On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[BrianLo]

I know that's adjusting for general inflation, but it's doubtful Disney could build something comparable for that much today.

They definitely have a spending issue. But some of it is incomparable, due to general wage increases in the respective fields with the rise of competitors.

Just like how animated costs skyrocketed with Dreamworks arrival to the scene. Yes even that area overspends, but some of the production increase justifiably had to do with Animators previously being severely underpaid.

The company achieved a lot on the backs of underpaying people for decades. I mean they still do...

 

[_caleb]

They definitely have a spending issue. But some of it is incomparable, due to general wage increases in the respective fields with the rise of competitors.

Just like how animated costs skyrocketed with Dreamworks arrival to the scene. Yes even that area overspends, but some of the production increase justifiably had to do with Animators previously being severely underpaid.

The company achieved a lot on the backs of underpaying people for decades. I mean they still do...

If Disney is just really bad at overspending (I guess they’d be GOOD at overspending), shouldn’t there be a lot more serious competitors to Disney parks (besides Universal)? I know some folks around here are big fans of regional parks, but if the problem is that Disney is bloated and micromanagey, wouldn’t there be an opportunity for someone else to do it better?

 

[BrianLo]

If Disney is just really bad at overspending (I guess they’d be GOOD at overspending), shouldn’t there be a lot more serious competitors to Disney parks (besides Universal)? I know some folks around here are big fans of regional parks, but if the problem is that Disney is bloated and micromanagey, wouldn’t there be an opportunity for someone else to do it better?

Probably because they already achieved a domestic monopoly (or duopoly) prior to their spending getting out of control. Nothing regional can compete because they can neither hit the same attendance levels or charge the same sort of premiums.

There are a few one-off examples though elsewhere. Efteling and Europa Park are managing to build Disney-ish level attractions for a very small fraction, but they are already well established.

I don't want to say the domestic market is saturated, but it is incredibly unlikely to produce another Disney/Universal. That's more likely to rise out of more under-served markets like China and then move in domestically.

 

[_caleb]

Probably because they already achieved a domestic monopoly (or duopoly) prior to their spending getting out of control. Nothing regional can compete because they can neither hit the same attendance levels or charge the same sort of premiums.

There are a few one-off examples though elsewhere. Efteling and Europa Park are managing to build Disney-ish level attractions for a very small fraction, but they are already well established.

I don't want to say the domestic market is saturated, but it is incredibly unlikely to produce another Disney/Universal. That's more likely to rise out of more under-served markets like China and then move in domestically.

Other than Non-compete contracts, seems strange we haven’t seen (former) Imagineers spin up smaller, single-land regional parks that might fill in some of the gaps.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Other than Non-compete contracts, seems strange we haven’t seen (former) Imagineers spin up smaller, single-land regional parks that might fill in some of the gaps.

Like Evermore? Former Imagineers work on a whole variety of projects. They’re not necessarily starting them but that makes sense as they’re not operators.

 

[_caleb]

Like Evermore? Former Imagineers work on a whole variety of projects. They’re not necessarily starting them but that makes sense as they’re not operators.

Thanks! I had never heard of Evermore. Looks interesting. And yes, like just the sort of thing I was asking about.

In the tech world, lots of designers and developers spin off their own companies by partnering with people who can provide the business savvy. This is especially true if they disagree with the direction the original company was taking or if they think there’s money to be made turning a project into a business. Maybe it happens more than I’m aware of, but I don’t hear about this a lot with former Disney Imagineers/CMs.

I do know one former Imagineer who now designs and builds campuses for churches.

 

[JoeCamel]

Thanks! I had never heard of Evermore. Looks interesting. And yes, like just the sort of thing I was asking about.

In the tech world, lots of designers and developers spin off their own companies by partnering with people who can provide the business savvy. This is especially true if they disagree with the direction the original company was taking or if they think there’s money to be made turning a project into a business. Maybe it happens more than I’m aware of, but I don’t hear about this a lot with former Disney Imagineers/CMs.

I do know one former Imagineer who now designs and builds campuses for churches.

Many put their talents to work outside the park realm. Design rules all and can be very powerful if used correctly, not just in theme parks

SottoStudios/LA — collection

Sottostudios is the only experiential design agency for marketing, brand, themed entertainment, pop-up retail, and exhibition.

www.sottostudios.com

 

[lazyboy97o]

Thanks! I had never heard of Evermore. Looks interesting. And yes, like just the sort of thing I was asking about.

