"Normalization of deviance" and Walt Disney World

baymenxpac

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I stumbled upon a post from Lifehacker, which discusses the occurrence of normalization of deviance (https://lifehacker.com/how-tiny-mistakes-cause-huge-disasters-1832786837). In short, normalization of deviance is present when tiny concessions are made within a system that is bit to withstand some misuse. From the article:

"A certain road, for example, is built for a 50 MPH speed limit. But because drivers will always push it, the engineer makes sure the road is safe all the way up to 70 MPH under normal conditions. Inevitably, drivers end up taking it at 60 MPH, since everyone knows that’s still safe. And then a few people figure it must be safe to drive a little faster than the 'normal' 60 MPH. And a few go even faster. And then it rains, and someone still goes 80 MPH and they crash and die."

In the post, the metaphor is extended out to an individual's personal life, and as a father of young children, i found it to be incredible poignant. But I also wanted to share it because of this post in the comment section, which makes it relevant to Walt Disney World:

"It’s funny, I’m in the bar business and while I’ve never known of the phrase, I harp on it all the time. Not replacing a light bulb, no big deal, nobody will notice. You stop noticing too. Glass door on cooler smudged? Faucet on bathroom sink cracked? Gum on wall?

No single one of these things will have a discernible impact on your business, but if you stop staying on top of it, next thing you know your nice joint is regarded as dumpy and your market flees to a different nice bar."

I know there's this false equivalency on the boards: "Pixie Dusters" versus "The Gloom and Doomers." Some people just say, "It's Disney World. Enjoy it, or don't go. LOL Shorter lines for all of us." The other side has long-time experiences with the product, and is frustrated when they feel it fails to deliver on the bar it set for itself decades ago. I fall more toward the latter, but err on the side of knowing what I can/cannot control, with the actions of publicly-held corporations falling squarely into the 'cannot control' category.

But this is at the core of what people are talking about when they talk about how things "used to be." One price hike, or one AA being down, or one piece of garbage floating down Main Street...they're not going to change how you view Disney World. But when the variances add up, the system can fail.

Is Disney going broke any time soon? Of course not. People still come out in droves and pay the larger prices for what is arguably a lesser product than was available to them for the first 25 years of the resort. But there is a reason why the Titantic was called an "unsinkable ship" before it inevitably sank. There is hubris in ignoring the small things; overlooking the tiny mistakes until they add up until they become larger ones.

I'm not really looking to start yet another thread on people debating why, in their view, things are amazing at the resort versus why they're not. This is really just to show the mindset behind the critics of the current product, and why I believe there's significant reason to heed those warnings.
 

Shouldigo12

Well-Known Member
I understand what you're saying in your post, but I think what the other side of this argument doesn't see (the "Doom and Gloomers" as you called them) is that the people who are on "Pixie Duster" side of things- and I would like to point out here I don't like these either of these terms- don't see the problems you guys often bring up. I don't see oveflowing trashcans, rude CMs, and classic rides being overtaken by those horrible IPs. I saw a beautiful clean park, with friendly CMs ready to help me anytime I needed it, and new rides being added to parks that were in desperate need of something fresh. We're not ignoring the problems, we just don't experience those problems.

I understand that if ypu have been experiencing some of these issues, you obviously would not be feeling super warm about the direction DW is heading. But, its also important to understand that when you're complaining about unemptied trash cans who never saw one more than half full on their trip (whether that was due to luck, diligent staff, or some other reason) as evidence that the parks are going downhill, it makes sense that they're not going to see your point of view very easily.
 

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
I have brought up this same concept a number of times when it comes to height requirements. The ride height is 48" and you get somebody complaining that their kid is 47.75 inches and that it's "just a quarter of an inch" they should let them on. It's the same thing, you let that kid on, and then a 47.50 kid wants on and so forth.

