Possible Attraction in France pavilion (Epcot) Update - new Attraction Greenlit

[GoofGoof]

Japan's attraction isn't entirely new R&D.

Are you talking about BatB in Tokyo or a new ride for the Japan pavilion at EPCOT?

 

[GoofGoof]

I was talking about rides and meet and greets. I think Jasmine fits in Morocco just fine. I think Anna and Elsa fit in Norway just fine.
I realize that some people don't.

The meet and greets don't bother me as much. Replacing a ride that was actually about Norway with a ride that has nothing to do with Norway...that's the problem.

What I don't understand is comparing the 2 to things such as Tarzan or the Avengers. That's a giant leap from any of the 3 that I just mentioned.

Adding the Avengers to the American pavilion would be pretty much the same thing as adding Frozen in Norway. The only connection between the ride and the country would be the movies happen to be based in the those countries (or in the case of Frozen a Norway like country). It's not a giant leap at all.

For a kid, and adults, to be in a place where fantasy and reality collide-seeing a character that is representative of a country..but still fictional..can be interesting, relatable, and entertaining. Maybe a kid wants to learn more about Norway after seeing Anna and Elsa, maybe the family then decides to vacation or cruise there. Maybe seeing Jasmine in Morocco will make a kid interested in that culture, and they'll learn about it once arrive home..maybe a kid who typically eats burgers and hot dogs will want to eat at Restaurant Marrakesh as a result, and then becomes a more adventurous eater.

This was the original spirit of what EPCOT WS was all about, but Maelstrom did a much better job of highlighting the culture and people of Norway. Are Anna and Elsa really representative of the country of Norway? I've said this a number of times before, but we often think we need to dumb things down for kids more than we really do. Kids pick up a lot more than adults give them credit for. Most kids don't need cartoons to make them interested in these places. I have no problem adding toons to WS if they are complimentary to the overall pavilion but what happened in Norway is not that.

 

[PorterRedkey]

Japan's attraction isn't entirely new R&D.

What is it based on... Honey pots? That tech seems a little old.

 

[21stamps]

The meet and greets don't bother me as much. Replacing a ride that was actually about Norway with a ride that has nothing to do with Norway...that's the problem.

Adding the Avengers to the American pavilion would be pretty much the same thing as adding Frozen in Norway. The only connection between the ride and the country would be the movies happen to be based in the those countries (or in the case of Frozen a Norway like country). It's not a giant leap at all.

This was the original spirit of what EPCOT WS was all about, but Maelstrom did a much better job of highlighting the culture and people of Norway. Are Anna and Elsa really representative of the country of Norway? I've said this a number of times before, but we often think we need to dumb things down for kids more than we really do. Kids pick up a lot more than adults give them credit for. Most kids don't need cartoons to make them interested in these places. I have no problem adding toons to WS if they are complimentary to the overall pavilion but what happened in Norway is not that.

Speaking as someone who is extremely passionate about travel, cultures, and geography, please just hear me out for a moment.

On my son's 4th birthday I gifted him with a subscription to something called Little Passports. We're still going strong on it today. Here's what it is-
The first package arrives with a blue suitcase, world map, "passport", a few other items, and a postcard from "Sam and Sophia". Sam and Sophia travel around the world on their Vespa and once per month send a package from the current country they are visiting. That package contains a postcard highlighting the country's flag, bird, flower etc..info about them as well..a sticker to place on his map in the correct location and continent, some kind of souvenir relating to the country i.e. Amethyst from Brazil, a "stamp" for his passport, and a few worksheets and games pertaining to the country, words to learn from the language, as well as a photo of them on their Vespa with a national landmark in the background.

Sam and Sophia are obviously completely fictional characters and it is completely unrealistic to travel the world on a moped, not to mention that these are 2 children traveling alone.
Could I have done the same type of lessons without them? Sure. Do they make the learning more interesting? Heck yes!

Do kids need cartoons to learn? Nope.
Do cartoons or fictional characters make learning more relatable and fun? Yes.

I don't think that's not giving kid's credit or dumbing them down. I think that's just making things fun for them. Imagination is an important part of life. Imagination and learning together- again, no downside that I can see.

 

[PorterRedkey]

Speaking as someone who is extremely passionate about travel, cultures, and geography, please just hear me out for a moment.

On my son's 4th birthday I gifted him with a subscription to something called Little Passports. We're still going strong on it today. Here's what it is-
The first package arrives with a blue suitcase, world map, "passport", a few other items, and a postcard from "Sam and Sophia". Sam and Sophia travel around the world on their Vespa and once per month send a package from the current country they are visiting. That package contains a postcard highlighting the country's flag, bird, flower etc..info about them as well..a sticker to place on his map in the correct location and continent, some kind of souvenir relating to the country i.e. Amethyst from Brazil, a "stamp" for his passport, and a few worksheets and games pertaining to the country, words to learn from the language, as well as a photo of them on their Vespa with a national landmark in the background.

