classic". Also fact, they could've put this ANYWHERE and it would've been a success, but they're sticking it here because it's a cheap and halfhearted effort by those who could care less.

And obviously that's ok with quite a few people, which is why they can continue to do this.

How would you go about updating such a classic. Some things run their time and need to change, while I hate to see the Maelstrom go they need something that will renew interest in the park.

All we know at this point is that we are getting a frozen ride, beyond that we are in the dark. Personally I think that Norway will be expanded and renovated, but maybe that is just me being hopeful.

Ummm, I am really getting annoyed with a few things in this statement. First off Norway is not nearly 30+ years old. The pavilion opened in 1988 (May) with Maelstrom opening in July. That by American math is 26 years old. For an attraction (at any park) 26 years is a long time to go without a major over haul, and while Maelstrom was unique and amazing it not at the caliber of Big Thunder Mountain and Space Mountain (Both of which has receive major overall and new ride systems in at least Disneyland).

I know I can speak to my history and @englanddg would prolly agree with me seeing as we have had this conversation before. There was a time when Epcot (WS included) was a very kids park. I remember seeing kids running about from site to site seeing this they have never seen before, I was one of them for a long time and I am sure many of you were too. Younger generation don't understand the uniqueness of what was WS because they see it everyday now. The WS was a way of exhibiting the world in culture in a united place, but the internet allows anyone to do that anywhere now. The world has become a closer place and the idea of going to Norway isn't as extreme as it was 26 years ago

Also in my time I decide to go back and read the Epcot dedication:
To all who come to this place of joy, hope of enterprise and concepts of a future that promises new and exciting benefits for all. May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire and above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere in the world.

Think on it. Using Frozen doesn't break away from this creed/dedication, in fact I believe in some areas it embraces it, at least more the Mexico's ride.

I try to touch up on this in my original post, Epcot can never be what it used to be because of the internet. The best thing is for Disney to make it more interactive then it was before. Know it feels like your reading the snippets of info that come when you search on Google, it's time for Disney to click the link and open the page.

 

[Voxel]

I try to touch up on this in my original post, Epcot can never be what it used to be because of the internet. The best thing is for Disney to make it more interactive then it was before. Know it feels like your reading the snippets of info that come when you search on Google, it's time for Disney to click the link and open the page.

I think your going way to far, Epcot is what is always has been. A reflection of man-kind, but more then anything it's meant to inform and inspire and above all to bring about a sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape the world. The internet does not take away from this at all, we can be inspired by everything around. That's what Eng and I mean when we talk about innovation and the old days of Epcot. I remember when the Segway was basically unveiled at Epcot, imagining what else could come out in the World. Or seeing small watch phones being made by I believe Nokia at the time. This is what Epcot is about, driving imagination, pushing the boundaries of what humanity can do and bring a since of hope for tomorrow. Let's be honest Frozen is one of the first Disney films in a while (aside from brave) to not focus on love, but how sisters and come together over all odds. If that doesn't inspire hope then what does. Even further and, while not real magic, inspires people, whether you want to admit it or not. The saying Magic is just Science that is not understood.

In the end though we are all wrong in our belief of what Epcot is. Epcot is not about cultures, and what belongs in each land. Its about the hope for tomorrow. The world show case is just a small stepping stone to show that humanity is similar all around the world, and only by coming together will a positive future come.

This is why Illuminations is the best night time show, it represents this unity to bring about a brighter tomorrow.

 

[Beholder]

How would you go about updating such a classic. Some things run their time and need to change, while I hate to see the Maelstrom go they need something that will renew interest in the park.

All we know at this point is that we are getting a frozen ride, beyond that we are in the dark. Personally I think that Norway will be expanded and renovated, but maybe that is just me being hopeful.


I try to touch up on this in my original post, Epcot can never be what it used to be because of the internet. The best thing is for Disney to make it more interactive then it was before. Know it feels like your reading the snippets of info that come when you search on Google, it's time for Disney to click the link and open the page.

I'm sure Norway, like the rest of the world, has changed in the last quarter century, so it shouldn't be that hard. What happens when Morroco or Italy lives past their respective "fresh" dates? Toss them out? And EPCOT can't be what it was because if the internet? I can "ride" every single ride at MK, AK, DHS, universal, Seaworld, DL all on YouTube, does that mean they stop being what they were? Are museums now relegated to has been status? Why interest people in Norway now anyway, if you can simply take a virtual tour? I don't buy that argument at all. We have the internet therefore EPCOT is obsolete? IF anything, the internet and all the relevant technology should have a platform in EPCOT to tout it's amazing life changing look at the future.

