Not so magical

[FlyoverFred]

You are correct that HIPAA has no bearing at all here... however trying to require some proof of 'medical necessity' would sink them fast when it comes to ADA compliance. The disabled are not required to carry any proof of necessity when it comes to public accommodations. If Disney were to try to filter access based on such criteria, they'd stand to deny legitimate users as well and get themselves in a(nother) lawsuit. ECVs would not fall under the safety exceptions in the ADA... Disney barely won the argument that Segways did.

Unfortunately we are stuck with the Disney World where anyone who wants an ECV is allowed to use one... in the name of inclusion.

I think the last sentences is certainly correct from a practical perspective. Disney will just include anyone who wants to be considered disabled. To invoke the ADA, however, you would first have to show you were within the included class of persons covered by the ADA, which is to say that you are actually a disabled person. An employer can require you to prove that you are disabled and need reasonable accommodation, so I don't know of any legal prohibition on Disney doing the same.

For example, here is an EEOC response to request for enforcement guidance that runs along the same lines:

"May an employer ask an individual for documentation when the individual requests reasonable accommodation?
Yes. When the disability and/or the need for accommodation is not obvious, the employer may ask the individual for reasonable documentation about his/her disability and functional limitations.(27) The employer is entitled to know that the individual has a covered disability for which s/he needs a reasonable accommodation."

 

[DisneySurprisePA]

I am is a Mother that is teaching her children that the upcoming trip is like everywere else. You are going to meet all kinds of people from all kinds of places. What I raise them to consider rude, may be perfectly acceptable to someone else, or not something they were ever taught was wrong. I can not change the fact in ANY crowd they will encounter all types of people. But what I do have input in is how my children deal with it. They are taught manners and use them. No it doesn't change the world, but it is doing my part. I can't do much about other people, but can do everything about how my children respond to other people's actions. I try to remind them no matter where you go or how someone acts; you have no idea what it is like to be in their shoes or what is happening that might have made their day a difficult one. Be pleasant, be kind, be respectful of others, and be understanding. They will have a wonderful time. A trip of a lifetime for them.

By the way, I am taking my straight A student out of school for it, with no regrets. If our school district can see fit to send the band on a class trip every year including several days in Disneyworld and a year later a week in Disneyland, then my children can have the same opportunities and it won't cost them anything to send her.

It isn't Disney's fault, they can only do so much. It starts at home, and remembering to pack your manners, but SOMETIMES, as my grandmother always said...you can educate ignorance away but you can't fix stupid.

 

[GrammieBee]

I can only repeat what has been said.
If there is a rule and it is not enforced, it is no rule at all.
If you reward bad behavior, it will only get worse.
If you tell someone they are supposed to enforce a rule and they have no support in their efforts, of course they will become unhappy with the situation and stop trying.
If a standard is not enforced, behavior will gradually sink to the lowest common denominator. A "who cares" and "I can do anything I want" atmosphere is created. Essentially, behavior is sinking to the level of those who are the least "civilized".

If a standard is set and enforced, after initial complaining, the great majority of the people will rise to the standard. For example, if a place has a dress code, or a no smoking rule, or a no photography rule and enforces any or all of them, you will find appropriate attire, no one smoking, and very few trying to take a picture. Plus, surprise!, they will still have plenty of customers.

Unfortunately, businesses, on the whole, do not want to lose paying customers,they do not want bad publicity and they do not want lawsuits. So the majority of the customers are stuck with the bad behavior of the few and gradually become more like them. It is not just a Disney problem.

 

[flynnibus]

To invoke the ADA, however, you would first have to show you were within the included class of persons covered by the ADA, which is to say that you are actually a disabled person.

False - there is no requirement for demonstrating, proving, or documenting the existence of a covered disability. That only has to happen in court - not a the time of interaction with a public accommodation.

An employer can require you to prove that you are disabled and need reasonable accommodation, so I don't know of any legal prohibition on Disney doing the same.

Because the interaction between employers and employees is covered by an entirely different part of the law (Title I vs Title III). The interaction between an employer and employee is much longer term and 'fixed' compared to a adhoc, unplanned encounter someone has with a public accommodation. In turn, the expectations of the public accommodation in terms of being 'ready' and amenable w/o discrimination are much higher.

Citing stuff about Title I constraints does not apply to Public Accommodations. In interacting with the public, the public accommodation must refrain from any type of screening or requirements that may ultimately lead to discriminating against legitimately covered persons. This is why even forcing people to REGISTER for DAS could technically be challenged and Disney has to justify.