This is not a new concept, regardless of what it is called, declining by degrees, scope creep, normalization of deviance, lack of situational awareness, watch the pennies and the dollars take care of themselves, or any of a bunch of other terms.
 

baymenxpac

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I understand what you're saying in your post, but I think what the other side of this argument doesn't see (the "Doom and Gloomers" as you called them) is that the people who are on "Pixie Duster" side of things- and I would like to point out here I don't like these either of these terms- don't see the problems you guys often bring up. I don't see oveflowing trashcans, rude CMs, and classic rides being overtaken by those horrible IPs. I saw a beautiful clean park, with friendly CMs ready to help me anytime I needed it, and new rides being added to parks that were in desperate need of something fresh. We're not ignoring the problems, we just don't experience those problems.

I understand that if ypu have been experiencing some of these issues, you obviously would not be feeling super warm about the direction DW is heading. But, its also important to understand that when you're complaining about unemptied trash cans who never saw one more than half full on their trip (whether that was due to luck, diligent staff, or some other reason) as evidence that the parks are going downhill, it makes sense that they're not going to see your point of view very easily.

absolutely. it's a good point. if you haven't experienced these things, then you're certainly less apt to be affected by them. FWIW, when i'm at WDW, i don't look for things to complain about. i'm on vacation, and want a break from that kind of stuff. i think most critics' point would be there is a fair greater likelihood now that you'd run into something not up to disney standards than you would have at any point from 1974-to-1993.
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
I stumbled upon a post from Lifehacker, which discusses the occurrence of normalization of deviance (https://lifehacker.com/how-tiny-mistakes-cause-huge-disasters-1832786837). In short, normalization of deviance is present when tiny concessions are made within a system that is bit to withstand some misuse. From the article:


I know there's this false equivalency on the boards: "Pixie Dusters" versus "The Gloom and Doomers." Some people just say, "It's Disney World. Enjoy it, or don't go. LOL Shorter lines for all of us." The other side has long-time experiences with the product, and is frustrated when they feel it fails to deliver on the bar it set for itself decades ago. I fall more toward the latter, but err on the side of knowing what I can/cannot control, with the actions of publicly-held corporations falling squarely into the 'cannot control' category.

But this is at the core of what people are talking about when they talk about how things "used to be." One price hike, or one AA being down, or one piece of garbage floating down Main Street...they're not going to change how you view Disney World. But when the variances add up, the system can fail.

Is Disney going broke any time soon? Of course not. People still come out in droves and pay the larger prices for what is arguably a lesser product than was available to them for the first 25 years of the resort. But there is a reason why the Titantic was called an "unsinkable ship" before it inevitably sank. There is hubris in ignoring the small things; overlooking the tiny mistakes until they add up until they become larger ones.

I'm not really looking to start yet another thread on people debating why, in their view, things are amazing at the resort versus why they're not. This is really just to show the mindset behind the critics of the current product, and why I believe there's significant reason to heed those warnings.


Some interesting points.
So this is just my take and these are very broad.

1) Actually I think the "small" things are not what most folks here complain about. I would totally agree with you if I saw "overflowing" trash cans, lol and the one time I posted pictures of my trip I was told that the reason why the parks were clean is because it was a "slow" period. Mainly it's the changing of the "style". how there is too much "IP", that they are getting rid of the original boring rides and how "Epcot" is no longer what "Walt" envision. well you know what, no disrespect implied butWalt is dead and the public doesn't really care what his original vision was. they want a park with fun stuff to do. For whatever reason the general public wants IP.

Now I always, always admit that I did not go to Disney during these "golden" days and I've watched a bunch of Martins video and not one has made me say "I wish they would build more rides like that". so it could be that I don't know what I'm missing.

2) Next, it's not that folks complain, it's that they complain and continue to go. Sorry I can't understand that mentality although when I question I usually get "oh we still had a good time". 🤔 Really? If you go on a vacation and all you do is remember the bad things or all you can do is complain, not to be cruel that's "shame on you". Unlike the challenger, Disney is a business, so their primary goal is to make money, IMO the most effective way to initiate change is to effect the bottom line. That's what would get Disney's attention.

