Poll: Disneyland has outgrown Sleeping Beauty Castle

Disneyland has outgrown Sleeping Beauty Castle

  • Yes

    Votes: 48 30.0%
  • No

    Votes: 112 70.0%

  • Total voters
    160

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
You and I both know you wouldn’t sign off on that. It’s one thing to state something like this in a fan forum but real world if they come with you with some “better” plans for POTC and HM and you had the power to greenlight the project you would not. Also I think the key word you said was “replace” and not necessarily “better.” And if you did greenlight it, who is this team that you’re trusting as you sacrifice two of Disneyland’s most historic and signature attractions?
I can’t make declarative statements about a complete unknown. Not being open to new ideas is a big problem with themed entertainment and why the industry has willfully placed itself in a position subservient to other creative mediums.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I can’t make declarative statements about a complete unknown. Not being open to new ideas is a big problem with themed entertainment and why the industry has willfully placed itself in a position subservient to other creative mediums.

But you did by saying they should be replaced if something “better” came along.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I didn’t say they should be replaced, I said they should be open for replacement.

Right... if something “better” came along. Since you don’t know what those better plans would be and they don’t exist, there is no reason you couldn’t answer my hypothetical question.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Right... if something “better” came along. Since you don’t know what those better plans would be and they don’t exist, there is no reason you couldn’t answer my hypothetical question.
Again, your hypothetical is about making a value judgement on a complete unknown. I don’t know what would be better nor do I know who would come up with that better, but I’m not going to reject something in the future because I haven’t thought of it now.
 

shortstop

Well-Known Member
Again, your hypothetical is about making a value judgement on a complete unknown. I don’t know what would be better nor do I know who would come up with that better, but I’m not going to reject something in the future because I haven’t thought of it now.
Couldn’t one make the argument that it is impossible to remove attractions like Pirates and Mansion and replace them with something better? I just can’t see any circumstance in which replacing these attractions is the best course of action. I think it’s okay to declare certain things as “sacred” within a theme park.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Couldn’t one make the argument that it is impossible to remove attractions like Pirates and Mansion and replace them with something better? I just can’t see any circumstance in which replacing these attractions is the best course of action. I think it’s okay to declare certain things as “sacred” within a theme park.
The problem with declaring it impossible is that this is based on only what we can think of, as though we are the limits of imagination. I can’t think of the circumstances either but some day someone else might.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Again, your hypothetical is about making a value judgement on a complete unknown. I don’t know what would be better nor do I know who would come up with that better, but I’m not going to reject something in the future because I haven’t thought of it now.

But you do know what would be sacrificed. My point was it’s easy to make a big splashy statement like that in a fan forum but in real life there is .001 chance you would greenlight the replacement of those attractions. This is because of the many factors we DO know. We know that those two attractions are the pinnacle or damn near the pinnacle of Imagineering or at least world building at Disney parks. We DO know what they mean to the Disneyland/ Disney Parks brand. We DO know what they mean to merchandise sales. We DO know the current WDI has been putting out questionable work at best and the risk wouldn’t be worth the reward. I think based on the above factors it is safe to assume that anybody in a position of power and/ or admiration for the Disneyland brand would take pause at replacing either of those attractions and the chance of it happening is astronomically slim to none in our lifetime. As I’ve pointed out, what prompted my response was you nonchalantly saying you wouldn’t be opposed to either attraction being replaced if something better came along. It’s the kind of statement that could easily be thrown around in a fan forum but holds no weight in the real world.
 
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mickEblu

Well-Known Member
The problem with declaring it impossible is that this is based on only what we can think of, as though we are the limits of imagination. I can’t think of the circumstances either but some day someone else might.

Ok how about extremely risky, improbable and unnecessary?
 

shortstop

Well-Known Member
The problem with declaring it impossible is that this is based on only what we can think of, as though we are the limits of imagination. I can’t think of the circumstances either but some day someone else might.
That’s fair. However, that seems like a long-term proposition. I can’t see myself being okay with that happening in my lifetime.

