Perks being reduced for some CMs

[rael ramone]

You're completely missing the point of why CM perks are being scaled back. This is NOT a cost-cutting measure, since it doesn't cost Disney money to let CMs in the parks for free. It actually makes Disney money because those CMs buy food, drink, and merch. Even with merch discounts, those sales are still profitable. Disney is actually VOLUNTARILY MISSING OUT ON REVENUE in order to provide the guest with a better experience. Specifically, smaller crowds. That's what everyone wants, right? Disney to stop nickel-and-dime cost cutting in the name of the guest experience?

Actually it's likely about raising spending per guest to report better numbers for their Street Overlords. And it's been said that CM's don't really spend much - they must know that since they see how little they pay them .

I recall reading here about Pleasure Island clubs not liking the 'CM nights' since the clubs are filled with people who don't buy anything.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

You realize that raising wages could reduce or possibly eliminate the "bad part of town" problem.

No it doesn't. If a fast food worker earns 25% of a CPA who earns 50% of a doctor, it doesn't make a difference if the salaries are $20,000 / $80,000 / $160,000 or $50,000 / $200,000 / $400,000. Inflation will always follow an increase in wages for the bottom earners such that, no matter how much they make in nominal wages, there will always be a bad part of town.

In that case, there should be no cast members and the parks should fail. As you know, "A and B" should never be an option. We've all been there, we've all been poor living in a dump and trying to get out of it.

Yes, we've been there -- past tense. And we're not there now. We rose up because of what we did, not because we begged others to do for us.

It's an unnecessary struggle, one created by business and the government to keep people from being the best that they can be.

No. It's absolutely a necessary struggle, one that's existed since the dawn of time. If not for businesses, you'd make zero in wages, let alone a "living wage." I'm not a victim and neither are you and neither are the people slinging popcorn on Main Street. I'm so sick of people blaming Barack Obama and Rush Limbaugh and the Federal Reserve and Bob Iger for their problems. Go out and make it happen. Make yourself indispensable. Don't be a supporting actor in the movie of your life.

I don't think you realize you're devaluing yourself and everyone around you by arguing that people at the bottom shouldn't earn more and that their income shouldn't follow inflation and other cost of living increases. What you're effectively saying is that you're only worth what you currently earn and they're worth all that they currently earn.

Exactly the opposite. You're the one devaluing the folks at the bottom by saying they're stuck there. You want to make the basement nice and cozy because you think people are incapable of getting out of the basement once they're there. I want to give them a ladder so they can start climbing out of the basement. Benjamin Franklin said, "I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

If you make $15, and they make $8.50 an hour your indirect argument is that you are only worth $15 because they are only worth $8.50.

Your economic value is not the same as your value as a person. I'm worth $XX,000 per year because that's what an employer is willing to pay me. That's what "worth" means; willingness to pay. If nobody is willing to pay you more than $8.50 an hour, then that's exactly what you're worth in economic terms. That has nothing to do with your value as a father, son, softball coach, or husband, as those things are obviously immeasurable but make up the bulk of what you're worth as a human being.

You're making an assumption that apartments would cost more because people earn more but the fact of the matter is that rent is going up either way, but increases to income at the bottom and in the middle aren't.

Rent would go up more. I'm not going to debate the economic theory of wage-push inflation, but it's real. Higher-than-market wages cause two things: unemployment and inflation.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/05/21/51883/minimum-wage-hike-could-increase-la-rents-economis/

It's not a problem for me, but I can already see it as a problem for my kids. The gap is so large now that unless you come out of school as a high earner you can't make it anymore.

There's the victim mentality again. Nobody is going to succeed if they give up before they start because they're convinced the cards are stacked against them.

Unfortunately, we have a large population of people who don't get that arguing against raising income levels to a more reasonable basic livable level is hurting themselves as much as everyone else around them because it keeps their own wages down.

It keeps wages down in nominal terms, not in real terms. Everyone making 25% more money isn't any good if everything is 25% more expensive. That leaves everyone right back where they started.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Actually it's likely about raising spending per guest to report better numbers for their Street Overlords. And it's been said that CM's don't really spend much - they must know that since they see how little they pay them .

You're right that CMs spend less than "normal" guests, but they still spend something. A little bit of incremental revenue is better than zero incremental revenue, which is when you get when you have blockouts. Also, PCGS is driven by room nights and CMs still have the same room discounts they've always had.

I recall reading here about Pleasure Island clubs not liking the 'CM nights' since the clubs are filled with people who don't buy anything.

You don't see how that's a guest experience issue? If you're a cash-paying guest trying to get into the Adventurers Club so you can drop some serious money on signature drinks, wouldn't you be absolutely furious to see a line of off-duty cast members clogging up the entire bar with nothing but Diet Cokes all night?

 

[French Quarter]

Yes, some of their income does come back but they have to live without it for a year first.

I am actually quite sure that you can petition to have a reduction in the amount of income tax taken off your pay cheque when you are low-income. I have done it. Most people just don't.

 

[xdan0920]

No. It's absolutely a necessary struggle, one that's existed since the dawn of time. If not for businesses, you'd make zero in wages, let alone a "living wage." I'm not a victim and neither are you and neither are the people slinging popcorn on Main Street. I'm so sick of people blaming Barack Obama and Rush Limbaugh and the Federal Reserve and Bob Iger for their problems. Go out and make it happen. Make yourself indispensable. Don't be a supporting actor in the movie of your life.

A fun line of thought for someone who has been lucky enough to make it happen. Sometimes bootstraps can only be pulled up so far before bad luck, or good luck, interferes.

http://jeffbradleyblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-little-ditty-about-out-of-work.html

Interesting read about a very successful dude, who is no longer that.

You're philosophy works fine if our population was kept in check. It's not though. There are only so many careers that pay well, and there are multitudes more people then there are careers. And that problem gets worse, every single day. My brother is a college grad, Rutgers University, he can't find a good job worth sh**. Applications go out daily, and get rejected daily. 50 guys going out for a job at a cable company. 250 going for one open cop spot. This is the world we live in now.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I am actually quite sure that you can petition to have a reduction in the amount of income tax taken off your pay cheque when you are low-income. I have done it. Most people just don't.

One has to fill out the forms properly when the job is started. Those deductions can also be adjusted by speaking with human resources. Tax deductions are hardly the big issue for the working poor. Housing costs are what really hit the hardest, but that is not fixed by artificially raising wages.

You're philosophy works fine if our population was kept in check. It's not though. There are only so many careers that pay well, and there are multitudes more people then there are careers. And that problem gets worse, every single day. My brother is a college grad, Rutgers University, he can't find a good job worth sh**. Applications go out daily, and get rejected daily. 50 guys going out for a job at a cable company. 250 going for one open cop spot. This is the world we live in now.

Legislating higher wages wouldn't fix this scenario in any manner. The dream that an entry job could fill in is impossible because it completely ignores the relativity of money. Making more money doesn't mean anything when costs are higher.

 

[rucifee]

No it doesn't. If a fast food worker earns 25% of a CPA who earns 50% of a doctor, it doesn't make a difference if the salaries are $20,000 / $80,000 / $160,000 or $50,000 / $200,000 / $400,000. Inflation will always follow an increase in wages for the bottom earners such that, no matter how much they make in nominal wages, there will always be a bad part of town.

There will always be bad people. Inflation has for years far surpassed wage increases. You've already deflated your own comment here.

Yes, we've been there -- past tense. And we're not there now. We rose up because of what we did, not because we begged others to do for us.

People expecting basic income to follow inflation aren't begging. It's demeaning to imply that they are.

No. It's absolutely a necessary struggle, one that's existed since the dawn of time. If not for businesses, you'd make zero in wages, let alone a "living wage." I'm not a victim and neither are you and neither are the people slinging popcorn on Main Street. I'm so sick of people blaming Barack Obama and Rush Limbaugh and the Federal Reserve and Bob Iger for their problems. Go out and make it happen. Make yourself indispensable. Don't be a supporting actor in the movie of your life.

I didn't say they should have no struggle at all, only that the gap has made the struggle nearly impossible to climb up from the bottom.

Exactly

the opposite. You're the one devaluing the folks at the bottom by saying they're stuck there. You want to make the basement nice and cozy because you think people are incapable of getting out of the basement once they're there. I want to give them a ladder so they can start climbing out of the basement. Benjamin Franklin said, "I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

You're reading a lot into what I've said that isn't there. I don't think we should give anyone handouts. I do think that people even at the bottom should be able to at a minimum afford clothes, rent, and food with an honest amount of work.

Your economic value is not the same as your value as a person. I'm worth $XX,000 per year because that's what an employer is willing to pay me. That's what "worth" means; willingness to pay. If nobody is willing to pay you more than $8.50 an hour, then that's exactly what you're worth in economic terms. That has nothing to do with your value as a father, son, softball coach, or husband, as those things are obviously immeasurable but make up the bulk of what you're worth as a human being.

You should go read FDR's speech. I agree that worth means willingness to pay, but a corporation being unwilling to pay does not mean that person is not worthy of that value.

Rent would go up more. I'm not going to debate the economic theory of wage-push inflation, but it's real. Higher-than-market wages cause two things: unemployment and inflation.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/05/21/51883/minimum-wage-hike-could-increase-la-rents-economis/

What defines market?

There's the victim mentality again. Nobody is going to succeed if they give up before they start because they're convinced the cards are stacked against them.

Nobody said anything about giving up, except you.

It keeps wages down in nominal terms, not in real terms. Everyone making 25% more money isn't any good if everything is 25% more expensive. That leaves everyone right back where they started.

You're assuming that a 25% increase in income means a 25% increase in everything else. That's an assumption, but not a fact. Fuel prices are dropping, why? Supply and demand drives the market.

 

[xdan0920]

One has to fill out the forms properly when the job is started. Those deductions can also be adjusted by speaking with human resources. Tax deductions are hardly the big issue for the working poor. Housing costs are what really hit the hardest, but that is not fixed by artificially raising wages.


Legislating higher wages wouldn't fix this scenario in any manner. The dream that an entry job could fill in is impossible because it completely ignores the relativity of money. Making more money doesn't mean anything when costs are higher.

I own a small business. I don't want higher wages legislated. I was simply arguing against the fact that pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is all that's necessary in today's world. It's not.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

A fun line of thought for someone who has been lucky enough to make it happen. Sometimes bootstraps can only be pulled up so far before bad luck, or good luck, interferes.

Not buying it. My dad is an Army veteran with no college education and no trade skills, nor is he a union member. He's been laid off and injured on the job at various points in his career. He makes $70,000+ doing semi-skilled manufacturing. Dream job, right? Folks should be lining up around the corner to work there, right? Anecdotes about three gazillion applicants for only two open positions? Nope. Nobody wants the job because he works twelve hours overnight and unusual days on and off. He has coworkers who get fired because they don't show up to work on time, or fall asleep on the job, or show up hungover. That's the baseline to keep that job. Don't come to work hungover. And filling even that basic threshold is something the company struggles with. They can't find good people because people are lazy and self-destructive.

You're philosophy works fine if our population was kept in check. It's not though. There are only so many careers that pay well, and there are multitudes more people then there are careers. And that problem gets worse, every single day. My brother is a college grad, Rutgers University, he can't find a good job worth sh**. Applications go out daily, and get rejected daily. 50 guys going out for a job at a cable company. 250 going for one open cop spot. This is the world we live in now.

1. Nobody hires anyone based on an "application going out daily." He needs to network.
2. What did he study?
3. Did he go to class every day?
4. How much did he party?
5. Why isn't he working at McDonald's. Unless he's an idiot (I assume he's not), he could have a $40,000 assistant restaurant manager position within a year. Not a huge sum, but plenty to live on while the search continues The secret about fast food employees is that most of them are drug users and have terrible attitudes. If you're neither of those things, you get promoted real fast. But I know millennials are too good to sling burgers, so forget I said anything.

 

[rucifee]

I own a small business. I don't want higher wages legislated. I was simply arguing against the fact that pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is all that's necessary in today's world. It's not.

I don't think any reasonable person wants wages legislated.

 

[xdan0920]

Not buying it. My dad is an Army veteran with no college education and no trade skills, nor is he a union member. He's been laid off and injured on the job at various points in his career. He makes $70,000+ doing semi-skilled manufacturing. Dream job, right? Folks should be lining up around the corner to work there, right? Anecdotes about three gazillion applicants for only two open positions? Nope. Nobody wants the job because he works twelve hours overnight and unusual days on and off. He has coworkers who get fired because they don't show up to work on time, or fall asleep on the job, or show up hungover. That's the baseline to keep that job. Don't come to work hungover. And filling even that basic threshold is something the company struggles with. They can't find good people because people are lazy and self-destructive.


1. Nobody hires anyone based on an "application going out daily." He needs to network.
2. What did he study?
3. Did he go to class every day?
4. How much did he party?
5. Why isn't he working at McDonald's. Unless he's an idiot (I assume he's not), he could have a $40,000 assistant restaurant manager position within a year. Not a huge sum, but plenty to live on while the search continues The secret about fast food employees is that most of them are drug users and have terrible attitudes. If you're neither of those things, you get promoted real fast. But I know millennials are too good to sling burgers, so forget I said anything.

My Dad has no college either. Makes good money because he busted his tail. Things were different then. It's not so simple anymore. Look around you. Small businesses are disappearing left and right under the crush of mega corporations, who post massive profits while the plebes that do the work make proportionately less and less. It's not my opinion here, it's a fact.

Read the article I linked you to.

As to the applications to openings, I'm telling you from personal experience, both in hiring, and in job searching. I wanted to be a cop, but it just wasn't happening. 30,000 people applied to the Port Authority when they opened up hiring 3 years ago. 14000 qualified to get hired. They hired 200. Do the math on that.

I only know my area of the country, maybe things are different in the flyover states.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't think any reasonable person wants wages legislated.

So are you not reasonable? You just quoted President Roosevelt when he was doing just that.

 

[hopemax]

Rent would go up more. I'm not going to debate the economic theory of wage-push inflation, but it's real. Higher-than-market wages cause two things: unemployment and inflation.

And what is the "market wage" in a town where one of the biggest employers doesn't let the "local market set the price for labor." They simply fly in thousands of cheaper workers from colleges around the US, and recruitment drives from the islands in the Caribbean. Where's that in the economic theory? If WDW, had to rely only on workers from Central Florida, wages would be higher. They found a way to "short circuit" the local market forces and so it feels disingenuous to claim "but theory." We're already working outside of that playbook, and in a different game.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

You're reading a lot into what I've said that isn't there. I don't think we should give anyone handouts. I do think that people even at the bottom should be able to at a minimum afford clothes, rent, and food with an honest amount of work.

That's a logical fallacy. If you're actually doing "an honest amount of work," you won't be at the bottom for long, so it's irrelevant. "The bottom" are the people who can't or choose not to do "an honest amount of work."

You should go read FDR's speech. I agree that worth means willingness to pay, but a corporation being unwilling to pay does not mean that person is not worthy of that value.

That's the beautiful thing about free market capitalism. Corporations compete with one another. If you're a super awesome employee, and I'm a business owner, I want to hire you. So I pay a premium for the best and the brightest employees because they're worth more. If nobody is offering you more, then maybe you need to realize that you're not, in fact, worth more. But again, that's not a permanent condition. Maybe you're only worth $8.50 today because you've never had a job. But once on the job your boss sees you have a super positive attitude and people skills so you start training new employees. Then you become a manager. And on and on.

What defines market?

Willingness to pay.

Employer: I'll pay you $8.50 to do one hour of work.
Employee: Agreed.

It's as simple as that. If the Employee feels he's worth $12.00 an hour, then he shouldn't agree to work for $8.50. If he's correct that he actually is worth $12.00, then he'll have an offer in no time. If he doesn't get any offers at $12.00 per hour, then he isn't worth it.

Nobody said anything about giving up, except you.

You basically said you don't think your children have any chance at economic success in this world because corporations and the government are out to get them. People who don't think they have any chance at success don't bother trying. I don't think that's what you're saying about your kids, but it's true for a lot of people.

You're assuming that a 25% increase in income means a 25% increase in everything else. That's an assumption, but not a fact. Fuel prices are dropping, why?

Obviously it's not a 1:1 impact. It wouldn't perfectly follow a 25% increase in prices for a 25% increase in wages, but the impact is directionally correct.

Supply and demand drives the market.

Exactly my point above! Supply and demand doesn't only drive the market for goods and services. It also drives the market for labor. Serious question. It 100 equally-qualified people apply for a job with your company and they're all equally qualified to do the job, but some of them demand $12.00 and others demand $8.50, which are you going to hire? You can afford to pay either wage and still make a profit, and the candidates are exactly alike in every single way.

And what is the "market wage" in a town where one of the biggest employers doesn't let the "local market set the price for labor." They simply fly in thousands of cheaper workers from colleges around the US, and recruitment drives from the islands in the Caribbean. Where's that in the economic theory? If WDW, had to rely only on workers from Central Florida, wages would be higher. They found a way to "short circuit" the local market forces and so it feels disingenuous to claim "but theory." We're already working outside of that playbook, and in a different game.

Very excellent point. The best counter-argument I've read so far. The College Program is a disaster and, frankly, I don't have an answer because I'm not familiar enough with the economic logistics of the program.

 

[raven]

...no matter how much they make in nominal wages, there will always be a bad part of town.

Does this include the Section 8 housing directly built behind Disney University due to all of the low wage employees they have? Disney has even offered CM classes titled "How to live on a low income" in the past. So that proves for a fact that they don't pay well.

The "unskilled" job argument in this thread always makes me laugh. When you work for Disney they train you on everything. Even custodial employees have a section on how to properly replace a trash bag. They make the CMs sign off on everything so if they do it incorrectly, they can be disciplined. This also cover's Disney's behind on safety incidents because they can confirm each CM has been properly trained how to prevent from hurting themselves. Then in the event of someone getting hurt, they can sign off on paying them Workman's Compensation and even insurance. And a lot of CM's who hurt themselves are eventually let go because they are a "liability" to the company now. Don't laugh, it's true!

This being said, the "expectation level" of CM's are often much higher at Disney then the same job elsewhere. And when you have very high expectations, low wages and dwindling perks...it gets a bit sad. Especially seeing how your employer is raking in the dough from tourists.

 

[rucifee]

So are you not reasonable? You just quoted President Roosevelt when he was doing just that.

Desired and required are two very different things. There's no desire to legislate wages, however it's unfortunately required since many businesses will not self regulate. FDR only legislated because he had to.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Desired and required are two very different things. There's no desire to legislate wages, however it's unfortunately required since many businesses will not self regulate. FDR only legislated because he had to.

A "need" that clearly failed like most of his other "necessary" actions.

 

[raven]

Willingness to pay.

Employer: I'll pay you $8.50 to do one hour of work.
Employee: Agreed.

It's as simple as that. If the Employee feels he's worth $12.00 an hour, then he shouldn't agree to work for $8.50.

Have you been to Disney Casting? There are no job descriptions. Just a list of what's open. You choose one and they tell you the wage. That's it. Then when you are locked into that wage you find out there is a ton of more work to the job that you were never told about. All part of that Disney Magic.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Does this include the Section 8 housing directly built behind Disney University due to all of the low wage employees they have? Disney has even offered CM classes titled "How to live on a low income" in the past. So that proves for a fact that they don't pay well.

The "unskilled" job argument in this thread always makes me laugh. When you work for Disney they train you on everything. Even custodial employees have a section on how to properly replace a trash bag. They make the CMs sign off on everything so if they do it incorrectly, they can be disciplined. This also cover's Disney's behind on safety incidents because they can confirm each CM has been properly trained how to prevent from hurting themselves. Then in the event of someone getting hurt, they can sign off on paying them Workman's Compensation and even insurance. And a lot of CM's who hurt themselves are eventually let go because they are a "liability" to the company now. Don't laugh, it's true!

This being said, the "expectation level" of CM's are often much higher at Disney then the same job elsewhere. And when you have very high expectations, low wages and dwindling perks...it gets a bit sad. Especially seeing how your employer is raking in the dough from tourists.

That Disney trains people for each position is exactly why the jobs are categorized as being unskilled. A job be skilled or unskilled has to do with the pre-hire state of the employee. A skilled laborer must be proficient in that particular field before taking the job.

 

[raven]

That Disney trains people for each position is exactly why the jobs are categorized as being unskilled. A job be skilled or unskilled has to do with the pre-hire state of the employee. A skilled laborer must be proficient in that particular field before taking the job.

Yet I went to casting 8 years ago with 15+ years as a photographer and brought in my portfolio and they told me Photo Pass wasn't available. Then the person in the cubicle next to me got a Photo Pass role yet told them she's only ever used a disposable camera.

They don't want skilled workers.