But enough ADA tangents here - there are plenty of threads on the topic you could catch up on for the DAS topics.

All that matters here is... ECVs aren't going anywhere... ECVs have commonly been accepted as safe devices people can use without requiring special exceptions... and any attempts to limit who can use them is futile in our legal environment. The best thing Disney can do is discourage their usage and try to minimize their impact.

Like many things... the 'ease' of using/obtaining it is a big contributor to the abuse of it. The bigger the gain vs 'expense' there is... the more people will game it.

 

[216bruce]

Chiming in on the 'take kids out of school for Disney' discussion. We did it a few times when they were young. They are outstanding adults now- one is a teacher and the other is an engineer. If the week or less that they are out of school makes that much of a difference, well, there's probably a lot more than a trip to Disney to blame.

 

[kettcobb]

You know, I see this one pop up frequently on threads and "top Disney annoyances" polls (along with the related stroller and "kiddifying" of Disney comments) and I get a hearty chuckle everytime I see it. Why? Because they're typically made by people who either don't have kids or are older parents who don't remember what it was like to have small children.

Do you have any idea why a lot of parents result to putting their kids on their shoulders? Because adults who crowd front rows and prime viewing locations of said shows (parades, fireworks, etc) and then treat any attempts by the shorter set to get in front of them as incursions on their national borders. Honestly, it has been my experience that the only people that let kids in front of them so they can see are other people with kids.

A sampling of actual comments my son and daughter have been subjected to in previous years while politely asking for some room to squeeze in:
"Don't you touch me."
"I don't think so."
"If you wanted to see the parade, you should have gotten here sooner."
"..." This guy I thought was especially rude because he spent the entire parade on his smart phone and just stared at my son's futile attempts to get by him with a smirk.

So, up on our shoulders they went.

Sure, anyone who does this should be aware of their surroundings and do their best to not negatively impact other's viewing experiences, I just find it ironic you (and others) are railing against parents for blocking the views of people behind them but not those in front that are blocking kid's views. As long as Disney doesn't provide dedicated "kids only" sections for all shows and allows inconsiderate adults to hog all frontal viewing spots, I reject calls to prevent kids from being able to enjoy the parks like everyone else.


I think it's clear most have us have experienced people in ECV'S that didn't have full control. I for one remember helping someone in one who got stuck on some steps after accidentally throwing theirs into reverse.

That being said, your bolded statement is a perspective sorely lacking in these discussions. It's easy to criticize ECV drivers and call for their banning, but few people have experienced what it's like for someone in one.

Sadly, my eyes were opened to how the disabled are treated by the general public a couple years ago. My wife and I were celebrating our 10th Anniversary with a day at the MK (since we had our honeymoon there), but because she was 2 weeks away from delivering our daughter, I pushed her around in a wheelchair.

Attitudes and behavior towards her ranged from ignorance and obliviousness to righteous indignation. The most common thing I noticed was people walking around then back in front of us as if we were slowing everything down.

2 incidents in particular, however, stick out in my mind. I was pushing her along when a guy just kept backing up, taking a picture. He backed right into her, knocking her drink out of her hand. He yelled at us, though, for running into him.

Later, as we were leaving, we decided to hit up the Emporium on our way out. I was pushing her towards one of the curb ramps that leads into the store when I noticed a guy walking towards the same ramp at the same pace and at roughly a 45* angle from us. We looked at each other, and I figured he'd just let us use the ramp and he'd step up on the curb. Instead, he jogged to beat us to the ramp. He turned around as if to say, "Yeah, I just beat you."

All these topics go to show is we all need to do a better job of being aware of our surroundings and more considerate of others, though some have far more work to do than others.

We travelled with 6 children in our party, ages were 8,6,5,4,3 and 2.

 

[kettcobb]

I'd also add that obviously Disney can't do all of the things in my post, lots of things are just annoying.

They could address a couple though with some simple rules. They already have rules such as smoking areas...

 

[Matt_Black]

I whistle jazzy tunes and skip like a school kid whenever I go to Memphis, but that doesn't mean it's not the third most dangerous city in the country and that bad things aren't happening. Same goes for Disney. Just because some people choose to turn a blind eye to things doesn't mean they won't happen.

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

 

[DisneySurprisePA]

Matt_Black...how absolutely true! Has to start somewhere.

 

[yensid67]

#1- I would want complaints dealt with however, maybe a guest complaining will get a new or upgraded room, or perhaps a room at a different resort.

#2-The 20 to a room thing would have to be policed, as that is simply a public safety hazard, but I have never seen evidence of that in person.