 

[Rosko]

I predict Norway will become a mini Frozen themed Fantasyland instead of a Country in the World Showcase.

Oh yeah the comments here are the best... But I have to say I'm in on Norway becoming is own frozen fantasyland. And by in I mean I subscribe to the idea-not necessarily like it. EPCOT has always been about innovation and technology (Future World) and global harmony thru understanding and enjoyment of the countries cultures(World Showcase) now for Disney its become more about "how can we Pixarify this park or ride to make a buttload of cash selling cheap toys for 39.95??" (looking at you Anna and Elsa reversible dolls!) Sad but true state of affairs. As far as the Pixarification-i will give John Lasseter credit for being pretty damn visionary as far as imagineering goes.

 

[Rosko]

That, and at least the Mexico ride still references places in Mexico and parts of Mexican culture (to an extent). The references to the Disney Blog definitely imply that this Frozen ride will have neither for Norway.

But... But.... Frozen was INSPIRED BY Norway! Lol... It'd such a money grabbing crock of BS

 

[Rosko]

I predict that not having the Spirit of Norway at the end of the ride is going to make me cry.

*Quickly clicks on Martin's video site.*

I showed my two little cousins who are 10/12 the Living Seas video from Martins site and they asked what happened to the hydrolators because "THAT'S AWESOME!!! I WANNA GO ON THE ROCK ELEVATOR TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA!!".
We did the seas aqua tour and I pointed out how it all used to work...

 

[Tom]

I showed my two little cousins who are 10/12 the Living Seas video from Martins site and they asked what happened to the hydrolators because "THAT'S AWESOME!!! I WANNA GO ON THE ROCK ELEVATOR TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA!!".
We did the seas aqua tour and I pointed out how it all used to work...

Poor kids. They have indeed had a piece of Disney magic stolen away from them....before they even knew it.

 

[ArtificialArtist]

I understand and I do not disagree with it, but lets be honest, times change. I understand that WS was never fully meant to be a kids park, most families do not understand that, they come to all the parks because of the kids and are always complaining about the lack of things to do.

I'm sure many of you (if you have daughters or sisters) know what American Girl is. Well a few weeks ago I had to listen to my sister moan and groan about how they completely redesigned their Historical Line in order to appeal to modern girls. Things like more vibrant colors, different style of books, more interactive features, and tech integration all to appeal to modern age kids. As the point of WS and even Worlds Fairs begin to loose their points we need to be okay in certain regards to shift from letting people walk around in a museum like atmosphere and instead engage them or introduce 'anchors' to bring people in.

That is the advantage I see to this, a bigger Norway which will bring more people in and introduce people to wider Norwegian culture. While Frozen in ride form will not do that, the crowds it draws do that.

The only legacy that will be left behind is the death of a nearly 30+ year old attraction and enough buckets of money to stretch from Orlando to Los Angeles. The latter one is the only one Disney execs really care about.

I can agree with the general appeal statement, though you don't take into account that back in the days when Epcot was new, it did not wow us as kids because it catered to our age group in partiular. And that's where the mistake lies in Epcot's current creative perspective.


What i'm saying is, like with JIYI Disney basically makes the statement that all kids are dumb nowadays.. ("Well, there doesn't seem to be any imagination in you according to this fine Imagination detector. Lets change this") If you have low education standards and a uneducated youth, what do you do educationwise (from a governmental perspective)? You counter it with a higher budget and better learning standards... But Epcot now follows the principle "Dumbed down for the numbed down"

