No New Nightastic According to Al Lutz

[AEfx]

When I was at DLR in October it was very clear that a large chunk of the people were not Southern Californians... I asked a couple CMs (including the one leading our Walking Tour) about the Locals/ LD mix and the same answer was that the mix used to be solidly local, but that these days the ratio was changing a lot..... my impression was that depending on the time of year it would be nearly equal or even better. Shocked me after reading all these forums for so long...

Besides, a lot of us are Local to WDW....and I am so darn sick of that EXCUSE that makes it so easy for TDO to sit on their laurels...... Quality at DLR should not be way above the Quality at WDW.... its just plain BULL!

Whoa...simmah down now.

Here's the difference that I think you and some of the later replies are missing:

1) Disneyland is more dependent on locals who may not be "fans". They are dependent on families that buy the passes as entertainment for their family. In spite of the couple of CM's you've spoken to, on the nights and weekends especially - yes, a large portion are locals. Locals that they have to keep entertained with "new" promotions and such so they maintain their passes.

2) Yes, WDW *is* different. Someone in a later post compared us "regulars" who go several times a year even though we may live 1K miles away to those locals. However, that's not a valid comparison. WE ALREADY DRANK THE KOOL-AID. We are super-fans. The locals at Disneyland that these promotions cater to are NOT super-fans. Are there local super-fans? Of course. But the majority of them are middle-class families who invest the money for some place to go with their kids, not so much specifically because they love Disney.

They are very different markets. That is NOT an excuse for poor upkeep at WDW, or anything else, but an acknowledgement that the marketing campaigns (and don't be fooled, that's all "Nighttastic", even HMH, or anything else is) will differ greatly.

 

[menamechris]

Here's the difference that I think you and some of the later replies are missing:

1) Disneyland is more dependent on locals who may not be "fans". They are dependent on families that buy the passes as entertainment for their family. In spite of the couple of CM's you've spoken to, on the nights and weekends especially - yes, a large portion are locals. Locals that they have to keep entertained with "new" promotions and such so they maintain their passes.

2) Yes, WDW *is* different. Someone in a later post compared us "regulars" who go several times a year even though we may live 1K miles away to those locals. However, that's not a valid comparison. WE ALREADY DRANK THE KOOL-AID. We are super-fans. The locals at Disneyland that these promotions cater to are NOT super-fans. Are there local super-fans? Of course. But the majority of them are middle-class families who invest the money for some place to go with their kids, not so much specifically because they love Disney.

They are very different markets. That is NOT an excuse for poor upkeep at WDW, or anything else, but an acknowledgement that the marketing campaigns (and don't be fooled, that's all "Nighttastic", even HMH, or anything else is) will differ greatly.

I think i am still missing your point. How would CA families be different from FL families? You do realize there is a whole city here in Orlando besides Disney World, right? In fact, its one of the fastest growing cities in the country - and has been for years now. Why would you not think those families in Central Florida would just as prone to go to WDW with their families as in CA? In fact, from what I understand Anaheim is quite a drive from a "major" city in CA. WDW is 20 minutes up I-4 from downtown Orlando.

 

[wolf359]

It upsets me to see when Disney "fans" defend Disney for charging the same prices (or raising them) and constantly offering LESS. How is that defendable at all? Don't you want to get the most out of your visit, and the most for your dollar? Those occasional or once in a lifetime visitors have the same goals. For the first 25 years or so WDW constantly strived to offer MORE for their guests.

I hope this doesn't upset you too much further, but I just don't think Nightastic is deserving of being the lightning rod in the storm of worry.

First, it isn't like there was a long tradition of great Summer Nightastic celebrations we cruelly had taken away from us. They tried it once last year, and it obviously wasn't successful enough or interesting enough to bring back.

Second, it was a cheap and anticlimactic promotion. I guess they didn't think "just" bringing back the Electrical Parade was marketable enough on its own, so they cooked up two last minute minor alterations and called it a celebration. Making the uproar even more ironic is that the only three elements it brought (Main Street Electrical Parade, different fireworks, and alternate Tower of Terror) were all widely criticized last year for not being as good as the regular versions they replaced.

This summer we still have the Main Street Electrical Parade, Hollywood Studios is offering an "alternate" Star Tours, and there will still be fireworks at the Magic Kingdom. Plus there are new upgrades at the Haunted Mansion and a new place to meet Mickey Mouse.