3) Those thing would change how I feel about the world, if I started seeing dirty parks and broken parts. I've said it before when I start having bad trips, I start going other places. But could it be that one of the problems is some folks simply don't understand why we all aren't mad at the world? I have no issues with IP being in the parks, I happy that they got rid of maelstrom and the GMR, lol and I know it's sacrilegious but my family actually liked toy story land (which I was told that obviously I have no taste because of that).

Lastly perspective has a lot to do with it. The article mentioned how as a new father things like the laundry getting done and dishwasher getting run take on new importance. lol, well I can tell you when I had 3 babies/toddlers running around I did not get a rats patooie if my house got clean. get the laundry "dried and folded"?? are you kidding me?? you want folded laundry that's why God invented the dry cleaners. so for me, running across a grouchy CM is not in anyway going to leave a lasting impression on me. I've worked with John q public so my perspective is different. I'm always amazed that anyone would want to deal with some of the idiots with credit cards that I've run across.
 
Last edited:

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
I think Mayor Giuliani called it "community policing." Same concept. Same results: let the little things go, and the big things follow.


Maybe Disney is doing it backwards, I think they are addressing the big things which basically was their parks were getting old and tired.
 

LeighM

Well-Known Member
The only time I've ever noticed trash in the parks was in the Buzz Lightyear ride. I was less annoyed at the castmembers who couldn't pick up the trash while the ride was in operation and more annoyed at the visitors that thought it was okay to throw their trash on the ground while waiting in line. But littering in all forms is just a huge pet peeve of mine and I notice it everywhere I go.
 

MattFrees71

Well-Known Member
I definitely see the lack of genuineness and sincerity in many of the CM's. It's to the point where it's about half and half I've encountered are workers who are no different than many non-Disney establishments and ones that still display the "classic Disney service." Although even many of those of the latter seem to do it like a facade, or with a plastic smile, going through the motions... I'll be posting soon on some....experiences.... I've had with CM's as of late.
 

Skibum1970

Well-Known Member
I tend to notice poor behavior on behalf of the guests more so than by CM's. Littering, being annoying by stopping in the middle of the walkway to check a phone, walking slowly side by side and blocking walkways, and other behaviors. I really try to not pay any attention to a lot of it as it will simply bring down a vacation. My bigger complaint would probably be when Disney goes so long without new rides or builds new rides that do not have high capacities. However, I can see where observing situations where the parks started to slip as being bothersome. Just like a ride that habitually goes down because of poor maintenance or provides a bad ride experience due to age and lack of maintenance.
 

bUU

Well-Known Member
The theory seems to imply that if nothing blocks it trends will continue infinitely, that prices will increase faster and faster and quality will go down deeper and deeper without end. I don't think that is the case. As posted speed limits on highways go up the number of people speeding does go down, because the speed limits become what most reasonable people consider the right speed for that road. And I think that applies to the parks. Disney won't increase prices any faster than we are willing to pay those prices and they won't change services in any way that upsets us so much that we stop going enough to make a difference to them financially.
 

kjb101791

Active Member
98% of the people on these forums are avid Disney fans and know the way it should be. Does the casual guest realize most shortcomings? I often wonder how frequently animatronics were broken, etc, throughout the years. There are also more attractions now than ever, so more things to make a big list on when stuff does break or need attention. Assuming maintenance cast members are hired at a rate proportional to the increase in attractions and people through the gate, the rate may stay the same, but it can be easy to get angry about how many things are broken. Is the ratio of poor to good things in the park worse, or have we become more aware when other people point them out online? I'm not saying it is one way or the other, but a weighted average should at least be thought about.

TL;DR The Yeti being permabroken is skewing the statistics
 

disneyfireman

Well-Known Member
Imho. WDW is a good as ever. DLR is better than ever. Disneyland is just plain unbeatable. We have never had any issues or thought...anything but wow! that was a great vacation. As for people? We don’t pay attention really. We do what we do. We stay in our lane mind our own business and do our vacation our way. We make sure WE have a great time. No one else matters to me. Just my family. life is happier when you just mind ones business and go on with life.
But Disney. Just PERFRCT imho.
The doom and gloomers can whine to them selves. I ain’t listning..
As for genuineness of CMs. I don’t expect anyone to kiss our butts. All I ask is the park is clean. Which it always is. And we are safe. Which we always are. I really don’t care what attitude a CM has. It has no bearing on my happiness.
 
