Notice of Preparation of a Draft Subsequent Environmental Impact Report No. 352 and Scoping Meeting for the DisneylandForward Project

josh2000

Well-Known Member
Don't worry. I have been told by friends in commercial real estate that exact message was made loud and clear in Anaheim City Hall during the last 18 months. Painfully clear.
"Itā€™s as if somehow we should feel fortunate that Walt Disney chose Anaheim.ā€ -Dr. Jose Moreno, Anaheim City Councilman, speaking to the Wall Street Journal, September 17th, 2018

It's unfortunate that it took widespread economic devastation for them to understand. They should focus on creating jobs and other industry in Anaheim instead of impeding the city's biggest economic driver (responsible for over 78,000 jobs in Southern California).

If they don't like Disney, that's fine. But that's what Anaheim is known for, whether they like it or not.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
100% agreed. I have to admit -- you've been expressing this sentiment on this message board for quite some time (in the context of things like reworking Tomorrowland), and I've found the concern perhaps a bit too overblown. I do not feel that way anymore! In light of all the post-covid changes at Disneyland (and the objectives of the Chapek regime becoming quite clear), I am finding myself wanting to cling to the park as it stands right now. No reimaginings, no expansions, please! Disneyland is not perfect but just imagine the damage that could be done (do we really trust them to build a bridge from Critter Country to the Stitch Lot?).

Imagine one day looking at the Stitch Lot and thinking, "I liked it better as a parking lot."

Just to play devils advocate it could easily be down elegantly. I admit, when thinking of a bridge connecting Critter Country to the DTD lot i imagine them flattening Pooh corner and plopping down the I-5 freeway which of course is not how it would be done. Imagine if they just used the left side of the Pooh store and created a path (the size of the Critter Country path to GE) with a couple bends. That way you would preserve the tucked away feel of Critter Country as long as the path goes long enough before they construct anything that can be seen from Critter Country (aside from trees).
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Just to play devils advocate it could easily be down elegantly. I admit, when thinking of a bridge connecting Critter Country to the DTD lot i imagine them flattening Pooh corner and plopping down the I-5 freeway which of course is not how it would be done. Imagine if they just used the left side of the Pooh store and created a path (the size of the Critter Country path to GE) with a couple bends. That way you would preserve the tucked away feel of Critter Country as long as the path goes long enough before they construct anything that can be seen from Critter Country (aside from trees).

There are many such bridges and pedestiran overpasses done seamlessly and elegantly at Tokyo DisneySea. And that work was done over 20 years ago, so it's entirely possible for WDI to do in the 2020's or beyond.

All it takes is for Imagineering to spend a few bucks on the project and give it some thought.

The problem is that here in America, thanks to Disney's own press releases and the Michael Colglazier School Of Screwing Over The Community, when we think of "bridge" we think of something cheap and ugly and marring like this...

maxresdefault.jpg
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
In Tokyo DisneySea they have lots of bridges and scenic walkways that give you great views of the surroundings, and distant landmarks, and waterways beneath you.

But then there are also places in the park where the walkways go through tunnels and through canyons or otherwise obstructed viewing areas. These walkways go over service roads and ugly "backstage" areas they don't want you to see. But as you walk along them and over these bridges, you either don't realize you are walking over a bridge or don't realize you are being prevented from seeing streets and loading docks and service infrastructure below you.

It's entirely possible for WDI to create bridges over Disneyland Drive that won't seem like bridges or look like overpasses.

A few examples of walkways/bridges in Tokyo DisneySea that hide the busy roadways/service areas running alongside and beneath them...

Mysterious%20Island%2004.jpg


disney-sea-p5180299.jpg
 
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truecoat

Well-Known Member
In Tokyo DisneySea they have lots of bridges and scenic walkways that give you great views of the surroundings, and distant landmarks, and waterways beneath you.

But then there are also places in the park where the walkways go through tunnels and through canyons or otherwise obstructed viewing areas. These walkways go over service roads and ugly "backstage" areas they don't want you to see. But as you walk along them and over these bridges, you either don't realize you are walking over a bridge or don't realize you are being prevented from seeing streets and loading docks and service infrastructure below you.

