New News and Rumors

[Poncho1973]

Actually... it's still expected to be relatively stable. I've talked to SEVERAL of the PE's about this and even if it were a problem (which it's not at all expected to be SHOULD they ever drain it) shoring it up wouldn't actually be that difficult.

That being said... an old "cracker" (a self-imposed term) I know insists that without something being in the lagoon after an extended period of time it will eventually POP out of the earth. Not explode... just rise up. I don't have a clue if that's realistic (not being structural in my expertise) but sometimes I've found that simple older guys with "real world" experience tend to know more about some things than "experts".

Who knows?

 

[niteobsrvr]

has it occurred to anyone that the 20,000 leagues lagoon has been drained at least once since the rides closure in or around 1995? Afterall, most of the prop coral and ride track from the lagoon has been removed. That certainly wasn't done with all the water still in there.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by Poncho1973
Actually... it's still expected to be relatively stable. I've talked to SEVERAL of the PE's about this and even if it were a problem (which it's not at all expected to be SHOULD they ever drain it) shoring it up wouldn't actually be that difficult.

That being said... an old "cracker" (a self-imposed term) I know insists that without something being in the lagoon after an extended period of time it will eventually POP out of the earth. Not explode... just rise up. I don't have a clue if that's realistic (not being structural in my expertise) but sometimes I've found that simple older guys with "real world" experience tend to know more about some things than "experts".

Who knows?

The 20K lagoon could not "POP out of the earth" because it's not in the earth. There is nothing out of which it could "just rise up." Remember, the lagoon is on the second story above the first floor of the Magic Kingdom.

 

[magicjay1989]

I think that if the lagoon had a problem with the saftey of guest and cast members that they would have that thing out of there by now.

 

[niteobsrvr]

Originally posted by Woody13
The 20K lagoon could not "POP out of the earth" because it's not in the earth. There is nothing out of which it could "just rise up." Remember, the lagoon is on the second story above the first floor of the Magic Kingdom.

If you read back a few post from me, you will see that the lagoon is not above the first floor or utilidors. Contrary to popular belief the basement doesn't extend beneath every square foot of the Magic Kingdom. There are many places in the park that are not 2nd stories to the tunnel system or even directly connected to it for that matter.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by niteobsrvr
If you read back a few post from me, you will see that the lagoon is not above the first floor or utilidors. Contrary to popular belief the basement doesn't extend beneath every square foot of the Magic Kingdom. There are many places in the park that are not 2nd stories to the tunnel system or even directly connected to it for that matter.

Oh, but the lagoon is above the first floor. Please name a higher "ground level" spot in the MK than the lagoon if you please. The utilidors main entrance is just a few feet from the lagoon. Also, it is very obvious where the first and second stories of the MK begin and end. I (like most other people) know when I am walking uphill and downhill! :lol:

 

[niteobsrvr]

Originally posted by Woody13
Oh, but the lagoon is above the first floor. Please name a higher "ground level" spot in the MK than the lagoon if you please. The utilidors main entrance is just a few feet from the lagoon. Also, it is very obvious where the first and second stories of the MK begin and end. I (like most other people) know when I am walking uphill and downhill! :lol:

The utilidor entrance is more than just a few feet form the lagoon. While the area may visibly appear higher, you have to take into consideration that the lagoon must be 15 feet deep at least without even taking into consideration the concrete forming it. Finally, I am sure the old ride track was attached to some sort of pilings that extend even further downward. There is nothing under the lagoon other than the engineered structure that forms it.

 

[Mikejakester]

I agree with niteobsrvr... as an engineer student putting a lagoon over a tunnel would not be a very smart thing to do. I mean it can be done, but during the long run it would put an enourmous stress on the structure below, and every time they would drain the lagoon there would be problems due to weigh changes on the ground. Also it would complicate things for replacing the ride in the future.

I think Disney engineers would have tried to avoid this. (at least I would have)

I think there are some extra reasons why this particular ride is still there... I definatly think the location of the structure is a fact. But I think this goes deeper than just a ride near some underground tunnel.

And I have a wierd feeling it might be $$$$$$. I mean think about it. There is a huge area that extends to the back beyond our eyes thats 20 feet deep with underground tunnels next to it, and Some kind of aquaduct to pumps water to the rest of the lakes at magic kindom.

So filling that hole back up, making the land stable (if it ever was unstable) do what ever you need to do with the tunnels( if there was really anything wrong with them) and fix the water system so that it does not effect the other lakes of the park. I bet would cost disney a whole lot of money. And yet there hasen't been anything built yet.

So maybe Disney is just waiting for funds and a better desing for that area.

I think this could be one of the biggest building projects MK could actually go thru since the actually construction of the park...


Then again
this is just an opinion...

 

[niteobsrvr]

Originally posted by Mikejakester
I agree with niteobsrvr... as an engineer student putting a lagoon over a tunnel would not be a very smart thing to do. I mean it can be done, but during the long run it would put an enourmous stress on the structure below, and every time they would drain the lagoon there would be problems due to weigh changes on the ground. Also it would complicate things for replacing the ride in the future.

I think Disney engineers would have tried to avoid this. (at least I would have)

I think there are some extra reasons why this particular ride is still there... I definatly think the location of the structure is a fact. But I think this goes deeper than just a ride near some underground tunnel.

And I have a wierd feeling it might be $$$$$$. I mean think about it. There is a huge area that extends to the back beyond our eyes thats 20 feet deep with underground tunnels next to it, and Some kind of aquaduct to pumps water to the rest of the lakes at magic kindom.

So filling that hole back up, making the land stable (if it ever was unstable) do what ever you need to do with the tunnels( if there was really anything wrong with them) and fix the water system so that it does not effect the other lakes of the park. I bet would cost disney a whole lot of money. And yet there hasen't been anything built yet.

Thanks for seeing what I was trying to point out Mikejakester. Removing the lagoon and show building would definitely leave ahuge hole to fill. THat is if it isnt filled with a building to house a ride or show. Also the demolition of the lake without a project to fill the spot, or at least a plan to make the area aesthetically pleasing, makes little sense. It my only be a gap in the show right now but it doesnt look too bad. Removal of the area means you can see past the magic and into the rear service roads, etc. Kind of kills the fairytale/fantasy mood if you see diesel belching busses/trucks going by every couple of minutes.

Money and plans, I am sure, are the number one factor it has been left for so long.

 

[Poncho1973]

Originally posted by Woody13
The 20K lagoon could not "POP out of the earth" because it's not in the earth. There is nothing out of which it could "just rise up." Remember, the lagoon is on the second story above the first floor of the Magic Kingdom.

This has been covered pretty well...

The bottom of the lagoon is INDEED in the earth. It does not rest upon anything other than the earth below it. It doesn't sit on the utilidor... nor on top of any structure.

I also want to add... it's entirely surrounded by earth (meaning it doesn't touch the utilidor or anything else on at least 3 sides and only touches it's own building on the other side)... so even though it the isn't on the "original" grade... it's a sort of "new normal" type situation. It sits on earth, it's surrounded by earth and IF THAT SORT OF THING HAPPENS BUT SINCE I'M NOT A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD, it could theoretically "pop out" of said earth.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by niteobsrvr
The utilidor entrance is more than just a few feet form the lagoon. While the area may visibly appear higher, you have to take into consideration that the lagoon must be 15 feet deep at least without even taking into consideration the concrete forming it. Finally, I am sure the old ride track was attached to some sort of pilings that extend even further downward. There is nothing under the lagoon other than the engineered structure that forms it.

Both IASM and the old 20K attractions have (had) entrances at the same level (i.e. second story). If you enter IASM you walk down two ramps in a switchback fashion. How many feet would you estimate that those ramps descend from the entrance to the loading platform of IASM? I think you will agree with me that it is more than 10 feet (i.e. "one story"). Is the attraction IASM dug into a hole in the ground or is it at ground level? I think here too (unless you have some new information) you'll have to agree that IASM is at ground level. Also, how did you arrive at the conclusion that the depth of 20k "...must be 15 feet deep at least..."? Having had the benefit of riding the attraction, I can assure you that the water depth was more along the lines of a total of 6 feet at its deepest. Therefore, I submit that the attraction known as IASM is at ground level and that the attraction formally known as 20K is above ground level. Furthermore, I assert that the concrete basin that forms the 20K lagoon is not now, nor has it ever been, implanted in the ground (as are many swimming pools). In conclusion I must inform you that I am cursed with a rather keen sense of the obvious. :animwink:

 

[BalooChicago]

Originally posted by Poncho1973
Actually... it's still expected to be relatively stable. I've talked to SEVERAL of the PE's about this and even if it were a problem (which it's not at all expected to be SHOULD they ever drain it) shoring it up wouldn't actually be that difficult.

Thank you! As an Architect, I can tell you that in construction just about anything is possible, and the solutions are often a lot simpler than most would assume. We deal with situations not unlike 20,000 leagues all the time. What type of maintenance would you assume concrete would need? How often do you think foundation systems receive this type of maintenance? Chicago has some of the worlds tallest buildings and is more or less a swamp, we deal with situations were highrise buildings are built within inches of other buildings. Shoring up the lagoon to remove it would be easy. One imagines a solution where you could fill it with gravel to remove the walls without collapse as well. If there were any risk of collapse it would be gone already, imagine the liability, both legally and operationally if such a threat did exist, it would be gone before you could say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.

 

[niteobsrvr]

Originally posted by Woody13
Both IASM and the old 20K attractions have (had) entrances at the same level (i.e. second story). If you enter IASM you walk down two ramps in a switchback fashion. How many feet would you estimate that those ramps descend from the entrance to the loading platform of IASM? I think you will agree with me that it is more than 10 feet (i.e. "one story"). Is the attraction IASM dug into a hole in the ground or is it at ground level? I think here too (unless you have some new information) you'll have to agree that IASM is at ground level.

The entire ride building is about 3 stories tall. The attraction therefore effectively sits at ground level. The real ground level and not the atrificial elevation created byt the utilidor system. When you enter the ride you are entering at approximately third story level. You drop down 12 to 15 feet or maybe a little more to the loading platform. Like other parts of the park, Its IASW does not have utilidors running directly below it. Just like 20,000 leagues it sits next to the Utilidor system. Take a look at the picture. The large pale building at about 3 o'clock is IASW.

http://www.disneypix.com/2000ft/Roll4/Roll04_004.htm

Also, how did you arrive at the conclusion that the depth of 20k "...must be 15 feet deep at least..."? Having had the benefit of riding the attraction, I can assure you that the water depth was more along the lines of a total of 6 feet at its deepest.

http://www.disneypix.com/MagicKingdom/Fantasyland/20KRehab/20KRehab03.htm

http://www.disneypix.com/MagicKingdom/Fantasyland/20KRehab/20KRehab05.htm

If you take a look at those pictures, you will see grown men whom we will assume to be average height or approximately 6 foot. I wouls say the ride track comes in about a foot or so over their heads, maybe more depending on where they are standing. So now we are at 7 feet. Now add a few feet of water (2 to 3 at least) over the track to cover it up like the watermarks in this picture show.

http://www.disneypix.com/MagicKingdom/Fantasyland/20KRehab/20KRehab02.htm

But we arent done yet, if you look at the bottom of the lagoon, you will also see that the themeing adds some depth because it is actually built up layers from the bottom of the structure and not simply sitting on the bowl of the lagoon itself. Looking at the picture, I make the assumtion that the depth of the scenery is 1 to 2 feet depending on where you are looking. So we're now at 10 to 12 feet of total depth. I am also banking on the fact that my assumptions are on the low side (because the only point of reference we have is a man who's heigth is assumed to be 6 feet) and I have missed a couple of feet here and there.

Therefore, I submit that the attraction known as IASM is at ground level and that the attraction formally known as 20K is above ground level. Furthermore, I assert that the concrete basin that forms the 20K lagoon is not now, nor has it ever been, implanted in the ground (as are many swimming pools).

I never said it was "in the ground". Without knowing the structure of the lagoon walls I could draw a number of conclusions. The one I find most likely is that the entire lagoon is an engineered concrete structure surrounded by an earthen berm. It actually does sit above true ground level as you state but there is nothing below it like lockerrooms, hallways, etc.

In conclusion I must inform you that I am cursed with a rather keen sense of the obvious. :animwink:

Its a matter of perspective. The Magic Kingdom is all about Fantasy. What appears to be from inside the park is not as obvious as one might think. Only when you see it from the otherside or below, do you get a true sense of the creative trickery that the Imagineers used to make it all believable.

 

[space42]

Good analysis niteobsrvr..

If you notice in the MK, all of the water based attractions sit at ground level. IASM, Jungle Cruise, Pirates, 20K Leagues, Splash Mountain... None of these attractions sit on top of the utilidor system. It is interesting how each one of these attractions deal with getting you down to ground level and back again. Most people do not even realize what is happening.


It is good news to hear rumors that something may be coming to the lagoon area. 20K Leagues Under the Sea was a big budget, spare no expense, E-Ticket attraction for its day. I would expect nothing less for its replacement... $.02