So there's actually even more they could have weakly linked together into a "celebration" this summer, yet still they chose not to. Could it be because they knew these new offerings stood just as good of a chance in drawing crowds on their own merits without needing to be wrapped up in a vapid bit of marketing?

I enjoy the unexpected changes and special celebrations just like anyone else, I just can't find any of the same righteous indignation so many others are coming up with for this particular event. I really don't need to be told I should be having an extra special time; not when I'm already at Walt Disney World. Besides, most of the time when I have to be told something is extra special, it usually isn't. In the case of Nightastic, I definitely think that was the case.

 

[AEfx]

I think i am still missing your point. How would CA families be different from FL families? You do realize there is a whole city here in Orlando besides Disney World, right? In fact, its one of the fastest growing cities in the country - and has been for years now. Why would you not think those families in Central Florida would just as prone to go to WDW with their families as in CA? In fact, from what I understand Anaheim is quite a drive from a "major" city in CA. WDW is 20 minutes up I-4 from downtown Orlando.

First, it's not my point, LOL, it's just the facts of the situation and the history of the parks.

As to Orlando, what happens when you go 50 miles in either direction? And Disneyland is not very far from Los Angeles - unless you get stuck on the freeway at rush hour.

Disneyland is located in Southern California. California has more than twice the population of Florida, and a very large portion of that audience is within a few hours drive of Disneyland. Add to that the very different make-up of that population (not a lot of retirees who end up moving to Los Angeles to live out their golden years), and the differences in set-up, and you can see clearly why the situation is much different.

It's also the attitude. Disneyland is part of Southern California culture. It's "their" park. You don't get that view in Florida. Part of this is the price - it's a lot cheaper to get an AP at Disneyland for a family than in FL.

This isn't stuff I'm just assuming and making up as I go, this is just how it is. They are very different parks with very different clientele.

And, as the poster above me said - we've got MORE this summer than last summer, they just aren't using the stupid "NIGHTASTIC!" label on it. It's just a marketing tool.

I can't believe people are bellyaching about not being subjected to another meaningless, artificial marketing campaign, LOL.

 

[menamechris]

I hope this doesn't upset you too much further, but I just don't think Nightastic is deserving of being the lightning rod in the storm of worry.

First, it isn't like there was a long tradition of great Summer Nightastic celebrations we cruelly had taken away from us. They tried it once last year, and it obviously wasn't successful enough or interesting enough to bring back.

Second, it was a cheap and anticlimactic promotion. I guess they didn't think "just" bringing back the Electrical Parade was marketable enough on its own, so they cooked up two last minute minor alterations and called it a celebration. Making the uproar even more ironic is that the only three elements it brought (Main Street Electrical Parade, different fireworks, and alternate Tower of Terror) were all widely criticized last year for not being as good as the regular versions they replaced.

I enjoy the unexpected changes and special celebrations just like anyone else, I just can't find any of the same righteous indignation so many others are coming up with for this particular event. I really don't need to be told I should be having an extra special time; not when I'm already at Walt Disney World. Besides, most of the time when I have to be told something is extra special, it usually isn't. In the case of Nightastic, I definitely think that was the case.

Well, first, the main reason people are saying it didn't come back came down to cost. The fireworks were far more expensive than Wishes. That's why they are usually only done at hard ticket parties (with the exception of NY and 4th of July). It really comes down to that. Disney certainly does not frown upon lame promotions. We get one every year. Do you need Disney to tell you make memories to actually make them? No. Do we need Disney to tell us its Summertime and thats a reason to celebrate. No, but I like it. Same as I like celebrating the holidays in the parks.

I think the main concern for a lot of us is that we are seeing the scaling down at the parks. Yes, a summer promotion may not offer much, but it offers that little "extra" that will make my visits in the summer of 2010 more memorable than the summer of 2011. If you only go to the resort once every year or so, you are right, it will make no difference, but to some of us who go more frequently, something so small and easy for the resort to do can rekindle that "magical" feeling. Is it the end of the world? No. Am I mad at Disney? Not really. Am I concerned that seasonal celebrations of any sort are being scaled back and maybe eventually cut out completely? Yep.

