New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[photomatt]

Disney could have avoided this mess by using technology to intelligently assign return times for people with DAS. The return time could have been based on the current stand-by time, the number of people who purchased Genie+ and individual LL's, and the number of people with DAS currently using it. There is no law that requires to Disney to assign return times based on the current stand-by wait time. If you want quicker return times, then you can purchase Genie+.

I have had a DAS pass and I often go to the parks with people who still have them. I am not against DAS in any way. I just think that Disney didn't need to get the black eye on this. They could have kept the current system and simply increased the length of DAS return times to avoid affecting people who paid for Genie+. They are legally entitled to do this.

Now, Disney is doing something that is not ADA compliant. Disney is arbritarily denying equal access to people with disabilities. This is clear, and Disney won't prevail. The problem is that it will take years for the challenges to work their way through the courts.

Asking someone to wear a diaper, or to wear headphones, or to practice standing in line is not equal access. Requiring someone to go to a cast member at every attraction and ask for a return time after explaining their disability is not equal access. It's nothing but cruel, and it's totally unneccessary.

 

[flynnibus]

There’s nothing to prevent a disabled guest from riding multiple times. Are you talking about giving DAS holders unlimited line-skips while Disney is selling Genie+ to many of its guests and limiting them to one ride?

I think you have to look at the reality of Disney’s current business model and how it’s being employed in the parks. A court won’t look at how many times a non disabled guest can theoretically get on rides.

I don't agree. For the same reason we believe limiting DAS to a single use per attraction wouldn't fly... because it's not a constraint customers normally face.

I could very much see Disney trying to do something like limiting re-rides with cool off timers.. and justifying it the same way they did when throwing out GAC... to prevent the small population from disproportionally impairing the rest of the population and their business. What is reasonable as a cool-off timer would be looked at and justified by considering what is typical for all guests. Yes this is an angle Disney has not yet taken, but it is not something really off the table and used to illustrate how comparisons with the general population guests can come into play.

 

[Chi84]

Now, Disney is doing something that is not ADA compliant. Disney is arbritarily denying equal access to people with disabilities. This is clear, and Disney won't prevail. The problem is that it will take years for the challenges to work their way through the courts

You don’t think Disney would be able to show that DAS was fundamentally altering their services to other guests by decreasing their satisfaction with wait times?

Disney easily met that burden in going from GAC to DAS. And now its business model is actually selling a less desirable product to its guests.

 

[photomatt]

You don’t think Disney would be able to show that DAS was fundamentally altering their services to other guests by decreasing their satisfaction with wait times?

Disney easily met that burden in going from GAC to DAS. And now its business model is actually selling a less desirable product to its guests.

I am 100 percent certain they have the data to show that the current DAS system was fundamentally altering their services to other guests and decreasing satisfaction. I have no disagreement here.

The problem with the new system is that Disney is arbitrarily asking people to wait in lines when the previous DAS system allowed them to wait somewhere else. This is not equal access.

Equal access does not mean equal wait times at the expense of people who pay for shorter wait times. Disney could have increased return times, as necessary, for people using DAS. Technology would have solved this problem if they would have invested in it.

DAS should NOT give an advantage to people who have it. It should do nothing except provide equal access, but I know that's not what it did. It gives an unfair advantage over guests who use the stand-by lines and who pay for Genie+. That should not happen. Please remember that I say this as someone who has had DAS and as someone who often goes to the parks with people who still have it. DAS should not give anyone an advantage. If you want shorter wait times, purchase Genie+.

 

[flynnibus]

I am 100 percent certain they have the data to show that the current DAS system was fundamentally altering their services to other guests and decreasing satisfaction. I have no disagreement here.

The problem with the new system is that Disney is arbitrarily asking people to wait in lines when the previous DAS system allowed them to wait somewhere else. This is not equal access.

Equal access does not mean equal wait times at the expense of people who pay for shorter wait times. Disney could have increased return times, as necessary, for people using DAS. Technology would have solved this problem if they would have invested in it.

DAS should NOT give an advantage to people who have it. It should do nothing except provide equal access, but I know that's not what it did. It gives an unfair advantage over guests who use the stand-by lines and who pay for Genie+. That should not happen. Please remember that I say this as someone who has had DAS and as someone who often goes to the parks with people who still have it. DAS should not give anyone an advantage. If you want shorter wait times, purchase Genie+.

I think you overshoot here a bit...

An accommodation isn't intending to 'do nothing except provide equal access'. What the constraints are is the system should not disadvantage the disabled (where possible) as you strive for equal participation and the system can not be setup in a way to discourage or discriminate against it's use (avoiding trying to discriminate and discourage the disabled from having opportunity like others).

Sometimes such an accomodation may actually result in traits someone may see as a benefit over others. If I get to sit on a bench, while you are forced to stand... you aren't going to say I can't be allowed to sit on a bench because that wouldn't be equal. The bench is because I need it, not because it's a perk.

Disney could have increased return times, as necessary, for people using DAS

? Disney already gave people wait times approximate to the same wait as others. To artificially inflate their wait times as some sort of discouragment of using DAS would be discriminatory.