I'm not saying there is a lower learning standard now,
or that children in general are stupider than the previous generation was 20 years ago,
actually it's the contrary.
And up to this day, not for one second,
the people who are in creative control over Epcot have thought of the fact,
that maybe the attendance has been stagnating so much because they
kept moving away from a once ingenious concept. And you know why?
Because they are basically clueless about what they are doing.
Epcot is a unique concept and thus should not be treated like an other park.
What you don't learn in "business school" is how the statistics and numbers can be misleading.
If Epcot had kept staying heads-on with the changing technology and kept
true to the concept we might have an even better attendance.
(Which should not be the main focus about Epcot, as long as it's in the black)
Over the past 20 years a lot of people have lost their faith in Epcot, that,
however, is not shown in the statistics, it still affects attendance on an absolute scale.
And it alters the general demographics. My father used to like to go to Epcot because he didn't like all the "kiddie-ish cartoony stuff" that MK has to offer. He liked it because it was more for grown-ups. And me, i loved to play around with all the technological marvels. Touchscreens, sensory control, VR, robotics programming, the principle of the internet and so on. The rides left a lasting impression on me, too. Up to this day the core concepts of Horizons and JII influence me. The message of JII did actually give a lot of kids faith in their creative abilities, and, thus, made them pursue their abilities further. I can't see how this should be different today. There is still an "Imagination" pavilion... but there's no Imagination anymore...

And that.... is just wrong..



I just thought of a good example.
Say there are two women standing in front of you. One dressed in what she feels comfortable with and the other is dressed to "appeal". Who, as a person, would you have a higher opinion of?
I also know which one would have an appeal on the majority of people.
The mix of opinion and popularity needs to be right, and it's waaaay off with Epcot.

 

[Sam Magic]

I'm sure Norway, like the rest of the world, has changed in the last quarter century, so it shouldn't be that hard. What happens when Morroco or Italy lives past their respective "fresh" dates? Toss them out? And EPCOT can't be what it was because if the internet? I can "ride" every single ride at MK, AK, DHS, universal, Seaworld, DL all on YouTube, does that mean they stop being what they were? Are museums now relegated to has been status? Why interest people in Norway now anyway, if you can simply take a virtual tour? I don't buy that argument at all. We have the internet therefore EPCOT is obsolete? IF anything, the internet and all the relevant technology should have a platform in EPCOT to tout it's amazing life changing look at the future.

You are thinking in a face value way. Sure I can not ride the rides, but EPCOT is not about rides, it is (like Voxel said) discovering the differences and similarities within humanity that are united through a common hope for the future. Today the internet not only provides us the opportunity to learn about other nations, but to meet more and more people. The internet is leading the way to a more globalized world. This means EPCOT needs to change, it needs to update, it needs to add.

 

[Sam Magic]

I can agree with the general appeal statement, though you don't take into account that back in the days when Epcot was new, it did not wow us as kids because it catered to our age group in partiular. And that's where the mistake lies in Epcot's current creative perspective.


What i'm saying is, like with JIYI Disney basically makes the statement that all kids are dumb nowadays.. ("Well, there doesn't seem to be any imagination in you according to this fine Imagination detector. Lets change this") If you have low education standards and a uneducated youth, what do you do educationwise (from a governmental perspective)? You counter it with a higher budget and better learning standards... But Epcot now follows the principle "Dumbed down for the numbed down"

I'm not saying there is a lower learning standard now,
or that children in general are stupider than the previous generation was 20 years ago,
actually it's the contrary.
And up to this day, not for one second,
the people who are in creative control over Epcot have thought of the fact,
that maybe the attendance has been stagnating so much because they
kept moving away from a once ingenious concept. And you know why?
Because they are basically clueless about what they are doing.
Epcot is a unique concept and thus should not be treated like an other park.
What you don't learn in "business school" is how the statistics and numbers can be misleading.
If Epcot had kept staying heads-on with the changing technology and kept
true to the concept we might have an even better attendance.
(Which should not be the main focus about Epcot, as long as it's in the black)
Over the past 20 years a lot of people have lost their faith in Epcot, that,
however, is not shown in the statistics, it still affects attendance on an absolute scale.
And it alters the general demographics. My father used to like to go to Epcot because he didn't like all the "kiddie-ish cartoony stuff" that MK has to offer. He liked it because it was more for grown-ups. And me, i loved to play around with all the technological marvels. Touchscreens, sensory control, VR, robotics programming, the principle of the internet and so on. The rides left a lasting impression on me, too. Up to this day the core concepts of Horizons and JII influence me. The message of JII did actually give a lot of kids faith in their creative abilities, and, thus, made them pursue their abilities further. I can't see how this should be different today. There is still an "Imagination" pavilion... but there's no Imagination anymore...

And that.... is just wrong..



I just thought of a good example.
Say there are two women standing in front of you. One dressed in what she feels comfortable with and the other is dressed to "appeal". Who, as a person, would you have a higher opinion of?
I also know which one would have an appeal on the majority of people.
The mix of opinion and popularity needs to be right, and it's waaaay off with Epcot.