 

[wolf359]

I think i am still missing your point. How would CA families be different from FL families? You do realize there is a whole city here in Orlando besides Disney World, right? In fact, its one of the fastest growing cities in the country - and has been for years now. Why would you not think those families in Central Florida would just as prone to go to WDW with their families as in CA? In fact, from what I understand Anaheim is quite a drive from a "major" city in CA. WDW is 20 minutes up I-4 from downtown Orlando.

I think the biggest difference is just sheer numbers and population density. There are about as many people within a 90-minute drive from Disneyland as live in the entire state of Florida and Atlanta combined.

 

[menamechris]

First, it's not my point, LOL, it's just the facts of the situation and the history of the parks.

As to Orlando, what happens when you go 50 miles in either direction? And Disneyland is not very far from Los Angeles - unless you get stuck on the freeway at rush hour.

Disneyland is located in Southern California. California has more than twice the population of Florida, and a very large portion of that audience is within a few hours drive of Disneyland. Add to that the very different make-up of that population (not a lot of retirees who end up moving to Los Angeles to live out their golden years), and the differences in set-up, and you can see clearly why the situation is much different.

It's also the attitude. Disneyland is part of Southern California culture. It's "their" park. You don't get that view in Florida. Part of this is the price - it's a lot cheaper to get an AP at Disneyland for a family than in FL.

This isn't stuff I'm just assuming and making up as I go, this is just how it is. They are very different parks with very different clientele.

And, as the poster above me said - we've got MORE this summer than last summer, they just aren't using the stupid "NIGHTASTIC!" label on it. It's just a marketing tool.

I can't believe people are bellyaching about not being subjected to another meaningless, artificial marketing campaign, LOL.

Okay, okay - I have to ask. Do you live in Florida - specifically Central Florida?

 

[AEfx]

Okay, okay - I have to ask. Do you live in Florida - specifically Central Florida?

I have before, within in the last ten years. I don't now, but I am there quite often and have been following and studying the parks for over 25 years.

Your point?

 

[menamechris]

I think the biggest difference is just sheer numbers and population density. There are about as many people within a 90-minute drive from Disneyland as live in the entire state of Florida and Atlanta combined.

Well, given that you can get to most places in Florida from Central Florida in 2-2.5 hours - it sounds like six of one and half dozen of another...imo.

 

[wolf359]

Well, first, the main reason people are saying it didn't come back came down to cost. The fireworks were far more expensive than Wishes.

What was the cost difference?

Yes, a summer promotion may not offer much, but it offers that little "extra" that will make my visits in the summer of 2010 more memorable than the summer of 2011. If you only go to the resort once every year or so, you are right, it will make no difference, but to some of us who go more frequently, something so small and easy for the resort to do can rekindle that "magical" feeling. Is it the end of the world? No. Am I mad at Disney? Not really. Am I concerned that seasonal celebrations of any sort are being scaled back and maybe eventually cut out completely? Yep.

I see your point, especially about the worry of dwindling offerings, I just don't see how the new Star Tours, and the little updates to Pirates and Haunted Mansion aren't going to be more memorable (well, positively memorable at least) than last summer's offerings. Especially since one third of the "special" is sticking around. Well, more than that if you count the Sounds Like Summer Concerts at EPCOT, which I'm ashamed I never mentioned before. That DID contribute a lot to last year's trip, and it's coming back too.

Again, I think the biggest issue is that Disney isn't bringing back the name, but they're still offering just as many new or special seasonal offerings, they're just not putting the big bow on it.

 

[AEfx]

Well, given that you can get to most places in Florida from Central Florida in 2-2.5 hours - it sounds like six of one and half dozen of another...imo.

A state with half the population, many of which are snowbirds and retirees and no where NEAR the concentration of people around Los Angeles - more people live within a few 100 miles of Disneyland than in the entire state of FL.

 

[menamechris]

I have before, within in the last ten years. I don't now, but I am there quite often and have been following and studying the parks for over 25 years.

Your point?

I don't ask to be snarky or argumentative. But it seems you have agreed to some generalizations about Florida that simply are not true. And that's me speaking as a person who has lived in Orlando my whole life. The park history is just as rich, deep and historical as in California. You know that. Just because Walt wasn't with us on opening day doesn't make it any less important or impactful. And being that WDW is the largest single site employer in the country, I don't think its influence on our city and local culture can be challenged or denied.