It's entirely possible for WDI to create bridges over Disneyland Drive that won't seem like bridges or look like overpasses.

A few examples of walkways/bridges in Tokyo DisneySea that hide the busy roadways/service areas running alongside and beneath them...

zWNIzaw4-dzSpiuCPwE0BBt-U_lhYslnFkw0pJD1DbNnA4GGL_LlEdRRsX4_1fv55ieynmg4nJiSXHG0eYdviIGI59YBpEtYK9YeeEKU91Mq7sP_3Qjs1Wao_WUPCHf9GEGjhE4PUXbBblU3cXVMt7BnW3cxtGSSiTzLpKEaHB_IRUE


Mysterious%20Island%2004.jpg


disney-sea-p5180299.jpg

These two aren't the same. You are showing a bridge from outside the park vs inside the park views at DisneySea.

Here's the view from the topside of the bridge in Downtown Disney looking south and north on Disneyland Drive.

Disneyland bridge north.jpg


Disneyland bridge.jpg



Does it look as good as Disney Sea? No, but it never will. This is for a cross walk over the road and looks fine from the outside. I'm not sure why the monorail beams get a pass but the bridge has to some extravagant architecture. Especially when this is about the same view you'll see while crossing Harbor for 20-30 seconds.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
These two aren't the same. You are showing a bridge from outside the park vs inside the park views at DisneySea.

Sorry for the confusion, I thought we were talking about the views we'll get as park guests when we walk over the bridge from Critter Country to NatGeo Land or whatever it will be.

I agree, there's a big difference in expectations and needs when talking about seeing a bridge as a motorist or pedestrian as you travel along a city street, versus what you'd see as a paying park guest while walking over the bridge itself.

That doesn't change the fact they went way too cheap and ugly on the original Eastern Gateway pedestrian bridge during that awful period five years ago that Michael Colglazier was ruining decades-old relationships with the City of Anaheim.

Here's the view from the topside of the bridge in Downtown Disney looking south and north on Disneyland Drive.

View attachment 596539

View attachment 596540


Does it look as good as Disney Sea? No, but it never will. This is for a cross walk over the road and looks fine from the outside. I'm not sure why the monorail beams get a pass but the bridge has to some extravagant architecture. Especially when this is about the same view you'll see while crossing Harbor for 20-30 seconds.

True. But this is also for nothing more than a shopping mall that is free to enter. Expectations are wildly lower for that customer base. And the Downtown Disney bridge works very well at that, especially now that the landscaping has grown in all over that area.

If they are going to charge $150 or more to get in, and then demand an extra $15+ to ride E Tickets, when I'm walking over the bridge across Disneyland Drive from NatGeo Land to get back for my $19 Lightning Lane reservation at Tiana's Bayou Bash N' Splash, Presented by Ziploc, I better darn well not be able to tell I'm on a bridge over Disneyland Drive.

That's where the DisneySea analogies and standards should apply, in my opinion.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
The fact that shutting down Disneyland had such a dire economic consequence for Anaheim, should be a sign that Anaheim needs to diversify and find other avenues of supporting themselves, other than just putting all their eggs in the Disneyland basket.

You've said that before, and it's always a head scratcher.

Anaheim gets roughly 50% of its tax collection from the Resort District, primarily from the 17% per night hotel tax. (This is literally the Golden Goose that any city in America would kill for!) You're going to "diversify" Anaheim's economy by taxing it at the same rate as hotels and that's going to want to make businesses move to Anaheim?

Anaheim is a mid-sized city (population 346,000) about the size of New Orleans (population 383,000) or St. Louis (population 315,000). While Anaheim's population is more affluent than those two cities, and thus Anaheim residents have a higher level of expecations for city services for their tax dollars, Anaheim really does have a robust and diversified economy to support that tax collection.

The aerial photos show how much of Anaheim is turned over to zoning for industrial, warehousing & supply chain uses in red, aside from the Resort District in blue. There's also some hospitals and white collar business parks in the red shaded area, all within Anaheim city limits.