It reminds me of the Great Movie Ride/MMRR. The Mickey Ride might end up being “better” than GMR, but that doesn’t mean replacing GMR was the right decision.
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Honestly, I agree with most of your devil's advocate stance. This is particularly why for years I think Hong Kong's castle has been particularly out of whack. There is no 'but Walt' to fall back on and some very real mountains in the backdrop, which make the toy sized castle look pathetic and further out of scale.

However, Hong Kong is not classic Disneyland. For historical and cultural reasons this is actually a piece of art in California. It deserves preservation and maintenance for that reason. Reducing some of the pink palate would be nice. If we could go back to the 60's and start over, I probably would have gone with that Soaring version.

But now... it is art.
I have a lot of comments to catch up on but this one I am fond of and captures the dilemma. The object is art, and it is historic, and carries a lot of meaning. Could you create something "better?" Could we create something objectively better? How would you measure that? In doing so you lose the emotional connection people have to arguably the most iconic piece of American pop art. The old New Coke/Coke Classic dilemma. Does this dilemma erode with time? At what point do those most affectionate for the castle become so outnumbered by those who don't, or does that never happen because new guests coming every year like it the way it is (do they, I wonder?)?
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You and I both know you wouldn’t sign off on that. It’s one thing to state something like this in a fan forum but real world if they come with you with some “better” plans for POTC and HM and you had the power to greenlight the project you would not. Also I think the key word you said was “replace” and not necessarily “better.” And if you did greenlight it, who is this team that you’re trusting as you sacrifice two of Disneyland’s most historic and signature attractions?

See, I don't know what's wrong with me, but the subtlety and invisibility of the castle that says just enough to say "this isn't your typical main street" might as well not say anything at all, or say it more loudly. I understand the Mona Lisa analogy mentioned, but I really don't believe that the aesthetic experience of seeing sleeping beauty castle is anything like that of the mona lisa. It is attractive, but its purpose of showing us that we aren't in Kansas anymore, its transcendence, its level of picturesque-ness in pursuit of the sublime and in capturing the largest aesthetic and emotional response in the viewer is not being fully fulfilled. Architects spent centuries perfecting castles and churches to evoke those feelings, and the theatrics of baroque are leveraged in modern theme parks all the time. I know I am taking it for granted, but I also am confident that it could be more successful at hacking our brains and playing with our emotions. Right now, it communicates a historic narrative about Disneyland, which has its own value, while underselling/managing our expectations about the rest that it has to offer. It is nostalgic, prolific, historic, Walt built it, etc, but all of that weight also just perfectly encapsulates in one object the narrative that Disneyland is limited by its first buildout, its size, its age, that it can't be improved upon or continue to grow because of all of its context.

However, New Orleans Square is a masterpiece. It is beautiful, rich, multileveled, multilayered, has beautiful topographical and grade changes, blends landscape rich zones with dense streets, and blurs the lines between indoors and outdoors, paranormal and normal, transcendental magic and realism. I have a 54 inch wide blueprint of the front elevation of sleeping beauty castle in my apartment, and the line weight is incredible, and I appreciate it... but not to the same extent. Let's say I hypothetically had my way and got to change it. Would I be able to say now with certainty that I wouldn't regret what I had done? No, but I have never been totally in love with the structure and always stared at it and tinkered with it. I have often argued that Disneyland is essentially public space and that we should arguably be able to fight for its preservation, defending it against brash changes at the will of the walt disney company. That the changes to pirates were ridiculous because you would never go back in time and edit a movie once it has been released, and we should treat theme park attractions as art as well, preserving them rather than editing them. However, I am also a hypocrite and this is a far more subtle example of one man's trash being another man's treasure.

I think if and when the day comes that the castle needs replacement, for operations reasons, safety reasons, or structural, the best course of action would be to crowdsource the process and involve the public. Have votes for the best design and ultimately have a final vote of whether to rebuild the original or move forward with the new one. Disneyland belongs to the hearts and minds of its fans in the public, and the only way to pull something like this off is to give them some skin in the game and some say/feeling of control. As we know, so much of the panic of being a theme park fan isn't just in the end result, it is in the lack of creative control/involvement as well.
 