Sam and Sophia are obviously completely fictional characters and it is completely unrealistic to travel the world on a moped, not to mention that these are 2 children traveling alone.
Could I have done the same type of lessons without them? Sure. Do they make the learning more interesting? Heck yes!

Do kids need cartoons to learn? Nope.
Do cartoons or fictional characters make learning more relatable and fun? Yes.

I don't think that's not giving kid's credit or dumbing them down. I think that's just making things fun for them. Imagination is an important part of life. Imagination and learning together- again, no downside that I can see.

So it is like the KidCot Program at Epcot or the Wilderness Explorers at AK?

 

[GoofGoof]

Speaking as someone who is extremely passionate about travel, cultures, and geography, please just hear me out for a moment.

On my son's 4th birthday I gifted him with a subscription to something called Little Passports. We're still going strong on it today. Here's what it is-
The first package arrives with a blue suitcase, world map, "passport", a few other items, and a postcard from "Sam and Sophia". Sam and Sophia travel around the world on their Vespa and once per month send a package from the current country they are visiting. That package contains a postcard highlighting the country's flag, bird, flower etc..info about them as well..a sticker to place on his map in the correct location and continent, some kind of souvenir relating to the country i.e. Amethyst from Brazil, a "stamp" for his passport, and a few worksheets and games pertaining to the country, words to learn from the language, as well as a photo of them on their Vespa with a national landmark in the background.

Sam and Sophia are obviously completely fictional characters and it is completely unrealistic to travel the world on a moped, not to mention that these are 2 children traveling alone.
Could I have done the same type of lessons without them? Sure. Do they make the learning more interesting? Heck yes!

Do kids need cartoons to learn? Nope.
Do cartoons or fictional characters make learning more relatable and fun? Yes.

I don't think that's not giving kid's credit or dumbing them down. I think that's just making things fun for them. Imagination is an important part of life. Imagination and learning together- again, no downside that I can see.

I don't disagree with any of that and it sounds like a nice idea. They had the Agent P thing in WS which was something similar for kids. That was great idea and I had no issue with it. You aren't getting what I'm saying about Norway. Frostrom is a book report type ride with music and characters from the movie Frozen telling the story of those characters. The dumbing down I'm talking about is assuming kids were not interested in learning about Norway they just want to go on a Frozen ride and meet the characters from the movie.

Sam and Sophia from your story above is exactly what I'm saying here:

What works for me is 3 Caballeros in Mexico. It features characters but uses them to entertain while still educating guests about the host country. It's a good way to incorporate characters but keep to the original intent of WS. Frozen fails at that completely.

 

[The_Jobu]

On my son's 4th birthday I gifted him with a subscription to something called Little Passports. We're still going strong on it today. Here's what it is-
The first package arrives with a blue suitcase, world map, "passport", a few other items, and a postcard from "Sam and Sophia". Sam and Sophia travel around the world on their Vespa and once per month send a package from the current country they are visiting. That package contains a postcard highlighting the country's flag, bird, flower etc..info about them as well..a sticker to place on his map in the correct location and continent, some kind of souvenir relating to the country i.e. Amethyst from Brazil, a "stamp" for his passport, and a few worksheets and games pertaining to the country, words to learn from the language, as well as a photo of them on their Vespa with a national landmark in the background.

I think this is a good example of Goofgoof's point about the differences between the use of characters in Mexico vs Norway. In Mexico and this Sam and Sophia programs, the characters only serve to provide an infodump on the country in question, they're not posing as representatives of the countries. Compare this to FEA which serves to provide an excuse to play songs in a snowy setting without teaching anything.

 

[DDLand]

Speaking as someone who is extremely passionate about travel, cultures, and geography, please just hear me out for a moment.

On my son's 4th birthday I gifted him with a subscription to something called Little Passports. We're still going strong on it today. Here's what it is-
The first package arrives with a blue suitcase, world map, "passport", a few other items, and a postcard from "Sam and Sophia". Sam and Sophia travel around the world on their Vespa and once per month send a package from the current country they are visiting. That package contains a postcard highlighting the country's flag, bird, flower etc..info about them as well..a sticker to place on his map in the correct location and continent, some kind of souvenir relating to the country i.e. Amethyst from Brazil, a "stamp" for his passport, and a few worksheets and games pertaining to the country, words to learn from the language, as well as a photo of them on their Vespa with a national landmark in the background.