#1 I agree, but just by being upgraded to a better room or whatever ISN'T solving the problem, it's only putting a Band-Aid on it until it peels off again and begins to get infected!

#2 I was being a little harsh only referring to the illegals that are to blame for this...a nice Hispanic/Mexican couple rent a nice APARTMENT for their family of 3 and next thing you know, there are 20+ people living in that apartment. Just sayin!

In conclusion, I know Disney WILL NOT do anything about tour groups, BUT what they could do for other guests is #1 Let the guests know that there are tour groups in excess in the parks today...like they do with Gay Days!
#2 Give tours certain days that they are to be in the parks and make it known information for guests planning.
#3 BUILD A SOUTH AMERICAN PARK for them! This would solve everything!

 

[tribbleorlfl]

We travelled with 6 children in our party, ages were 8,6,5,4,3 and 2.

Which is why I said "typically." Fortunately, someone else in this thread also criticising kids on shoulders confirmed my observation as their children are now grown professionals.

Care to address the rude behavior that prompts many parents to prop their kids up in the first place?

 

[jaklgreen]

To be honest, I can't think of any reason that I wouldn't keep this discourse friendly. I no longer have a horse in this race. I do, however, feel that because of the schools "mission" the rights of parents and students are being trampled on. Do I know what you folks are trying to do? Yes, very much so, but, the threats and consequences to the child are way to harsh considering that they have no real say in what their parents will ultimately do.

It's not the fact that it should be very clear that their missing time can and probably will cause a lessening of success in their school work, might even cause them to be held back or not graduate due to not meeting the standards, it's more that instead of spelling that out, the immediate reaction is we are going to punish your children in a non-repairable way because you are going against us. If a parent takes their child out for a couple of days are they any further behind then if they had been sick for a couple of days? That doesn't carry any super punishment other then what I spelled out of added need to make up what was missed in order to get back on track. I understand why, I just do not agree with the way it is handled. And is the real threat of failure equal in every child? Does an honor student not have a better chance of maintaining the standard then say someone that is just barely hanging on? I realize that there is no easy answer to this problem, but, in my mind the current school systems need to find a better way to discourage parents from scheduling trips during the school year other then severe threats against the individual that has the least say in their own destiny at that point in time.

I completely agree with you. A few years ago we had to take our kids out of school for a few days for an out of town family wedding. My then 8yo daughter came home crying the day I sent the note to her teacher. The teacher told her that she should not go because she will be in trouble if she does. What kind of person says that to an 8 yo? Needless to say my butt was in the principles office the next day.

 

[mousehockey37]

Wow. You are suggesting that Disney ruin a show to make a point? I am sure that will make for a very magical night when during Wishes, some 'actor' puts a kid on his shoulders and the whole show stops to address it. Yeah, that will work......

So you are in favor of damaging show to 'catch' people using false guests, but you are against a CM's coming out of character to tell somebody smoking in world showcase to stop? I am all in favor of CM's coming out of character to address something, no need to call in and wait for the swat team.

Yes, guest behavior can be bad, but like I said, addressing small things can make it worse. Imagine how nice it would be when you get on small world next time with your kids and when a boat returns and guest is told to not take anymore flash pictures, and it escalates to a near fist fight.

You don't have to ruin a show, but you do have to start somewhere. Think about certain towns you travel in/through. There are places that you learn quickly that when the speed limit drops, you slow down. I've been through a town where the highway itself for a long stretch (outside of the town) is 55 mph. However, this one little town drops the speed limit to 35, and it is strictly enforced. You just can't zip through it like other places. You get caught or see people getting pulled over, you know for the next time to already be slowing down ahead of time. Transfer this to Disney... They need to make an official announcement, set a date, and then enforce... It doesn't matter what they pick, but start with one or two things and eventually as people get reprimanded, the word will spread and less people will hopefully do the offending behavior.

As for the CM's and their character. It's a fine line with staying in or coming out of character. This is where the CM's need to be taught how to tactfully, in character, be able to enforce rules. As for something with excessive flash photos? It would be interesting to see something like the Haunted Mansion get stopped and offenders pulled off by the "undead crew" and escorted out of the ride and dealt with. It can be done and honestly, if 30 seconds to a minute to remove someone like that makes the ride better for everyone else, why not do it?

 

[mousehockey37]

With that said, if you are taking dozens of pictures with the red eye on during a dark ride, then it becomes criminal, and the CM's should take your camera away.

Yeah, some of those cameras and the lenses on them are worth well over $5000. There won't ever be a scenario where they will take someone's camera away. If that's the case then they'd better be taking away strollers and ECV's and iPads and.....