I can get with this, I see what your saying and I agree. EPCOT needs to evolve to what it can be, not devolve into a regular old park. However, I don't think Frozen will turn it into a regular old park. As seen in the SA Disney Sea 'Frozen' Land challenge it is possible to combine Norse/Scandanavian culture (which the Norway pavilion was supposed to be anyways) with Frozen in a tasteful and unique way.

 

[Beholder]

You are thinking in a face value way. Sure I can not ride the rides, but EPCOT is not about rides, it is (like Voxel said) discovering the differences and similarities within humanity that are united through a common hope for the future. Today the internet not only provides us the opportunity to learn about other nations, but to meet more and more people. The internet is leading the way to a more globalized world. This means EPCOT needs to change, it needs to update, it needs to add.

And Frozen will help me discover the differences and similarities within humanity?

As an aside, I seriously have trouble believing that humanity as a whole has this one, unifying hope.

 

[Sam Magic]

And Frozen will help me discover the differences and similarities within humanity?

As an aside, I seriously have trouble believing that humanity as a whole has this one, unifying hope.

I think it does in different ways *cough*love of family and sticking with each other which is the films main theme*cough*

I do think humanity has one unifying hope, we may express it in different ways, but the future keeps us going. It inspires us and unifies us. Look at the US, look at Europe, common hopes for the future have not only united them but brought them together.

 

[Beholder]

I think it does in different ways *cough*love of family and sticking with each other which is the films main theme*cough*

I do think humanity has one unifying hope, we may express it in different ways, but the future keeps us going. It inspires us and unifies us. Look at the US, look at Europe, common hopes for the future have not only united them but brought them together.

The older I get the more I realize that sometimes the only thing people everywhere have in common is self preservation by any means possible. Half the population would more than happy if the other half simply ceased to exist. There is no dream of people living together in warm loving peace. It's peace the way "I" say we'll have peace. You'll be happy when "I" say it's ok for you to be happy. Everyone has an agenda, a particular motivation for wanting what they want.

 

[Rosko]

Overlay, interactive queue geared towards pre-teens and gift shop loaded with everything made in china that will not include much by way of ethnic and unique items.

When I was there in September I noticed two things. First there was a Norwegian man with white hair arranging the corner of the gift shop with some Disney type a bigwig from merchandising I would assume wearing a suit and catering to the man's everywhere and there was a picture of the guy next to the lotions and perfume she was showing can't remember the name of them but the price tags are ridiculous this was in the gift shop directly to your left if you're standing in the queue for maelstrom. He was definitely authentic Norwegian! he other thing I'll miss that's authentic is how friendly the Norwegian girls are when you walk into either the bakery or the stores I think one was trying to pick me up even though I was asking for a troll doll for my wife! ;-p

 

[Rosko]

Then do so without once again resorting to another character overlay. Wether the ride is the greatest ever created is not the point. Wether it brings in a billion Elsa fans is not the point, the point, the problem I and others have is the lack of care/concern TDO has for the legacy of a place that is, IN MY OPINION, slowly losing it's identity. And WS isn't the problem, the front half needs the attention.

EPCOT deserves better and Frozen deserves better and the guests/fans deserve better.

THIS-the FRONT half I was devastated when I went.. Everything either pixarified or deteriorating... Wasting away... Where's the "OT" in EPCOT!! OF TOMORROW!

 

[Rosko]

I can get with this, I see what your saying and I agree. EPCOT needs to evolve to what it can be, not devolve into a regular old park.

Too late for EPCOT to evolve into what it CAN be... There's too many hotels and not enough land left for it to be the size and scope Walt dreamed of... And these days the "American creative centers and industries" aren't spending $$ to sponsor pavillions like Walt envisioned and they once did... No corporate/government sponsor=Pixarification... Just ask The Living Seas... United Technologies had the chance to hit it out of the park with the original designs/ concepts for SeaBase alpha(you can google this or find some of what I allude to on Martin Smith's AWESOME tribute video... Boy do Disney Park fans worldwide owe him a huge debt of gratitude btw!) But as usual the problem is a financial United Technologies didn't want to spend the money to blow away every other pavilion I have the best one and obviously they also pulled out and guess what happened goodbye SeaBase Alpha, hello Nemo... Although I DID see someone in the VIP lounge next to a big piano when I was in the ocean tank!