Sam and Sophia are obviously completely fictional characters and it is completely unrealistic to travel the world on a moped, not to mention that these are 2 children traveling alone.
Could I have done the same type of lessons without them? Sure. Do they make the learning more interesting? Heck yes!

Do kids need cartoons to learn? Nope.
Do cartoons or fictional characters make learning more relatable and fun? Yes.

I don't think that's not giving kid's credit or dumbing them down. I think that's just making things fun for them. Imagination is an important part of life. Imagination and learning together- again, no downside that I can see.

Because kids learn extensively about Sami Culture as they ride Frozen Ever After?

They're not even trying.

It's one thing to say animated characters can be used as teaching tools, it's another entirely to find a deeper meaning in FEA or the Rat.

World Showcase was never designed explicitly for children either. It turns out many adults frequented Norway before its unfortunate demise. Attractions are not just for kids. They should be family friendly and welcoming, but also inclusive too. World Showcase is actually becoming exclusive.

A unique breed of storytelling is fading away.

 

[DDLand]

Japan's attraction isn't entirely new R&D.

Interesting. Thanks for pointing us in that direction!

Are you at liberty to say whether it's ride vehicles or content that would be repeated?

If not, you know where to find us later...

 

[ToTBellHop]

I find myself agreeing. At this point so long as it is done tastefully, and they don't touch The American Adventure, I don't care what they put in WS

Something like Rat, especially as an addition, works for me.

 

[21stamps]

So it is like the KidCot Program at Epcot or the Wilderness Explorers at AK?

I've never done the KidCot stations, but no, it's nothing like Wilderness Explorers.

Because kids learn extensively about Sami Culture as they ride Frozen Ever After?

They're not even trying.

It's one thing to say animated characters can be used as teaching tools, it's another entirely to find a deeper meaning in FEA or the Rat.

World Showcase was never designed explicitly for children either. It turns out many adults frequented Norway before its unfortunate demise. Attractions are not just for kids. They should be family friendly and welcoming, but also inclusive too. World Showcase is actually becoming exclusive.

A unique breed of storytelling is fading away.

Because if a little 4 or 5 year old girl is visiting FEA in Norway..and enjoys everything else about the pavilion, relating the two together, then she may be more inclined to enjoy that area again..maybe learn something new, try a new food..just as I said before.
The entire point of my example was that learning can have aspects of fiction. A fictional story ride inside of the Norway pavilion isn't really harming or insulting anyone's intelligence..it's just a bit of whimsy
fun in the mix..especially for kids..but not only for kids.

As far as FEA being for kids, most adults that I know enjoyed it very much. We couldn't get a FP so I can't give my opinion, but I would have liked to have seen it.

I don't disagree with any of that and it sounds like a nice idea. They had the Agent P thing in WS which was something similar for kids. That was great idea and I had no issue with it. You aren't getting what I'm saying about Norway. Frostrom is a book report type ride with music and characters from the movie Frozen telling the story of those characters. The dumbing down I'm talking about is assuming kids were not interested in learning about Norway they just want to go on a Frozen ride and meet the characters from the movie.

Sam and Sophia from your story above is exactly what I'm saying here:

I just don't see it as harmful or some kind of crime against the world showcase. However, like I said earlier.. people have different opinions on the subject. We probably won't ever completely agree on if Frozen is or isn't a fit.

ETA- my nephew is a great example. He's 3. He idolizes Hulk. He won't eat peas or spinach. My sister and brother in law told him that Hulk is big, strong, and green because he eats green vegetables. Guess what? My nephew eats them like crazy now. They used a fictional story to get a result.
Maybe a Mom in Norway can convince her daughter to try something because Elsa likes it.
No harm. No foul.

 

[jt04]

Japan's attraction isn't entirely new R&D.

Pachinko-The Ride

Seriously though, this is getting interesting.

 

[GoofGoof]

I've never done the KidCot stations, but no, it's nothing like Wilderness Explorers.


Because if a little 4 or 5 year old girl is visiting FEA in Norway..and enjoys everything else about the pavilion, relating the two together, then she may be more inclined to enjoy that area again..maybe learn something new, try a new food..just as I said before.
The entire point of my example was that learning can have aspects of fiction. A fictional story ride inside of the Norway pavilion isn't really harming or insulting anyone's intelligence..it's just a bit of whimsy
fun in the mix..especially for kids..but not only for kids.

As far as FEA being for kids, most adults that I know enjoyed it very much. We couldn't get a FP so I can't give my opinion, but I would have liked to have seen it.



I just don't see it as harmful or some kind of crime against the world showcase. However, like I said earlier.. people have different opinions on the subject. We probably won't ever completely agree on if Frozen is or isn't a fit.