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nevol

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
More guest space only relates to height if you intend to visibly occupy three floors throughout the park. That would be a radical change way beyond the scope of the castle, one that would involve rebuilding the entire park.

This isn't just skyscraper canyons or suggesting we make every ground floor facade twice as tall all over the park. New Orleans Square and Adventureland are already two levels. Adventureland is low overall but has themed backstage upstairs areas and a second floor queue for Jungle Cruise. Between the height of Tarzan's Treehouse and the depths of the pirates show building, we go from 2 floors of guest areas in new orleans square to, what, 5, 7? That sort of multileveling is ideal, where the programming and the themed environment work together. Tomorrowland too has a tall street wall, the entire interior of the "launch bay" underutilized, and obviously space mountain. Fantasyland and Frontierland are two lands with the least multileveling, though they each have examples (Golden Horseshoe, castle walkthrough, alice if we count dark rides), and they aren't absent of height; the FL facades create beautiful panoramic sky silhouettes, with well-placed roofs, towers and icons all around. Rather than looking at facades, our eye is drawn upwards where the detailing on the roofline is really interesting. Main street has forced perspective in its facades but if the show from the exterior were left alone (aka don't butcher like Club 33), I see no reason why guest areas couldn't be built in to the upper levels of some of those structures when crowd levels demand it.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
But you do know what would be sacrificed. My point was it’s easy to make a big splashy statement like that in a fan forum but in real life there is .001 chance you would greenlight the replacement of those attractions. This is because of the many factors we DO know. We know that those two attractions are the pinnacle or damn near the pinnacle of Imagineering or at least world building at Disney parks. We DO know what they mean to the Disneyland/ Disney Parks brand. We DO know what they mean to merchandise sales. We DO know the current WDI has been putting out questionable work at best and the risk wouldn’t be worth the reward. I think based on the above factors it is safe to assume that anybody in a position of power and/ or admiration for the Disneyland brand would take pause at replacing either of those attractions and the chance of it happening is astronomically slim to none in our lifetime. As I’ve pointed out, what prompted my response was you nonchalantly saying you wouldn’t be opposed to either attraction being replaced if something better came along. It’s the kind of statement that could easily be thrown around in a fan forum but holds no weight in the real world.
If it were so easy then it wouldn’t be taken as so shocking and would be said more often. Instead people do talk about what should be considered sacred. Even if it is unlikely it is part of having an open mindset instead of starting off with a list of rejections.

That’s fair. However, that seems like a long-term proposition. I can’t see myself being okay with that happening in my lifetime.

It reminds me of the Great Movie Ride/MMRR. The Mickey Ride might end up being “better” than GMR, but that doesn’t mean replacing GMR was the right decision.
A theme park is more than just a collection of rides so the assessment of an attraction should include its context.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I have a lot of comments to catch up on but this one I am fond of and captures the dilemma. The object is art, and it is historic, and carries a lot of meaning. Could you create something "better?" Could we create something objectively better? How would you measure that? In doing so you lose the emotional connection people have to arguably the most iconic piece of American pop art. The old New Coke/Coke Classic dilemma. Does this dilemma erode with time? At what point do those most affectionate for the castle become so outnumbered by those who don't, or does that never happen because new guests coming every year like it the way it is (do they, I wonder?)?

I would be much more open to SBC being replaced than POTC or HM. At the end of the day, a castle would still be standing at the end of a Main Street. You lose the historical/ nostalgic value but the park experience would still be same. Of course, that’s only if they could find a team to competently complete such a tall order. It’s a big IF and as I’ve said not worth the risk to me.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
Interesting excerpt from this article that I felt applied to this discussion well: "He [Rolly Crump] points to the height difference between California’s Sleeping Beauty Castle (77 feet) and Florida’s Cinderella Castle as (189 feet) as an example of the change. “When you go to Disney World and you see the castle, you want to genuflect ... and that disturbed me.”"

Love Rolly, his style, and all
he’s done for the company but he kinda comes across as a bitter, resentful old grump in that article.
 

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