Oh no, say it ain't so, Joe..

tirian

Well-Known Member
Bump.

It looks like someone has been paying attention to our conversations here. ;)

He even ends the video with a promise to talk about why Eisner was ultimately good for the parks because he took creative risks; and even though his successors would have to fix those parks, they themselves probably wouldn’t have built anything in the first place.

It sounds like the last few months of WDWMagic made it to YouTube. :)

 

Marc Davis Fan

Well-Known Member
his hideous design work on the exterior of Guardians, cheap asphalt carnival at AK, lame Kali Raft ride, and one of the most annoying pre-shows in Disney history with the repeated "RAISE YOUR HANDS TO BE SCANNED!!!" are all embarrassing examples of his overrated work.

If you objectively think those are fine examples of Imagineering, than we just disagree on the definition of quality.

Many imagineers have good work and weak work - with the weak work often being related to budget constraints (where they're told to accomplish X, whether it's a certain level of capacity or whatnot, at budget Y).

Tony Baxter is one of the greatest second-generation imagineers, with Big Thunder, Splash, Star Tours (the first-ever theme park simulator), Indiana Jones Adventure, and of course Disneyland Paris. But he was also the creative lead for Tomorrowland 1998, which - thanks in large part to Paul Pressler - was impossibly budget-constrained for what they were asking for from Baxter, and thus a failure.

Dino-Rama and Kali are both examples of Rohde being extremely constrained by budgets. For Dino-Rama, he was told that he needed to add a given amount of ride capacity for an impossibly small budget (Paul Pressler again), so he put it in the least obtrusive location that he could, and hoped (in vein) that it would be replaced quickly. As for Kali, his original plans were for something extraordinary, almost at the level of Kilimanjaro Safaris:
photo (60).JPG

tigerriverrapids1.jpg


...but then he was told to cut the budget so severely, there wasn't much left for the attraction.

Some of Joe Rohde's best work is in the richness of detail / level of immersion of DAK's Africa, Asia, and Pandora. I consider those among of the most immersive lands in any theme park, anywhere in the world (and I been to DisneySea).

I also have criticisms of Rohde's work, such as overlooking practical considerations like crowd-flow in certain places (e.g., the nearly-hidden location of CTX), and overemphasizing single effects (e.g., even when the yeti worked, it didn't seem like the best use of the money that it cost, which could have been spread more evenly for different effects throughout the ride).
 

KIGhostGuy

Active Member
Amazing post that goes back to a conversation I had years ago with Ira West, one of the most legendary park designer in the industry. Ira West was part of Randall Duell design firm and he helped design throughout his career Magic Mountain, Kings Island, the Marriott's Great America parks, Parc Asterix, Samsung's Everland (their 8 million guests a year theme park in South Korea), Hersheypark transformation to a gated park, etc.

I met him at an industry event where Joe Rohde was receiving an award for Aulani and where he did a keynote speech about designing it. After the speech, I asked Ira West his honest opinion of Joe Rodhe. His answer was similar to what you said: worried about details than substance. Animal Kingdom was an awful park design from a guest flow and operational point of view and its only in preparation for Avatar that they started correcting the infrastructure.

Research trips are not a bad thing per say, but it should not occupy most of your financial and time ressources. Six Flags Magic Mountain Roaring Rapids has primitive, but still nice rock work around the later portion of the ride. Research trip for what they should look like? Ira West just pulled his photos from his rafting trip on the Colorado river that he went on before and that was what they used to make the river look more natural.
It’s a common misconception, but Randall Duell Designs did not actually do any work on Kings Island. Kings Island was laid out by the Coney Island management team, led by Gary Wachs. There were some architects/designers brought in for the “window dressing,” but Randall Duell and his company were not among them.
 

Movielover

Well-Known Member
He even ends the video with a promise to talk about why Eisner was ultimately good for the parks because he took creative risks; and even though his successors would have to fix those parks, they themselves probably wouldn’t have built anything in the first place.
Eisner saved the company and brought it back from the dead. Many people forget how much good he did for the parks and company. I also loved that he would do things like intro the Wonderful World of Disney movie's and other "face time" segments. It was kinda cool to see some passion there from the CEO. It was only after the failure of Euro Disneyland and the tragic death of Frank Wells that Eisner changed and began to micro manage everything, then him firing Katzenberg just led to huge downhill spiral. It's a shame really.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Eisner saved the company and brought it back from the dead. Many people forget how much good he did for the parks and company. I also loved that he would do things like intro the Wonderful World of Disney movie's and other "face time" segments. It was kinda cool to see some passion there from the CEO. It was only after the failure of Euro Disneyland and the tragic death of Frank Wells that Eisner changed and began to micro manage everything, then him firing Katzenberg just led to huge downhill spiral. It's a shame really.

Eisner and Co get too much credit for Ron Miller’s work.

Disney Channel, Touchstone Pictures and Home Video were set up under Miller.
 

_caleb

Well-Known Member
When it turns out great, it is all Joe. When it is an embarrassing creative mess, it's the evil executives. Got it.

RAISE YOUR HANDS TO BE SCANNED!!!!!!!

(Probably a bean counter in accounts payable that came up with that idiotic concept)

We get it. You don’t like Joe.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a dupe. I’m a fan of Joe’s work. I’ve seen what he’s capable of. So when he’s part of a project that doesn’t seem to be up to the quality of his other work, it makes sense to consider if maybe some other factors came into play.

Add to that the fact that Joe is a pretty outspoken guy: he sometimes gives hints for why things didn’t go according to plans.
 

Parker in NYC

Well-Known Member
We get it. You don’t like Joe.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a dupe. I’m a fan of Joe’s work. I’ve seen what he’s capable of. So when he’s part of a project that doesn’t seem to be up to the quality of his other work, it makes sense to consider if maybe some other factors came into play.

Add to that the fact that Joe is a pretty outspoken guy: he sometimes gives hints for why things didn’t go according to plans.
I'm so baffled (not at all) to read certain people's critiques of Joe. He doesn't hold back his political views, and that's going to get some people's panties in a twist. They'll probably say that this is all theme park related but trust me, it isn't.
 

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