Anaheim3.png


Now, there is the problem of businesses and industries leaving Anaheim. Boeing used to have a big production facility in Anaheim, but Boeing moved it to Alabama. Etc., etc. But that's a problem facing all of California, not just Anaheim.

What exactly do you imagine Anaheim could do to diversify its economy more? And you are going to tax that new industry at the same high rates that could equal the Anaheim Resort District's 50% contribution to the city general fund?

The tourists who stay in an Anaheim hotel pay a 17% sales tax on their hotel tab to the city for the privilege of visiting Anaheim. What business would willingly move their facility to Anaheim to face a 17% tax rate on their goods and services?

I can just imagine that sales pitch to businesses looking to expand or move to SoCal.

Move Your Business To Anaheim! We'll Tax The Crap Out Of Your Customers Like They're A Stupid Tourist! 17% Sales Tax On Your Products! Sunny Weather And Disneyland Too!

That sales pitch is going to need some work. ;)
 
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Nirya

Well-Known Member
Gene Autry Way never made sense and it still confuses me why city planning people continue to defend it as this big deal.
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the confusion, I thought we were talking about the views we'll get as park guests when we walk over the bridge from Critter Country to NatGeo Land or whatever it will be.

I agree, there's a big difference in expectations and needs when talking about seeing a bridge as a motorist or pedestrian as you travel along a city street, versus what you'd see as a paying park guest while walking over the bridge itself.

That doesn't change the fact they went way too cheap and ugly on the original Eastern Gateway pedestrian bridge during that awful period five years ago that Michael Colglazier was ruining decades-old relationships with the City of Anaheim.



True. But this is also for nothing more than a shopping mall that is free to enter. Expectations are wildly lower for that customer base. And the Downtown Disney bridge works very well at that, especially now that the landscaping has grown in all over that area.

If they are going to charge $150 or more to get in, and then demand an extra $15+ to ride E Tickets, when I'm walking over the bridge across Disneyland Drive from NatGeo Land to get back for my $19 Lightning Lane reservation at Tiana's Bayou Bash N' Splash, Presented by Ziploc, I better darn well not be able to tell I'm on a bridge over Disneyland Drive.

That's where the DisneySea analogies and standards should apply, in my opinion.

I never know what I'm really responding to. I half read things respond in an internet sort of way and try to edit on the fly, lol.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
By they way, pre-Pandemic Anaheim had an annual city budget of $2 Billion. (with a B)

This 2019 article from the OC Register sums it up in just the first few sentences...

Anaheim City Council members will vote on a $2 billion budget for 2019-20 on Tuesday, June 18.

Itā€™s a balanced budget proposal that would spend $355 million from the general fund, which covers basic services such as police and fire, parks and road repair. Thatā€™s a 9 percent increase over the current fiscal year, mainly due to annual increases in city pension contributions and stepped-up homeless services including the opening of two city-funded shelters, city spokesman Mike Lyster said.


Hotel room taxes should continue to provide the biggest share of general fund revenue, with $174 million projected in 2019-20, followed by sales and then property taxes. All three revenue sources have been on a general upward trend for nearly the past decade.


A quick Google search on the two comparably sized cities I listed above, St. Louis and New Orleans, Anaheim spends far more money on city services than they do. Anaheim's budget is more than double that of New Orleans (admittedly a poor, Southern city, but one based on tourism, legacy pro sports teams, and celebrating Catholic holidays). St. Louis is a typical Midwest city, but relies more heavily than most on tourism via taxes on riverboat casinos and hotels.

New Orleans City Budget 2019 = $726 Million (city population 383,000)
St. Louis City Budget 2019 = $1.0 Billion (city population 315,000)
Anaheim City Budget 2019 = $2.0 Billion (city population 346,000)

 
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truecoat

Well-Known Member
By they way, pre-Pandemic Anaheim had an annual city budget of $2 Billion. (with a B)

This 2019 article from the OC Register sums it up in just the first few sentences...

Anaheim City Council members will vote on a $2 billion budget for 2019-20 on Tuesday, June 18.

Itā€™s a balanced budget proposal that would spend $355 million from the general fund, which covers basic services such as police and fire, parks and road repair. Thatā€™s a 9 percent increase over the current fiscal year, mainly due to annual increases in city pension contributions and stepped-up homeless services including the opening of two city-funded shelters, city spokesman Mike Lyster said.


Hotel room taxes should continue to provide the biggest share of general fund revenue, with $174 million projected in 2019-20, followed by sales and then property taxes. All three revenue sources have been on a general upward trend for nearly the past decade.


A quick Google search on the two comparably sized cities I listed above, St. Louis and New Orleans, Anaheim spends far more money on city services than they do. Anaheim's budget is more than double that of New Orleans (admittedly a poor, Southern city, but one based on tourism and legacy pro sports teams). St. Louis is a typical Midwest city, but relies more heavily than most on tourism via taxes on riverboat casinos and hotels.

New Orleans City Budget 2019 = $726 Million
St. Louis City Budget 2019 = $1.0 Billion
Anaheim City Budget 2019 = $2.0 Billion



Wth is Anaheim spending 2 billion on?
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Wth is Anaheim spending 2 billion on?

Roughly...

FY 2019/20 Adopted (in Millions)
General Fund 357.3
Other General Purpose 19.2
Special Revenue 214.1 (a lot of "quality of life" capital projects seem to be lumped in there)
Debt Service 33.4
Capital Projects 69.6
Enterprise 755.5 (see below)
Internal Service 297.5
Fiduciary 44.2

Obviously Enterprise funds are the big one, at $755 Million. I've always taken Enterprise in a city budget to mean the core services offered to residents and all the pensions and payrolls those departments get paid every year; city administration, police, fire, sewer, water, schools, and now stuff like homeless shelthers. But someone correct me if I'm off base on what Enterprise funds are for city services.

Since Anaheim owns the Convention Center outright themselves, that budget also likely gets pulled from Enterprise funds, I would imagine.

The General Fund in Anaheim seems to mostly go to quality of life stuff; parks, libraries, nature preserves, community centers, street beautification programs, etc.

 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Gene Autry Way never made sense and it still confuses me why city planning people continue to defend it as this big deal.

Yeah, it's dumb. Completely overbuilt and wasteful.

Looking at the planning documents from 2009 that got the latest extension built from I-5 to Haster, they really played up the need to connect to ARTIC and all the bullet trains that would be arriving from San Francisco every hour by now in this future year of 2021.

That bullet train vision for the 2020's obviously didn't pan out, and there's no one wandering around ARTIC today with fresh loaves of sourdough bread they bought 3 hours earlier on Fisherman's Wharf. There likely never will be.

But Gene Autry Way was planned as far back as the 1990's. They only used ARTIC more recently as its excuse why it needs to keep moving west and cutting through town because ARTIC was supposed to generate 10,000 riders per day within one year of its 2014 opening. And then ARTIC actually opened...

 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Can anyone shed light on the proposed closing of portions of Disneyland Drive?

Where do you see that? In the documents here that Darkbeer linked to, it still shows Disneyland Drive from Ball Road to Katella Ave.

Screenshot 2021-10-28 163152.png



And the vague yet wildly optimistic artist renderings Disney provided to try and schmooze local voters and politicians, Disneyland Drive still exists albeit modified and covered at points to join the two theme park properties together.

And I LOVE that the ugly Paradise Pier Hotel is still sitting there, untouched in this exotic future view.

disneyland-forward-disney-california-adventure-expansion-concept-art.jpg
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
What are the odds of this happening and not severely value engineered?

That depends on how long Bob Chapek sticks around.

If Chapek leaves within a year to spend more time with family, or persue exciting new opportunities, or write the next chapter, AND is then replaced by someone who knows to let the storytellers tell their stories instead of letting Finance and HR tell the stories, it could be a hugely impressive expansion of both Anaheim parks.

But if Chapek sticks around for at least another five years, or God forbid a decade, then this Disneyland Forward thing is going to be the theme park expansion equivalent of KiteTails.
 

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