Old Key West different expiration dates....

[Phonedave]

If the contract reads that maintenance is the sole responsibility of the member owners then dues will become ridiculously expensive.

As far as I know, when your contract ends ownership reverts back to DVC. As a partial owner of the resort, DVC would have to pony up the maintenance for the points they own, just as they do now. You don't pay based on the number of points sold, but on the number of points that were created. Somebody has to own those points, they just don't disappear into thin air.


-dave

 

[Hakunamatata]

As far as I know, when your contract ends ownership reverts back to DVC. As a partial owner of the resort, DVC would have to pony up the maintenance for the points they own, just as they do now. You don't pay based on the number of points sold, but on the number of points that were created. Somebody has to own those points, they just don't disappear into thin air.


-dave

Thats a good point.

 

[correcaminos]

OK, so here are my wild-eyed predictions, such as they are, grain of salt, all that crap...

After 2042, Disney will assume the responsibility for the maintenance fees for the points it now owns. They won't try to pass it off to the remaining owners and I don't think legally they could. Just because fewer people own points overall as of 2043, that doesn't mean those that own suddenly own more. If DVC at that point controls 85% of the points, they assume 85% of the maintenance fees.

But unlike DVC members, they won't be beholden to the rule that you can't use points as a money making venture. After all, had they never offered the extension, then once they had control of 100% of the points, they could choose to make it a regular "cash" resort, couldn't they? Someone please let me know if I'm wrong. As I often say, it won't even be the first time I'm wrong today, let alone ever.

Now here's theory #1 - Old Key West becomes the DVC equivalent of the promotional offer other timeshare companies inundate your spam box with (or your fax if you still have one because you're a lawyer and/or old ) When guests book a week anywhere else, they'll get an offer to extend their trip for an extra 3 nights at a studio OKW for "only" $X. What that price will be will depend on what rooms in deluxe or DVC resorts go for at that point in the future. And you'll be able to upgrade to 1BR/2BR/Grand Villas based on availability. But it'll only be for 3 nights. AND it will be contingent on the adults sitting in on a pitch for whatever the newest DVC resort will be, but maybe you'll get freebies like those extra days on your park tickets, or tix for the waterparks or fastpasses etc.

Meanwhile, if it's at all legal, DVC will go to the remaining owners, those who extended, and entice them to relinquish the remaining ownership in their points so they can raze and rebuild, much like a developer offering above market value to homes on a block he'd like to convert into a condo or something. If they don't offer the $25per point back, maybe offer a partial buy back and a swap for other DVC points they have in stock, even if they expire before 2057.

If they can't do that, then you'll see a disproportionate amount on overbooking at the Values and Mods so they can give guests a "complimentary upgrade" to OKW. Or they'll do that anyway until they're in a position to raze and rebuild. After all, as much as they'd like to profit from the rooms, as long as they break even with the maintenance fees they'll have to shell out to themselves, they're not that much worse off than they would be anyway if it remained a DVC resort as it currently is. And if booking All-Star resorts at 120% occupancy so they can take the overspill and move them into larger digs and shift that money for the rooms, "on paper" to OKW, it all balances out.

The only potential downside is if guests start to get the impression, earned or not, that OKW is a pit because it's so old. Even keeping up with the maintenance might not salvage the rep that it's an old resort. But at that point many of the resorts we know and maybe love will be even older, so who knows if that will be an issue. There will be complaints about location, but is it really that much worse off than most of the Values? You're still a boat ride to Disney Springs.

So that's my take on it. I wouldn't bet money it, but that's because I'm a DVC member and therefore, cash-poor

There is a problem with this. The OKW extension is already a done deal for the *whole* resort. This wasn't a "extend your contract" it was an "opt not to extend" OKW now fully expires at 2057 and they are selling all direct points at 2057 as well. You cannot go to someone who paid money and entice them to sign a quitclaim deed 30 some years later. Or you cannot go to someone who bought direct and say "hey we want your points early" That would be a bad precedent for all of DVC.

DVC will own all of those points though. And one thing you are right on that I realized, they cannot just remove points from the system. The way OKW is written up is that there are 7+ million points. All of those points end in 2057 - just who owns them will change. DVC will get likely about 5-6 million my guess in 2042. What they do with it no one knows.

 

[winstongator]

My guess is they will phase down buildings or groups of buildings and run a skeleton crew, or they will be offering sweet deals for cash stays. They might also turn the place into CP housing?

I think the sweet deals on cash stays will be a big option.

 

[slappy magoo]

You cannot go to someone who paid money and entice them to sign a quitclaim deed 30 some years later. Or you cannot go to someone who bought direct and say "hey we want your points early" That would be a bad precedent for all of DVC.

I'm not sure that's true. DVC can in theory "entice" members with sweet deals on their points if they want, just as Disney, if they wanted, could offer Universal some insane amount of money to relinquish the rights to Marvel properties. Of course, in both scenarios, just because DVC/Disney can make such an offer, it doesn't mean they WILL, and it doesn't mean the recipient of the offer has to accept. You can always make an offer.