ETA- my nephew is a great example. He's 3. He idolizes Hulk. He won't eat peas or spinach. My sister and brother in law told him that Hulk is big, strong, and green because he eats green vegetables. Guess what? My nephew eats them like crazy now. They used a fictional story to get a result.
Maybe a Mom in Norway can convince her daughter to try something because Elsa likes it.
No harm. No foul.

I don't mind having this discussion or debate but I'm guessing others are getting sick of it so here is my last attempt to explain my point. I am not saying that adding Frostrom to WS is doing any harm to any person. People seem to really like it so it's a big success. That's great. The discussion at hand was around whether adding a Frozen ride to Norway fits in the theme of WS. It does not. There's really no debate there. Now if you want to argue that the theme doesn't matter or that moving away from the original theme is a good idea that's fine and a valid opinion. It doesn't change the fact that the ride still doesn't fit. All of the stuff about moms in Norway and kids eating foods is irrelevant to the discussion on whether Frozen fits the original theme of WS. As far as other IP I think it depends on the use and the attractions proposed. IMHO it also depends if it's additive to the pavilion or replacing something that is already there. For instance Rat in France is a lot more palatable if they add it and still keep Impressions. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Figment Newton]

I don't think there was one for France, but weren't there at least 2 proposed rides that got dropped when Epcot opened? I think one was maybe a Mt Fuji ride in Japan but Kodak didn't approve? Could be wrong about these old rumors, but maybe one of these could be a possibility for an original and IP-less attraction to add to WS. Now that I'm thinking, the other rumored ride may have been Germany?

 

[GoofGoof]

I don't think there was one for France, but weren't there at least 2 proposed rides that got dropped when Epcot opened? I think one was maybe a Mt Fuji ride in Japan but Kodak didn't approve? Could be wrong about these old rumors, but maybe one of these could be a possibility for an original and IP-less attraction to add to WS. Now that I'm thinking, the other rumored ride may have been Germany?

Rhine River Journey in Germany. There was also a plan for a Brazil pavilion with some concept art. I think @marni1971 posted some old concept art at some point on these boards in the past.

Edit: cruise not journey. I've got blue aliens on the mind

 

[Figment Newton]

I don't think there was one for France, but weren't there at least 2 proposed rides that got dropped when Epcot opened? I think one was maybe a Mt Fuji ride in Japan but Kodak didn't approve? Could be wrong about these old rumors, but maybe one of these could be a possibility for an original and IP-less attraction to add to WS. Now that I'm thinking, the other rumored ride may have been Germany?

Yes, just looked it up quickly on Google (don't know how legitimate sources are) and there was Mt Fuji roller coaster planned for Japan and Rhine River boat ride for Germany. Disney would probably never look back at ideas like these but interesting to think about.

 

[21stamps]

I don't mind having this discussion or debate but I'm guessing others are getting sick of it so here is my last attempt to explain my point. I am not saying that adding Frostrom to WS is doing any harm to any person. People seem to really like it so it's a big success. That's great. The discussion at hand was around whether adding a Frozen ride to Norway fits in the theme of WS. It does not. There's really no debate there. Now if you want to argue that the theme doesn't matter or that moving away from the original theme is a good idea that's fine and a valid opinion. It doesn't change the fact that the ride still doesn't fit. All of the stuff about moms in Norway and kids eating foods is irrelevant to the discussion on whether Frozen fits the original theme of WS. As far as other IP I think it depends on the use and the attractions proposed. IMHO it also depends if it's additive to the pavilion or replacing something that is already there. For instance Rat in France is a lot more palatable if they add it and still keep Impressions. Again, just my opinion.

I guess the whole subject of fitting the theme or not just doesn't bother me. I don't think it's perfect, but I don't think it's out of place. Just my opinion, I realize yours is different.

Rhine River Journey in Germany. There was also a plan for a Brazil pavilion with some concept art. I think @marni1971 posted some old concept art at some point on these boards in the past.

Edit: cruise not journey. I've got blue aliens on the mind

A Brazil Pavilion would be so much fun. That's something I would love to see.

 

[GoofGoof]

I guess the whole subject of fitting the theme or not just doesn't bother me. I don't think it's perfect, but I don't think it's out of place. Just my opinion, I realize yours is different.



A Brazil Pavilion would be so much fun. That's something I would love to see.

I found the thread. It was @Lee who originally posted it:

 

[lazyboy97o]

The Brazil Pavilion was a rather recent endeavor, not one of the lost pavilions announced back in 1982.

 

[21stamps]

I found the thread. It was @Lee who originally posted it:

View attachment 184476

Wow. That would be awesome. So many possibilities there. Food, drinks, dancing, soccer. Also, absolutely perfect to theme a festival around lol. No but seriously..Brazil would be great. I wonder why they decided against it.