 

[NelsonRD]

Yeah, some of those cameras and the lenses on them are worth well over $5000. There won't ever be a scenario where they will take someone's camera away. If that's the case then they'd better be taking away strollers and ECV's and iPads and.....

Taking the camera away was a joke. Where is the sense of humor on this board sometimes? Clearly I did not seriously suggest that CM's should be robbing peoples cameras...

 

[mousehockey37]

Taking the camera away was a joke. Where is the sense of humor on this board sometimes? Clearly I did not seriously suggest that CM's should be robbing peoples cameras...

To some people here, that is actually a feasible punishment that they would see fit. So that's why I answered the way I did.

Now to continue the joke however and keep some humor going... if Disney would like to enforce some rules, how about we get a few CM's on bike or segway in the World Showcase and have them do some "traffic stops" on ECV drivers that are "drinking around the world". LOL.

 

[NelsonRD]

To some people here, that is actually a feasible punishment that they would see fit. So that's why I answered the way I did.

Now to continue the joke however and keep some humor going... if Disney would like to enforce some rules, how about we get a few CM's on bike or segway in the World Showcase and have them do some "traffic stops" on ECV drivers that are "drinking around the world". LOL.

I agree, there are some on this board that do think that is acceptable punishment.
I would argue this is the same group that thinks Disney is so greedy and unethical they would then sell such confiscated devices on ebay after.

I would admit, when I was there last I saw 2 different vehicles that appeared to be stopped by police. Seeing the flashing lights did take away some of the magic of being immersed in the Disney experience for me. I understand it may have been warranted, but from my view, it was a distraction. Insert the "CM's drive crazy and deserve it..." or "Drive properly and you won't have to worry..." or "There are just doing their job..." responses here.....

 

[sjhym333]

I live in Orlando and travel from the Orlando airport frequently, so I see tourists coming to and leaving all the time. From the rude behavior I have seen on the many planes I have been on, the rude behavior I see in the parks does not surprise me. The other day I watched a mother hold an entire plane hostage by refusing to sit down so that plane could taxi because she needed something in the overhead bin.

The other thing I would say is that I overhear a lot of people on planes who are heading to WDW and the misinformation that they have is sometimes mind boggling. I think the confusion over the whole experience, the cost to be on vacation, the pressure of providing a fun time for the family all play into the way some people act while at the parks.

I would also say...and now I sound like my father (uggg)...it seems to me that people in general are ruder today then in the past. Common courtesy seems to be a lost art.

 

[NelsonRD]

I blame lawyers. They have installed this "You are somebody" mentality, and the "How dare you be wronged", along with the "Look at what everybody else is doing/has except you". I think this is the main reason everybody is so selfish now. Which is funny because they promote it by "Helping people", but all that has been done is the opposite.

 

[mousehockey37]

I live in Orlando and travel from the Orlando airport frequently, so I see tourists coming to and leaving all the time. From the rude behavior I have seen on the many planes I have been on, the rude behavior I see in the parks does not surprise me. The other day I watched a mother hold an entire plane hostage by refusing to sit down so that plane could taxi because she needed something in the overhead bin.

Depending on how long the delay was, I'm surprised she wasn't refused her flight and escorted off the plane.

The other thing I would say is that I overhear a lot of people on planes who are heading to WDW and the misinformation that they have is sometimes mind boggling.

Not a surprise. People think they know things through stuff they've read online (these boards and such) or heard from friends or remembered the way it was 20 years ago... If you listen while you are at the resorts or on Disney transportation, you'll hear all sorts of stories. The best are the ones where you yourself know that certain things are closed or under refurb and the family is sitting there going on about how they're going into the park and doing that ride first. I just kinda sit there and say to myself "boy are you in for a big disappointment".

I blame lawyers. They have installed this "You are somebody" mentality, and the "How dare you be wronged", along with the "Look at what everybody else is doing/has except you". I think this is the main reason everybody is so selfish now. Which is funny because they promote it by "Helping people", but all that has been done is the opposite.

As long as there's a lawyer that will take any case, regardless of how frivolous it is, people will try to sue for anything and everything. I always think of Lionel Hutz from the Simpsons any time I see one of those commercials for "Do you suffer from.... You may be eligible for a cash reward... Call us now".

To further this, any lawyer that thinks they can get a client with a good enough case to take on Disney and either settle or win a court case, that's a "win" to them as far as their resume, so, yeah, I'm not surprised there's people that don't sue for things like "Florida weather being too hot in the summer" or "my kid got brainfreeze from eating his Mickey bar too fast", etc...