I think what would really set a bad precedent - and something I don't think is going to happen - would be if DVC tries to strongarm OKW points-owners into relinquishing their points, or otherwise tries to nullify the contract. The Disney equivalent of an eminent domain kind of thing.

Example - those who extended their contracts paid $25 per point. You're guessing roughly 1 million of those points has the extension. DVC could - again, in theory - tell everyone who extended that they're prepared to offer $40 per point, or something that costs them less OOP but has value to WDW fans like free park passes for 10 years, if owners are willing to sell back to DVC at 2042...but the deal is contingent on every owner accepting the deal. So if DVC has an idea for what they'd like to do with the buildings or the land, they could get started 15 years early.

Of course, even if DVC made such an offer, it would be moot because some people would hold out for more or just not want to take the deal at any price.

 

[Hakunamatata]

I guess Disney could make offers to transfer those remaining points to other resorts if it was more economical than outright buybacks.

 

[xdan0920]

I guess Disney could make offers to transfer those remaining points to other resorts if it was more economical than outright buybacks.

There has to be sufficient inventory to do that though. Also, there is the question of dues. Also, there is the question of sentimentality, some may not want to leave OKW, and they have a contract saying they own there for 15 more years.

It seems to me, the most likely scenario involves a hard sell by DVC to current 2042 expirees. The best outcome for DVC would be if more 2042 owners became 2057 owners. How exactly they go about enticing those owners who already declined, into now buying in, I do not know.

 

[xdan0920]

DVC will own all of those points though. And one thing you are right on that I realized, they cannot just remove points from the system. The way OKW is written up is that there are 7+ million points. All of those points end in 2057 - just who owns them will change. DVC will get likely about 5-6 million my guess in 2042. What they do with it no one knows.

Exactly, we are all in the dark here. I know it's a long ways away. I mean, 24 years is still a long long long long long time. But they will need to address this at some point. IMO. now would be a great time to revisit the extensions. 10 years on, maybe a sufficient portion of those points have passed on to a younger generation, and there would be more of a chance to sell 15 year extensions.

 

[correcaminos]

Exactly, we are all in the dark here. I know it's a long ways away. I mean, 24 years is still a long long long long long time. But they will need to address this at some point. IMO. now would be a great time to revisit the extensions. 10 years on, maybe a sufficient portion of those points have passed on to a younger generation, and there would be more of a chance to sell 15 year extensions.

Admittedly I am tired today, but what do they need to address in your opinion? And why would they revisit the extensions? The extension deal is done. OKW expires in 2057. Only the signing of a quit claim deed ends the date for the owner only. OKW points and resort itself as DVC now is 2057.

 

[correcaminos]

I'm not sure that's true. DVC can in theory "entice" members with sweet deals on their points if they want, just as Disney, if they wanted, could offer Universal some insane amount of money to relinquish the rights to Marvel properties. Of course, in both scenarios, just because DVC/Disney can make such an offer, it doesn't mean they WILL, and it doesn't mean the recipient of the offer has to accept. You can always make an offer.

I think what would really set a bad precedent - and something I don't think is going to happen - would be if DVC tries to strongarm OKW points-owners into relinquishing their points, or otherwise tries to nullify the contract. The Disney equivalent of an eminent domain kind of thing.

Example - those who extended their contracts paid $25 per point. You're guessing roughly 1 million of those points has the extension. DVC could - again, in theory - tell everyone who extended that they're prepared to offer $40 per point, or something that costs them less OOP but has value to WDW fans like free park passes for 10 years, if owners are willing to sell back to DVC at 2042...but the deal is contingent on every owner accepting the deal. So if DVC has an idea for what they'd like to do with the buildings or the land, they could get started 15 years early.

Of course, even if DVC made such an offer, it would be moot because some people would hold out for more or just not want to take the deal at any price.

The points end in 2057 per the contract so the offer has to be too have them sign a quit claim deed. They could try to get the points back, but all it takes is one owner to say no or ignore them and your idea fails. Not a good idea or likely doable at all.

 

[slappy magoo]

The points end in 2057 per the contract so the offer has to be too have them sign a quit claim deed. They could try to get the points back, but all it takes is one owner to say no or ignore them and your idea fails. Not a good idea or likely doable at all.

Probably, I said something similar in my last sentence, that a few people would hold out for more money or just not want to take the deal at all and that will end the negotiation.

I think that could be an interesting question for the forum. To any OKW owners who took the extension, or who would like to pretend that they are, what would be an incentive DVC would have to offer to relinquish the extension on your points? You'd still own to the original termination date, you'd just lose those extra 15 years?

I honestly think if DVC rolled the $25 per point into on-hand inventory in other resorts, plus offered those owners 15 years worth of annual park passes - "so you keep coming back after your contract ends in 2042...but by the way, you don't have to wait until 2042 to start using those passes" - every owner with an extension would lap it up and every owner without one would curse the day they opted out.

But again, it'll only take one holdout...and there's always one person who holds out.

 

[correcaminos]

Probably, I said something similar in my last sentence, that a few people would hold out for more money or just not want to take the deal at all and that will end the negotiation.