 

[AEfx]

I don't ask to be snarky or argumentative. But it seems you have agreed to some generalizations about Florida that simply are not true. And that's me speaking as a person who has lived in Orlando my whole life. The park history is just as rich, deep and historical as in California. You know that. Just because Walt wasn't with us on opening day doesn't make it any less important or impactful. And being that WDW is the largest single site employer in the country, I don't think its influence on our city and local culture can be challenged or denied.

I guess I just don't understand what the heck you are talking about.

You are right, Orlando owes a lot to WDW. If WDW hadn't come to there, most of us probably wouldn't even know anything about nor ever been there, nor would the convention business have developed like it has, etc. Although, I think you'd get a strong argument that, yes, Disneyland has a little something different as Walt actually built the place (he never did more than fly over the plot of land that was to become WDW), but WDW also has something different in that it is a massive space where you can "live" in Disney for a time, unlike Disneyland where you can't walk out of the turnstyle without seeing Denny's across the road.

But that's completely beside the point here.

Here is the point about "Nightastic", that really has nothing to do with your feelings about WDW's impact on Florida :

1) Nightastic is a promotional campaign used to spend advertising dollars to attract people to make a trip they might have otherwise not made.

2) Disneyland has a very large contingent of locals who respond to such campaigns, as Disneyland is more like going to the movies to them than a vacation - something they do regularly, for a few hours or perhaps a whole day. Also, Southern California has limitless other destinations that people are going to/visiting, and Disneyland usually becomes a small part of that for them (a day or two). This is quite unlike WDW.

3) WDW is a theme park destination. People plan trips anywhere from 3 months to a year or more in advance. It also doesn't have a very large crowd of locals with AP's; whereas on a weekend night half or more of the guests in Disneyland have AP's, that number is far lower at WDW. The majority of guests are on Park Hoppers purchased as part of an overall vacation at WDW.

4) It makes little sense to run a temporary promotion when WDW is already over-run in the summer, and there are far less locals to attract. Someone isn't going to see something about Nighttastic and then book a $3000 trip for the next week, generally.

It's the same reason WDW doesn't do many of the other temporary things and overlays that Disneyland does. The clientele is made up mostly of vacationers, not "hey let's go to WDW today!" folk who decide at the spur of the moment to go check out some new offering.

It's really that simple.

 

[TP2000]

Why would you not think those families in Central Florida would just as prone to go to WDW with their families as in CA? In fact, from what I understand Anaheim is quite a drive from a "major" city in CA. WDW is 20 minutes up I-4 from downtown Orlando.

I think you'd be surprised at just how populated the suburban and semi-urban neighborhoods are around Disneyland. :lol:

Anaheim has a current population of 336,000 people. Orlando, Florida has a current population of 280,000 people, or 50,000 fewer than Anaheim.

If you take the population located in the small handful of Orange County suburbs within a tight 10 mile radius of Disneyland (Anaheim, Fullerton, City of Orange, Garden Grove, Santa Ana), it gets you exactly 1 Million people. All living within just that 10 mile radius of Disneyland, USA.

The total population of Orange County, California is almost entirely within a 30 minute drive of Disneyland. The current population of Orange County, California is 3.1 Million. The total population of the Southern California Megaplex living within a 90 minute drive of Disneyland, taking in Orange, Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernardino, Ventura and San Diego counties is 21 Million people, give or take a few. The entire state of California has a current population of 36 Million, about 15 Million more than currently live on the entire continent of Australia.

For years Walt thanked that smart fellow from Stanford for recommending Anaheim as the location for his little park. :lol:

Orlando, Florida has a total population of 280,000 people, as already mentioned. The total population of Greater Orlando Metro, taking in Orange, Osceola, Seminole and Lake counties is 2.7 Million people, or about 400,000 fewer than Orange County, California alone. If you throw in Tampa Bay Metro Area just for fun, it gets you an extra 2.7 Million people, for a total of 5.4 Million, or about one fourth the number of folks living in SoCal.

Another interesting demographic is the median family incomes between the two metro areas;

Median Family Income
Orange County, California - $84,000
Orange County, Florida - $47,000

So, yeah, there's a reason that Disneyland wants the "locals" to keep coming back. But there's still enough people living in Florida that you would think they would want to keep them coming back fairly regularly. Plus, that type of freshening and seasonal offerings makes for a better overall theme park. :animwink:

.

 

[menamechris]

So, yeah, there's a reason that Disneyland wants the "locals" to keep coming back. But there's still enough people living in Florida that you would think they would want to keep them coming back fairly regularly. Plus, that type of freshening and seasonal offerings makes for a better overall theme park. :animwink:

.