In the tech world, lots of designers and developers spin off their own companies by partnering with people who can provide the business savvy. This is especially true if they disagree with the direction the original company was taking or if they think there’s money to be made turning a project into a business. Maybe it happens more than I’m aware of, but I don’t hear about this a lot with former Disney Imagineers/CMs.

I do know one former Imagineer who now designs and builds campuses for churches.

Imagineering is a lot bigger than Disney typically portrays. Many work on a project basis, so they’re only there for a few years before moving on to another project elsewhere. Some do start their own firms or get into consulting. For awhile you could hire the Kirk Brothers, creative leads on Tokyo DisneySEA, to do design work for you.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Imagineering is a lot bigger than Disney typically portrays. Many work on a project basis, so they’re only there for a few years before moving on to another project elsewhere. Some do start their own firms or get into consulting. For awhile you could hire the Kirk Brothers, creative leads on Tokyo DisneySEA, to do design work for you.

┏┓
┃┃╱╲ in this
┃╱╱╲╲ house
╱╱╭╮╲╲ we
▔▏┗┛▕▔ stan
╱▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔╲
the Kirk Bros
╱╱┏┳┓╭╮┏┳┓ ╲╲ ▔▏┗┻┛┃┃┗┻┛▕▔

 

[maxairmike]

If Disney is just really bad at overspending (I guess they’d be GOOD at overspending), shouldn’t there be a lot more serious competitors to Disney parks (besides Universal)? I know some folks around here are big fans of regional parks, but if the problem is that Disney is bloated and micromanagey, wouldn’t there be an opportunity for someone else to do it better?

Besides the great explanation @BrianLo gave, it's also that the Disney Parks are wrapped up in everything that makes the Walt Disney Company the force that it is. Other parks can't have Mickey, Aladdin, Lion King, etc. Yes, they can make their own versions, but the style and character of the Disney interpretations of public domain stories are the definitive versions of these stories for at least a few more generations. Plus, to further @BrianLo's point, just look at Hard Rock Park. There's not really room anymore for a brand new, large scale park on the regional level, let alone the national level, and the time it would take to establish ongoing marketshare while eating losses (or insignificant profits) is beyond the appetite of anyone fronting money these days. The economic reasons you cite aren't really applicable, at least in any kind of near to intermediate timeline, to the "reason" Disney is successful. Looking out another 10-20 years...because of COVID, I think it's possible you might see some kind of more tangible negative impact; otherwise I think if there were any tangible economic impacts due to the reasons you gave, it would be more in the range of 30-40 years out.

 

[_caleb]

Probably because they already achieved a domestic monopoly (or duopoly) prior to their spending getting out of control. Nothing regional can compete because they can neither hit the same attendance levels or charge the same sort of premiums.

There are a few one-off examples though elsewhere. Efteling and Europa Park are managing to build Disney-ish level attractions for a very small fraction, but they are already well established.

I don't want to say the domestic market is saturated, but it is incredibly unlikely to produce another Disney/Universal. That's more likely to rise out of more under-served markets like China and then move in domestically.

Besides the great explanation @BrianLo gave, it's also that the Disney Parks are wrapped up in everything that makes the Walt Disney Company the force that it is. Other parks can't have Mickey, Aladdin, Lion King, etc. Yes, they can make their own versions, but the style and character of the Disney interpretations of public domain stories are the definitive versions of these stories for at least a few more generations. Plus, to further @BrianLo's point, just look at Hard Rock Park. There's not really room anymore for a brand new, large scale park on the regional level, let alone the national level, and the time it would take to establish ongoing marketshare while eating losses (or insignificant profits) is beyond the appetite of anyone fronting money these days. The economic reasons you cite aren't really applicable, at least in any kind of near to intermediate timeline, to the "reason" Disney is successful. Looking out another 10-20 years...because of COVID, I think it's possible you might see some kind of more tangible negative impact; otherwise I think if there were any tangible economic impacts due to the reasons you gave, it would be more in the range of 30-40 years out.

Great input. Thanks!

Somewhere, I remember seeing an article about Great Wolf Lodge (or maybe it was those Legoland Discovery Centers) essentially pushing American families’ first Disney trip to 2 years later (in terms of children’s ages) than before. And in my opinion, neither of those is very high on the quality scale.

Seems like regional parks pretty much live off the crumbs that fall from Disney’s table. But I could see something slotting in between, say, a Six Flags/Cedar Fair park and WDW that would draw in families and make them shift what might have been an annual Disney/Universal trip to every other year. Maybe I’ll reach out to a Saudi prince to raise $500M, hire a couple former Imagineers and furloughed CMs and see what we can come up with.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Great input. Thanks!

Somewhere, I remember seeing an article about Great Wolf Lodge (or maybe it was those Legoland Discovery Centers) essentially pushing American families’ first Disney trip to 2 years later (in terms of children’s ages) than before. And in my opinion, neither of those is very high on the quality scale.

Seems like regional parks pretty much live off the crumbs that fall from Disney’s table. But I could see something slotting in between, say, a Six Flags/Cedar Fair park and WDW that would draw in families and make them shift what might have been an annual Disney/Universal trip to every other year. Maybe I’ll reach out to a Saudi prince to raise $500M, hire a couple former Imagineers and furloughed CMs and see what we can come up with.

Even without Disney’s bloat, $500 million is not that much. You’d probably want a cool billion... or two.

 

[_caleb]

Even without Disney’s bloat, $500 million is not that much. You’d probably want a cool billion... or two.

Thanks for the heads-up. I may have to break ground first and then do a second round of raising to get to $2B.

Gonna need some killer concept art... and the Saudis love those 1:1000 models.

 

[britain]

I’ve often wondered how Disney could make successful run at smaller regional entertainment centers. DisneyQuest wasn’t cutting it. I used to think it would have to legitimately be “Magic Embassies” in buildings themed to the nines, TDS fortress quality, you know.

But I didn’t think of a business model would support anything like that.

THEN I just recently heard about how Congress is now permitting studios to own movie theaters.

Muah-HA!

It’s not a miniature park crammed in a themed entertainment center. It’s an AMC reinvented to Disney Cruise Line levels of quality. The only place you can see the newest Marvel movie, dine with Elsa, and play an interactive Jedi VR game.

 

[_caleb]

I’ve often wondered how Disney could make successful run at smaller regional entertainment centers. DisneyQuest wasn’t cutting it. I used to think it would have to legitimately be “Magic Embassies” in buildings themed to the nines, TDS fortress quality, you know.

But I didn’t think of a business model would support anything like that.

THEN I just recently heard about how Congress is now permitting studios to own movie theaters.

Muah-HA!

It’s not a miniature park crammed in a themed entertainment center. It’s an AMC reinvented to Disney Cruise Line levels of quality. The only place you can see the newest Marvel movie, dine with Elsa, and play an interactive Jedi VR game.

That’s a great idea! (One that Disney will steal from you and claim as their own!)

Only thing working against this one is the coronavirus (or any epidemc). You think Disney has the stomach to launch yet another initiative that would have to shut down in an outbreak?

Also, there are LOTS of malls that are struggling and/or closing. Maybe an opportunity for a footprint a bit larger than just a movie theater.

I like it! If Disney doesn’t jump into this, I’ll pitch it to my Saudi friends.

 

[Heppenheimer]

I’ve often wondered how Disney could make successful run at smaller regional entertainment centers. DisneyQuest wasn’t cutting it. I used to think it would have to legitimately be “Magic Embassies” in buildings themed to the nines, TDS fortress quality, you know.

But I didn’t think of a business model would support anything like that.

THEN I just recently heard about how Congress is now permitting studios to own movie theaters.

Muah-HA!

It’s not a miniature park crammed in a themed entertainment center. It’s an AMC reinvented to Disney Cruise Line levels of quality. The only place you can see the newest Marvel movie, dine with Elsa, and play an interactive Jedi VR game.

How about more stand-alone resorts? Maybe try venturing outside of their warm-weather comfort zone with something like a ski resort? It was one of the projects that Walt wanted to develop.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

How about more stand-alone resorts? Maybe try venturing outside of their warm-weather comfort zone with something like a ski resort? It was one of the projects that Walt wanted to develop.

Always wanted that ski resort. Now you are making me think again, if done right how amazing something like that could have been.

 

[dolbyman]

Just heard today that a former coworker of my GF (12 years at WDW in the parks) was let go. Sad Sad

 

[natatomic]

Just heard today that a former coworker of my GF (12 years at WDW in the parks) was let go. Sad Sad

Sad to hear that. What was their role/department?

 

[Heppenheimer]

Always wanted that ski resort. Now you are making me think again, if done right how amazing something like that could have been.

I had fun with that concept in the Imagineering forum:

Imagineering a Disney Mountain Resort

For some reason lately, mainly because the weather is about to change where I live into the winter ski season, I've been wondering, if Disney ever decided to revisit the idea of opening a ski resort, what would it look like? What unique features would offer? And I say "revisit" because Disney...

forums.wdwmagic.com

I didn't quite finish it, but maybe I will when I have more time.