I think that could be an interesting question for the forum. To any OKW owners who took the extension, or who would like to pretend that they are, what would be an incentive DVC would have to offer to relinquish the extension on your points? You'd still own to the original termination date, you'd just lose those extra 15 years?

I honestly think if DVC rolled the $25 per point into on-hand inventory in other resorts, plus offered those owners 15 years worth of annual park passes - "so you keep coming back after your contract ends in 2042...but by the way, you don't have to wait until 2042 to start using those passes" - every owner with an extension would lap it up and every owner without one would curse the day they opted out.

But again, it'll only take one holdout...and there's always one person who holds out.

You will have two groups to think about. There are those who already paid for the extension separately and those who have not. You'd need the $25 per point plus inflation IMO. Otherwise you are dealing with people who paid thousands for nothing. That won't fly with them.

I think the idea to change the contact length a third time is just not going to happen.

You cannot roll the contracts into another one though. You cannot add to an existing resort and I doubt you'll have inventory enough anywhere to do that.

OKW still sells direct now so every new purchase adds to this. To me OKW will stay in 2042. The other 2042 ones are the ones to look at more.

 

[njDizFan]

Exactly, we are all in the dark here. I know it's a long ways away. I mean, 24 years is still a long long long long long time. But they will need to address this at some point. IMO. now would be a great time to revisit the extensions. 10 years on, maybe a sufficient portion of those points have passed on to a younger generation, and there would be more of a chance to sell 15 year extensions.

I sitting here thinking 2042 is ONLY 24 years away!!!

 

[correcaminos]

I sitting here thinking 2042 is ONLY 24 years away!!!

A long time ago 2042 felt like a far long away time. Now I have a kid who will be old enough to own in 2042 easily. A part of me is glad our quitclaim deed was lost. We might do something with it if he loves it so still... though we do have some PVB points as well.

 

[xdan0920]

Admittedly I am tired today, but what do they need to address in your opinion? And why would they revisit the extensions? The extension deal is done. OKW expires in 2057. Only the signing of a quit claim deed ends the date for the owner only. OKW points and resort itself as DVC now is 2057.

Well, because as you pointed out, millions and millions of points are going to drop out. That's can't be good for DVC.

 

[xdan0920]

To me OKW will stay in 2042. The other 2042 ones are the ones to look at more.

What do you mean? I can't imagine DVC being so dumb again. There is no way any other resort is going to screw around with their end dates.

 

[correcaminos]

What do you mean? I can't imagine DVC being so dumb again. There is no way any other resort is going to screw around with their end dates.

Sorry was sleepy yesterday. I meant that we'll see what they do with the resorts as a whole and DVC selling as a whole there. They won't screw with end dates, but we'll see if they raze and rebuild, gut and redo to offer as regular resorts or just sell a whole new contract (whether gutting or not). That's what I meant

OKW we won't see much happen until after the other resorts end due to the end date being extended 15 years.

As I already said, Disney will not make the OKW mistake twice.

Well, because as you pointed out, millions and millions of points are going to drop out. That's can't be good for DVC.

But they can do with those millions (don't know how many though) as they please. I don't think they are required to address anything. They can keep selling those off for a long time. We might see some OKW direct back on the market in 2042 for interesting prices. They can also convert to CRO at 60 days. They do have options.

 

[xdan0920]

Sorry was sleepy yesterday. I meant that we'll see what they do with the resorts as a whole and DVC selling as a whole there. They won't screw with end dates, but we'll see if they raze and rebuild, gut and redo to offer as regular resorts or just sell a whole new contract (whether gutting or not). That's what I meant

OKW we won't see much happen until after the other resorts end due to the end date being extended 15 years.

As I already said, Disney will not make the OKW mistake twice.

Ah ok, gotcha.

But they can do with those millions (don't know how many though) as they please. I don't think they are required to address anything. They can keep selling those off for a long time. We might see some OKW direct back on the market in 2042 for interesting prices. They can also convert to CRO at 60 days. They do have options.

For sure they aren't required to do anything. I just think it's in their best interest to address it. Seems to me, the more extensions they can get, the better at this point.

 

[correcaminos]

Ah ok, gotcha.


For sure they aren't required to do anything. I just think it's in their best interest to address it. Seems to me, the more extensions they can get, the better at this point.

Now you are on to something there with OKW. I suppose they could offer to nullify the quitclaims that were signed. However they really did irk a lot of people with the payment option. Truthfully we'd be happy to pay at this point (such a deal) but a lot were quite upset with the idea of it.

For a while they were offering those who did sign the quitclaim (or had it signed before) the extension the ability to purchase it. Now they are not as of this past fall. So who knows what they have in mind...

 

[YorkshireT]

If it were me, I’d refuse to sign any waivers/ ‘quitclaim’. Whether this is correct or not I’m not sure but suspect it is, I’ve seen it reported that all contracts actually reverted to 2057 when they extended. Some have refused to sign Disney’s form agreeing you’ll give it up, and even got lawyers involved in one case I saw reported and it was said Disney backed off and stopped asking him to sign every time he checked in. I’d just refuse and wait and see how it pans out.