I think this is my point in a nutshell.

I am not in any way denying that DL counts on locals. My point I have (apparently badly) been trying to make is that WDW should do the same thing. Regardless of whether there thousands more "locals" in CA, that doesn't take away that there are still millions of people in FL who would love to throw their money more often at WDW if given a reason to. I don't know how that can be argued. And also, the apparent stereotype of Orlando being what is almost being described as a rural area or farm town without Disney - that's also crazy. Orlando may not be as concentrated or populous as CA, but that really shouldn't be some sort of excuse for WDW to remain stagnant. WDW should be very interested in appealing to repeat guests and regular visitors just as much as DL. With a resort of that enormity, they should be concentrating on how to get EVERYONE'S money. In fact, thats a basic lesson in Traditions.

As far as Nightastic - I understand. No one understands the "marketing machine" of WDW like those of us who are bombarded with it everyday. It is everywhere in Central Florida - there's no escaping it. It fact, it can even become tiresome. And not every marketing blitz is going to work for every guest. But simply put - it was a bit of fun for those of us who like new things at the resort. And it IS as simple as that...

 

[COProgressFan]

These discussions about different management philosophies of DL and WDW have come up before and they will come up again. As you might imagine, this is not just about Nightastic, because while that was a fun promo with a few added extras last summer, it certainly was not anything ground breaking (that award goes up I-4 to IOA). It's also not about the differences between SoCal and FL. There may be major demographic differences, but the bottom line is, for ALL VISITORS, whether they are locals, folks who drove in from out of state for a weekend, planned a 2 week elaborate holiday from UK, or whatever, they all want to get the most entertainment for their money.

The issue surrounds constant justifications for WDW offering less, while their west coast counterpart keeps trying to add more (at least since the mid 2000s or so) to keep guests happy and coming back. Again, this doesn't matter whether you are a local or not. It doesn't matter whether you come every month or every five years.

I just don't see why so many so folks feel the need to justify an enormously profitable, multibillion dollar multinational corporation giving its customers less product for more money.

 

[ChrisM]

Another interesting demographic is the median family incomes between the two metro areas;

Median Family Income
Orange County, California - $84,000
Orange County, Florida - $47,000

Those numbers aren't adjusted for the substantial cost of living difference between the two areas.

Adjusting for cost of living brings California down to ~$60,000. Still a sizeable different, but not nearly what it looks like at face value.

 

[misterID]

Now this is just being nit-picky. Yes, there is a building called Team Disney Orlando, and executives for the resort work there and various other locations across property (and some off property). Top execs actually work at the old animation building at the Studios.

Team Disney Orlando, or TDO, refers to the executive leadership of the Walt Disney Resort. So yes, Meg Crofton is part of TDO, as is Erin Wallace, or Phil Holmes, etc. Thinking its just about one specific building and the group of folks that work in said building is just silly.

Yes. Said absolutely perfectly.

And you can't count Florida residents as those in orange county, you have to include: Volusia, Broward, Dade, Manatee, Sarasota, Osceola, Brevard, Pasco, Brevard, Seminole, Marion, Pinellas, Hills Borough, Duval, etc, etc, etc.... Orange County Florida is actually pretty small.

WDW has a huge demographic of residents to appeal to, and very affluent communities, again, that used to be big business to WDW. When UNI opened Halloween Horror Nights it was huge. I've always been shocked The World never really responded to that.

 

[RSoxNo1]

menamechris - AEfx is correct. Disneyland is not the resort destination that Walt Disney World is. Locals absolutely visit both areas, but the attendance at Disneyland is based more on locals than Walt Disney World is.

The way the parks are run dictates this. Consider the usage of Fastpass at the two resorts. It's used far more in Disney World than Disneyland. The reasons behind this are:
1. Space
2. Familiarity with the system

The Disneyland locals are more familiar with the Fastpass system as frequent visitors to the parks. Compartively, there are less visitors to Disney World that are familiar with the system so it's not used as effeciently by the guests. This Disney World scenario is more desireable.

You can also look at the seasonal overlays in Disneyland - it's a big selling point for the younger demographic that makes up the California local population. Comparitively, the seasonal offerings in Disney World cater to an older demographic (Food and Wine and Flower and Garden) or the once every few year visitors (Halloween and Christmas Parties).