Last edited:

World_Showcase_Lover007

Well-Known Member
I think you are largely spot on.

As the experience & entertainment value of WDW goes down and prices go up, we still go to the parks. Why? Nostalgia. It was so good “back when” that they hooked us for life, and now we can’t imagine not going, even though we see the pitfalls.

But...What about my daughter?...will she still have that feeling of “wow this is so great, it’s worth all the money they charge”? Maybe not, so maybe she stops going and doesn’t bring her kids to WDW. It will just be another place that charges premium prices without a premium experience to her.

It’s a long term game and Disney will lose if things stay going the direction they have been. They won’t lose with us, but they will lose with the future...aka Tomorrow’s Child (a bit ironic if I do say so lol).
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
I understand what you're saying in your post, but I think what the other side of this argument doesn't see (the "Doom and Gloomers" as you called them) is that the people who are on "Pixie Duster" side of things- and I would like to point out here I don't like these either of these terms- don't see the problems you guys often bring up. I don't see oveflowing trashcans, rude CMs, and classic rides being overtaken by those horrible IPs. I saw a beautiful clean park, with friendly CMs ready to help me anytime I needed it, and new rides being added to parks that were in desperate need of something fresh. We're not ignoring the problems, we just don't experience those problems.

I understand that if ypu have been experiencing some of these issues, you obviously would not be feeling super warm about the direction DW is heading. But, its also important to understand that when you're complaining about unemptied trash cans who never saw one more than half full on their trip (whether that was due to luck, diligent staff, or some other reason) as evidence that the parks are going downhill, it makes sense that they're not going to see your point of view very easily.

I am with you on this. I have been going since 1993, I have never seen "filthy" bathrooms, over flowing trash cans, or rude cast members. I have seen people drop things on the ground, being nasty to cast members and those who leave a mess in the bathroom. But all of those things have been taken care of almost immediately. There are things that I wish Disney would do different, rides that were still there, foods that I wish they had, etc. But I am 1 person, others what different things. No one person is going to get everything that they want all the time.
 

Skibum1970

Well-Known Member
50 years of driving and I've NEVER seen that happen yet.

I'm fairly certain that studies have shown people increase speeds and speed just as much when speed limits are raised. The person who does 73 in a 65 MPH zone will do 77 in a 70 mph zone. Driving on I-70, I-71 where the speed limit is 70 will show that. If you're doing 70, you better be in the slow lane as you will passed like you are sitting still.
 

MickeyCB

Well-Known Member
My husband and I are 69 and 59 respectively. We definitely traveled to Disney in "the good old days". My mother took us as teenagers in 1975. And interestingly, while we have increased our attendance (became DVC members in 2015), there are definitely differences in the beauty of a Disney park "back then" and now.

I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, but still remember being in awe of the gorgeous landscaping, that was never less than perfect. The amazing topiaries on the way into the MK and truly no trash whatsoever. I remember loving the stories of how the only time work occurred in the parks was at night. And there was definitely not one cast member who wasn't insanely nice and helpful.

When I go into a store at home, or a restaurant or hotel you can tell instantly which places have strong management teams and which are poor (don't care or have no control). I don't know if Disney has just become such a large beast that they can't possibly manage the small important things, or just sadly are so corporate and so large they don't see or care about these small things. As the OP says and is absolutely spot on about, it is ALL of these small things (in decline) that are signs that Disney is drifting from it's core values/mission.

One note I will add, is people coming to the parks can be absolutely miserable in their behaviors, to their environment, fellow park goers and certainly to cast members. (I do want to give a shout out to the cast members who handle these people well, but the strain on the CM"s is obvious and they aren't always as pleasant and helpful as they could be, and used to be, to customers). But, if Disney is to continue to be THE vacation destination, they have to figure out new and innovative ways to manage these customers and the problems they generate.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom