New Disneyland Parking Garage and Transportation Hub

[Ismael Flores]

Not with the caliber of retail and dining options they ended up with. What made them think hoards of tourists were going to drop what they were doing at DLR to venture into that place to shop and eat at the same middle-of-the-road chains they had back home? Especially without a notable retail anchor. The whole plan was delusional madness.

Even if they didn't get tourist buses not the area, ifbtyey had signed deals with the hotels that would have been enough to keep the mall busy no matter the mix of tenants. The resort area lacks eateries and shops that people from the conventions and hotels can go. Even the new Savon is always packed now because it added a store that sells lunches and other things at a reasonable price compared to the 7 eleven.
The same can be said for the condos and rentals tha were proposed for the roofs of the mall structures. The developers should have established those leases at the time the mall was being developed.
The mall just didn't have a proper entry way from the main tourist corridor. I bet that 9 out of 10 guests have no idea a mall exist behind Roys, bubba Gump, and the other eateries facing Katella that are always busy.
If they can get the new developer of the new hotel that will replace the old aging anaheim hotel to connect that hotel via a elevated walkway the mall will definitely start seeing foot traffic, along with the other two hotels proposed.

The AGW owners should also give tenants and incentive for a low rent for the first year with a promise that they can break a lease of the mall does not deliver. Once it is established then they can renegotiate. AGW should also try and distinguish themselves from DTD by adding more entertainment venues compared to stores since Disney doesn't seem to want those on their property.

 

[TP2000]

It's not just a "druggy motel". That's an oversimplification of layers of social problems. Historically, the area to the East and South of the CM lot has had many problems, including drug and gang activity. But the Arena Motel and the surrounding apartments (which have improved) were also home to many working people and families at the bottom of the food chain. I have known CMs who lived at the Arena and other low-end properties like it BECAUSE THEY HAD NOWHERE ELSE TO GO! One was a young transgender man who had been disowned by his family. He and a roommate from Custodial lived in one of those rooms for several months before saving up and moving on to better housing. This is because Disney pays less than a living wage, even for many union workers.

Are there drugs and prostitution and other criminal activity taking place in low-end properties like this? Of course. But they are a symptom of broader problems. Displacing all those people without addressing the underlying problems is irresponsible for the community. This is not merely a matter of "Leftist protest groups" chiming in. The Arena Motel is a blight. But it's a symptom, not the cause. Reforming areas like this is not simply a matter of bulldozing the "Roach Motel". You can't just pave over these problems because they are connected to the very fabric of the community.

I object to your oversimplification. These are human beings. No matter how many bad choices, unfortunate circumstances, or outright criminal behavior, they are people. I'm not excusing or defending criminal activity. But you can't paint these residents with such a broad brush.

If the phrase "druggy motel" offends you or those that live there, we can call it a Fabulous Living Facility instead.

And I'm sure that this Fabulous Living Facility has all the range of human drama playing out, just as any average condo complex in upper-middle class Irvine would, from human triumph to tragic heartbreak and everything in between. And in this particular Fabulous Living Facility, also a lot of drugs. And some prostitution. Also bedbugs and roaches, according to the Yelp reviews. https://www.yelp.com/biz/arena-inn-and-suites-anaheim

But that doesn't change the fact that the Fabulous Living Facility is not attractive, scares tourists and families with children, takes up a huge chunk of police resources, and makes the entire Katella entrance corridor into the Resort District look very downscale, ratty, and rather sad. If they can turn this high-profile strip of land into a bright new Hampton Inn, that would be a huge improvement for the Resort District, the City of Anaheim, and the taxpaying businesses that surround this property.

When the bulldozers begin to move in, I fully expect to read in the Register about the human drama playing out among the folks living in the Fabulous Living Facility as eviction day nears. And it will be messy PR for all involved, and I expect the Social Justice crew to drag Disney into it any way they can to get more PR for themselves.

Which is why I mentioned it.

 

[TP2000]

Isn't Google a Godsend?!?

A quick Google search turned up this blog entry on the Fabulous Living Facility on Katella we are discussing.
http://freetv-airconditioned.blogspot.com/2007/03/howard-johnsons-caravan-inn-then-and.html

It used to be called the Caravan Inn and was a Howard Johnson's property in the 1960's and early 1970's.

From the comments on the blog linked above from the nephew of the guy who owned it in 1965-73, and people who lived there in the late 1970's into the 1980's, in the mid 1970's it, um, transitioned into long-term residents, the drug trade and prostitution.

Even more interesting is that there used to be an ice rink next door in the 1960's, called Glacier Falls Ice Rink. Who knew?!?

 

[Darkbeer1]

It's great to see you here Darkbeer, missed seeing you around. Always followed your writing and your smugmug photos.

You mentioned new toy story drop off, if I understood correctly it would be off harbor near the western area of the bridge. I'm just curious as to why they would consider that? Seems like the most logical thing would be to have toy story buses go north on clementine and into new transpiration hub especially since we are talking of quite a huge amount of buses.

Or

When referíng to Toy Story drop off is this just for cast members coming from that lot?

First off, nice to see you here too Ismael.

If you look at the Expansion Map, the "new" transportation Hub isn't that big, so Disney decided they would convert the current Taxi area to accept the Toy Story Buses, as they are the large 40 foot long versions.

The current Driveway at Harbor and Disney Way has to remain for access for other reasons, including emergency vehicle access and company vehicles, plus the re-routing of cars from Mickey & Friends to Toy Story.

But the new design does a couple of things, it eliminates two driveways on Harbor (The current Taxi ones), and it opens up the north side of DCA for possible expansion when the Eastern Gateway project is completed.

As I understand it, it will only be Toy Story Route buses and special ADA shuttles that will run from Manchester to Harbor that will be allowed to enter the driveway and drop off area. All other transportation options will be forced to Manchester.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Speaking of land anyone know who owns the large empty piece of land that shows on google map on harbor across from Candy Cane Inn?
It's a pretty good size piece of land and would be useless for Disney since it doesn't connect to any other large property

I mentioned it earlier in this thread, it is owned by a Holding Company. It was originally bought and torn down as part of the Anaheim GardenWalk/Pointe Anaheim project, but they couldn't get an adjoining property, so it sits there, and due to its small size is not really practical to build on without buying other land.

Now, if Wincome can overcome its issues with the UNITE-HERE Union, and find a way to also buy the Castle Inn and the empty lot, they will be in good shape. But it isn't really usable in its current form.

 

[Darkbeer1]

I wonder if they have considered just turning the ground oversize parking south of the Mickey and Friends into another structure. Seams like that would be the perfect location to build a centralized parking garage structure for Castmembers on the western side and then once that is built also get going with the one in Ball road for the eastern side

The problem is that the way the Mickey & Friends Structure was built, the ground level is much higher than the other levels, and designed for Oversized (tall) vehicles like buses to enter the structure, but only to be sent south to the "Pinocchio" open lot.

It is also used for the Tram Staging area and not practical to convert.

I think the bigger questions is how much parking will be converted. They can convert the entire Simba Lot into a structure, but watching the maximum height to not overwhelm the Paradise Pier and Disneyland Hotel Towers.

Due to the current Bakery Building on the north side of Mickey and Friends limits the size of a structure on the other section of the ground level lot, so also not practical.

That leaves the current Downtown Disney Parking Lot, and some of the ground level parking for the Disneyland Hotel, which is mainly spoken for due to the 4th Hotel. Also there are limits to the Hotels height due to the "Disney Zone" height restrictions. So you are looking at underground parking for the Hotel guests, and the transfer of all DtD parking to Simba. But then, what to do with the current cars that need parking if you close Simba for expansion???

It looks like the Harbor and Ball Lot is where a new parking structure will be built, designed for CM's to use.

And then looking at what to do with the Toy Story Lot and adjoining Katella CM lot. This area also has the potential for parking structures, or even multiple ones that can be used by guests and CM's, depending on the needs of the parks and expected attendance.

But a lot of it will be juggling the spaces, closing down one area to increase capacity and finding a place to shift the cars until the project is complete, and then starting a second expansion, and so on...

Only time will tell, but with land values increasing in the area, it will be a harder puzzle to figure out.

 

[TP2000]

Darkbeer, what you've laid out there above is like a horrible game of Jenga.

Disneyland management has ignored their parking problem for a decade, and now they are in a world of hurt. To get any of the structures built they have to close the big surface lots that have 1,500+ spaces currently. But they can't spare to lose 1,500 spaces for any length of time. And once they get all the new structures open by 2021, the Resort will have dramatically higher attendance with the new hotel, Star Wars Land, and Marvel expansion all open or opening.

What a mess. It's a mess that TDA has made for themselves over the last decade, especially the revolving door of Presidents that place has. Ouimet (a great one), Grier (a real nothing), Kalogridis (a good one), Colglazier (a stuffed shirt if you ask me).

It's going to get very messy in the next few years before it gets better. I imagine the employees will be parking at Angel Stadium a whole lot in 2017 and 2018. That's if the Angels continue to want to play along.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Darkbeer, what you've laid out there above is like a horrible game of Jenga.

Disneyland management has ignored their parking problem for a decade, and now they are in a world of hurt. To get any of the structures built they have to close the big surface lots that have 1,500+ spaces currently. But they can't spare to lose 1,500 spaces for any length of time. And once they get all the new structures open by 2021, the Resort will have dramatically higher attendance with the new hotel, Star Wars Land, and Marvel expansion all open or opening.

What a mess. It's a mess that TDA has made for themselves over the last decade, especially the revolving door of Presidents that place has. Ouimet (a great one), Grier (a real nothing), Kalogridis (a good one), Colglazier (a stuffed shirt if you ask me).

It's going to get very messy in the next few years before it gets better. I imagine the employees will be parking at Angel Stadium a whole lot in 2017 and 2018. That's if the Angels continue to want to play along.

Yes, it is that, and maybe more....

Let's see, AGW has extra spaces available currently, but for how long?

The city actually owns Angel Stadium, and rents it out, and has some control over the parking, same as the Honda Center and even the ARTIC lot. So there are some options, but then they do also have to plan for the sporting events, concerts, entertainment (like Disney on Ice and the Harlem Globetrotters) events.

The Convention Center has lost spaces due to the expansion north of the Hilton, so the city will need to "borrow" some on busy days.

So what to do??? Like you said, Jenga here we come...

If Disney can get the Pumbaa Structure started, they do have some "slack" until Star Wars Land opens. But that has become a bigger can of worms than anybody expected due to the political games being done behind the scenes in regards to the Anaheim City Council in general. (I wish I could quote someone from the "11".... something about getting an one-up on the big boy. but a lot cruder)

And it starts with the need for MORE parking for the Construction crews and equipment for both the Eastern Gateway and Marvel Land/TOT projects. And then we have Christmas Season coming, which will create the busiest (based on history) time in late December and January, needing parking for the guests and CM's (and other outside employees in the area)

There are some large businesses in the Disneyland area that would be willing to rent out their employee parking lot on weekends, but at what cost, and the need for shuttles, and limited times they are available....

So what does Disney do? Offer higher incentives for Carpooling and using public transit to CM's/employees?

Be forced to limit attendance due to parking issues? (I doubt it will happen, but it is a possibility). But you still might have a lot of locals just ed off at the parking hassles, and waits to enter a lot and find a space, and just give up and not visit....

Heck, let's look at one option... Disney getting a month to month lease on the empty lot south of the Castle Inn. The following would have to happen, a permit to build it, an environmental impact report, the build of the lot, which based on current California law requires special drainage systems to prevent run off of oils and other vehicle fluids. Then pave the lot, getting lighting and a security facility, and what do they get, maybe a couple of hundred spaces, if that many......

It is a VERY large can of worms, and should be fun to watch the fishing...

 

[NobodyElse]

Darkbeer, what you've laid out there above is like a horrible game of Jenga.

Call me old, but I always picture one of these as an analogy for issues like this:

 

[Darkbeer1]

Do you know for certain that they are making a good profit?

Yes, I can tell you that all six restaurants have shared their profit sheets with other potential tenants and all make a good profit.

Fire+ICE is holding its own, but not make as much as the "Katella" Restaurants.

And also the 24 Hour Fitness is happy, it tends to get some out of town visitors, but not as many as expected, and is getting more locals and employees (aka CM's) that work nearby to make up the difference, as compared to what the original percentages were going to be.

Bowlmor is also one of those who is OK, and hoping for the HOB to help things.

Some of the "inner" stores have gotten breaks on its rent, and while not happy, can see a better tomorrow.

Is AGW struggling as a total complex?, yes. But then the Katella Properties are the exception and have no plans to go anywhere.

I know some folks aren't fan of chains, but for many "Tourists" or also a convention sponsor trying to book a venue that is easy to deal with and well recognized by many, it is a perfect fit.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I know some folks aren't fan of chains, but for many "Tourists" or also a convention sponsor trying to book a venue that is easy to deal with and well recognized by many, it is a perfect fit.

I don't disagree with that, but surely you see that if there were compelling local shops and eateries in there + a notable anchor tenant and maybe an attraction or two (HOB will fix this) traffic wouldn't be as much of an issue. It could still be touristy, ie: Faneuil Hall, Pike Place Market, Navy Pier, etc, but as it stands now there's no strong reason for anyone to go there, not even locals.

 

[Darkbeer1]

I am a regular at Roy's (but also go to Newport Beach) and PF Chang's, and an occasional Cheesecake Factory and Fire+ICE.

Amazing that it was the LOCAL eateries that closed down at AGW. The problem with local places is making a name, and it is hard in a big city like Anaheim and the surrounding area.

I can mention the Anaheim White House and Carolina's as good local places making a good profit, but most local places are hanging on, or too small to attract many "tourists".

Heck, look at what is offered at DTD, we have the Patina Group, which is a large international restaurant chain.

https://www.patinagroup.com/restaurants

Then Starbucks, Wetzel's Pretzels, Haagen-Dazs, Jamba Juice, Earl of Sandwich. ESPN Zone is a leftover from a chain Disney tried to start, and is treated the same as all the other Mary Niven run restaurants on property (basically a Disney Chain, including shared items at places like Napa Rose and Steakhouse 55).

Heck, look at the Outlets at Orange list of restaurants, almost all chains, same with the restaurants around the Platinum Triangle, Angel Stadium and the Honda Center.

So yes, AGW and DtD have the issue in common in not attracting many locals for dining. But if you knew how many "single name" restaurants are actually chains, you would be surprised. I was in Senior manager of regional chain in the west that had many locations in/around the LA/Santa Monica area. While we did break them down into groups, like Fine Dine, Omelet Parlors, Saloons (bar/restaurants), and then merchandise and a large prop department (used for the restaurants, but also for rent for the movie/TV industry). All had different names, but menus and recipe's were shared, we got discount deals on main items purchased and did quite well for a long time until the original owners decided to retire and split up the chain.

 

[Darkbeer1]

I forgot Rainforest Café, part of the large Laundry's Group of restaurants.

http://www.landrysinc.com/#/page/1

And La Brea Bakery, another chain.

https://www.labreabakery.com/locations

I am looking forward to Porto's Bakery coming to Buena Park near Knott's. Yes, it is a small chain.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/porto-704660-buena-park.html

And still a big fan of Mrs. Knott's Chicken Dinner Restaurant, even though it is now owned and operated by Cedar Fair.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

The problem with local places is making a name, and it is hard in a big city like Anaheim and the surrounding area.

When Westfield expanded San Francisco Centre about a decade ago they made a point of leasing to mostly (I'd say it's about 90%) local eateries in their large subterranean food court. If you want McDonald's, California Pizza Kitchen, or Starbucks you'll have to go elsewhere either in another section of the mall or outside. Note that SF Centre is directly across the street from the Powell Street Cable Car terminus and has both Bloomingdale's and Nordstrom as anchors.

Likewise with San Francisco's 100+ year-old Ferry Building in the Financial District, which was practically crumbling apart when the Port of San Francisco gave it a magnificent overhaul. The marketplace floor is constantly teeming with both locals and tourists enjoying locally sourced produce, an oyster bar, wines, local coffee vendors, gourmet burgers and a lively weekend farmer's market. No Bubba Gumps here.

It's unfortunate that the city didn't push the AGW developers to bring a more authentic shopping and dining experience to Anaheim. It would have been a nice counterpoint to the corporate commercialism of DTD and the rest of DLR.

Then Starbucks, Wetzel's Pretzels, Haagen-Dazs, Jamba Juice, Earl of Sandwich. ESPN Zone is a leftover from a chain Disney tried to start, and is treated the same as all the other Mary Niven run restaurants on property (basically a Disney Chain, including shared items at places like Napa Rose and Steakhouse 55.

Yes, but Disney can get away with it because the parks and hotels act as anchors at each end of the property. DTD would probably as deserted as AGW if it weren't for the parks.

But if you knew how many "single name" restaurants are actually chains, you would be surprised.

Chains aren't the issue. The issue is that AGW is leasing to national chains that aren't compelling or special enough to warrant a visit.

 

[TP2000]

Meanwhile, Anaheim has had great success with their Packing House food hall a mile or two north of Disneyland. Chock full of local and one-off dining options.

I agree that if GardenWalk could get out of its cheesy, corporate chain mold circa 1997 that the mall might stand a chance. I'm not saying chains shouldn't have a place there, as Darkbeer has so nicely summed up how and why the restaurant chains on Katella do well. (And I have a habit of eating at that McCormick's occasionally).

But obviously the GardenWalk concept has failed, in a spectacular way. Sticking to its corporate chain business model won't save it. They've got to rethink the whole thing. It would help if they remodeled it to make it more attractive. It's not a pretty or glamorous place to be, regardless of who the tenants are.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Let's see, plenty of chains have invaded San Francisco, including the main tourist area, such as Fisherman's Wharf..

Start with Landry's...

Bubba Gump on Pier 39

Rainforest Café on Jefferson

McCormick's on North Point Street

Chart House (IMHO, Good Food) at the Embarcadero.

Also the Morton's on Post Street.

Also nearby, Ruth's Chris, PF Chang's, Houston's (called Hillstone in SF), California Pizza Kitchen, In-n-Out Burger, Olive Garden, Chipolete, Cheesecake Factory, Boudin's, Roy;s, Smashburger, Starbucks, Hard Rock Café, Joe's Crab Shack, Nathan's Hot Dogs (aka Coney Island), Drayer's Grand and more.

Gee, all the same restaurant chains as the ones on Katella at AGW and more...

And if you look at how "tourists" rave about the chains, especially things like The Cheesecake Factory and the Aussies/NZ folks, you can understand why they end up in "Tourist" locations, as many folks don't want to "gamble" on something they might not like.

https://darkbeer.smugmug.com/Travel/San-Francisco-and-Bay-Area/

 

[Darkbeer1]

As for the Westfield San Francisco Centre restaurants, I am going over the list and seeing a lot of chains.


https://www.westfield.com/sanfrancisco/dining

Ajisen Ramen - one in Irvine and a few others in the Southland.

http://www.ajisencalifornia.com/locations/

Andale' Mexican, local chain including airport locations.

http://andalemexican.com/

Auntie Anne's Pretzels - Big Chain

Beard Papa's - International Chain

Bristol Farms - owned by Albertsons (aka Safeway/VONS, etc...) VERY large chain

Buckhorn Grill - Bay Area Chain

Café Bellini - Small local chain

Charley's Grilled Subs - Large chain found in many malls

Chipolte - Large Chain

Ghiradella - Found at DCA

Godiva - Another Chain

Haggen-Dazs - Another Chain (DtD is one location)

Jamba Juice - Another DtD tenant

Mrs. Field's - was at AGW

Nordstrom Cafe's can be found across the nation

Panda Express - One of the biggest chains

Peet's Coffee - another chain though not one of the two big ones.

Starbucks - One of the two big ones

Teavana - Owned by Starbucks

Wetzel's Pretzels - Another large chain

Seems like the vast majority of dining options at the Westfield SF Center are chains, many of them BIG. I would say only a small percentage is truly local and non-chain.

And heck, Westfield is one of the largest Mall Chains in the world. Nothing really special IMHO.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It is not unusual for true small businesses in such environments, including crowded ones, to require some form of assistance. This is why they tend to be in local government-backed developments. It's an odd Catch 22 that requires a precarious balance.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Another point, and I think it is important, most people travelling on vacation, especially with kids are on a budget, and don't want to go high end on most meals. They might have one or two splurges, but for the most part, they are looking for a good deal, or at least mid-range.

Also access, those staying in the Disneyland area, many don't rent a car, or opt to only use it on occasion, and prefer to walk or use pubic transit.

So that means places like AGW, DtD, the restaurants on Harbor, and then looking at getting on transit to go to places like Buena Park (easy bus ride), The Outlets at Orange, etc.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-...ornia:10.Easy.Trips.Using.Public.Transit.html

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-...fornia:Shopping.Areas.Via.Public.Transit.html

 

[NobodyElse]

Just a quick perhaps-relevant observation. Last time I stopped by AGW, I seem to recall noting the promise / implication that several smaller eateries were going into the north end of the mall. This was represented by large graphic coverings over the storefronts. My memory tells me that most of these were not recognizable national or local chains (though they could be off-shoots of larger companies for all I know). Or, it could be the retail version of that "Lorem ipsum" placeholder text. I'll try to swing by next week and take some photos.

When Westfield expanded San Francisco Centre about a decade ago they made a point of leasing to mostly (I'd say it's about 90%) local eateries in their large subterranean food court. If you want McDonald's, California Pizza Kitchen, or Starbucks you'll have to go elsewhere either in another section of the mall or outside. Note that SF Centre is directly across the street from the Powell Street Cable Car terminus and has both Bloomingdale's and Nordstrom as anchors.

Likewise with San Francisco's 100+ year-old Ferry Building in the Financial District, which was practically crumbling apart when the Port of San Francisco gave it a magnificent overhaul. The marketplace floor is constantly teeming with both locals and tourists enjoying locally sourced produce, an oyster bar, wines, local coffee vendors, gourmet burgers and a lively weekend farmer's market. No Bubba Gumps here.

It's unfortunate that the city didn't push the AGW developers to bring a more authentic shopping and dining experience to Anaheim. It would have been a nice counterpoint to the corporate commercialism of DTD and the rest of DLR.



Yes, but Disney can get away with it because the parks and hotels act as anchors at each end of the property. DTD would probably as deserted as AGW if it weren't for the parks.



Chains aren't the issue. The issue is that AGW is leasing to national chains that aren't compelling or special enough to warrant a visit.