The advantage of DAS is largely exactly what the accomodation provided.. the escape from the queue. The 'advantage' was that freedom could also be used to double dip. It's not good customer service to try to put customers in a 'time out' where they can't do anything... even if you think it's for some abuse prevention. That's a no-win situation.

 

[WDWTrojan]

I don’t understand the outrage here aside from those who truly need DAS for cases like Autism where it will be approved. If you want to breeze through the line, buy Genie+.

Agreed. Not doubting that many people have illnesses and disabilities which certainly make theme parks harder to navigate. However, DAS went above + beyond what was required, which I think spoiled a lot of people and also allowed for a LOT of abuse from people who didn't need the service.

Now Disney is saying DAS is only for people with severe developmental disabilities that make waiting in a traditional queue impossible 100% of the time. For everyone else, they're offering a couple of other options which are short of DAS and aren't as convenient, but if you have a true disability you'll appreciate them (eg being able to step out of line with a family member, while the rest of your family continues the queue).

There's also a whole lot of hang wringing about some of the guidance Disney is providing. Lots of these complainers have things like POTS or heat-triggered illnesses, which I'm not doubting is awful. So Disney encourages you to visit during cooler times. This is helpful advice. Why would someone even consider traveling to central Florida in the summer with an illness that makes you lose consciousness in heat? Same thing with encouraging parent that has a child with ADHD or another such illness to practice waiting in line at home. These things could perhaps seem patronizing but they are helpful pieces of advice.

If you find that the accessibility options aren't as convenient for you as DAS was, then Genie+ is a worthwhile investment.

Mentioned this quite a few pages ago but think of it like this. Someone with mobility issue purchases a basic economy plane ticket, which gives them the bare minimum and doesn't allow you to pre-book seats or anything else. Due to their mobility issue, they can rightfully expect the airline to provide service to get them onto the plane and have a seat they can sit safely in. Not a problem. But someone who purchases a basic economy with IBS or a similar condition can't force the airline to give them an aisle seat near a bathroom for convenience of being able to make the bathroom on time. They can ask, but the airline may well say "we suggest you upgrade to our next fare class to pre-book a seat." Not too different than G+. Disney is offering the minimum level of accommodations but if you want more convenience you can essentially buy a better fare class (eg G+).

 

[jaklgreen]

Agreed. Not doubting that many people have illnesses and disabilities which certainly make theme parks harder to navigate. However, DAS went above + beyond what was required, which I think spoiled a lot of people and also allowed for a LOT of abuse from people who didn't need the service.

Now Disney is saying DAS is only for people with severe developmental disabilities that make waiting in a traditional queue impossible 100% of the time. For everyone else, they're offering a couple of other options which are short of DAS and aren't as convenient, but if you have a true disability you'll appreciate them (eg being able to step out of line with a family member, while the rest of your family continues the queue).

There's also a whole lot of hang wringing about some of the guidance Disney is providing. Lots of these complainers have things like POTS or heat-triggered illnesses, which I'm not doubting is awful. So Disney encourages you to visit during cooler times. This is helpful advice. Why would someone even consider traveling to central Florida in the summer with an illness that makes you lose consciousness in heat? Same thing with encouraging parent that has a child with ADHD or another such illness to practice waiting in line at home. These things could perhaps seem patronizing but they are helpful pieces of advice.

If you find that the accessibility options aren't as convenient for you as DAS was, then Genie+ is a worthwhile investment.

Mentioned this quite a few pages ago but think of it like this. Someone with mobility issue purchases a basic economy plane ticket, which gives them the bare minimum and doesn't allow you to pre-book seats or anything else. Due to their mobility issue, they can rightfully expect the airline to provide service to get them onto the plane and have a seat they can sit safely in. Not a problem. But someone who purchases a basic economy with IBS or a similar condition can't force the airline to give them an aisle seat near a bathroom for convenience of being able to make the bathroom on time. They can ask, but the airline may well say "we suggest you upgrade to our next fare class to pre-book a seat." Not too different than G+. Disney is offering the minimum level of accommodations but if you want more convenience you can essentially buy a better fare class (eg G+).

https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/seating-accommodations
Actually, I believe that you are wrong. This would fall under seating accommodations, which is something that airlines do for disabilities. IBS is a covered disability under the ADA, so if they ask for those accommodations, like an aisle seat, they should be accommodated.

 

[aprilibeth]

Well, that depends on the airport. You can easily wait well over an hour to get through security at busy times at the bigger airports.

I've seen the domestic security line over 90 minutes in Atlanta and that's not a wild outlier.

Even at 90 min. That is your wait. Once. In a day. Maybe you wait another few minutes at the plane. Possibly seated or getting a snack. You don't get out of that security line and immediate get in another 30-90 min line. Then another. Even with das, most people who need it are not spending an entire day in the park. The tolerance for it just isn't there. Whether physical or not.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Really? That one actually seems pretty fundamental to me. If a non disabled guest wants to stand in line for Space Mountain over and over and over they are totally allowed to do that. Ergo a DAS user can do the same. I feel like limiting it would be similar to making handicapped parking spots 30 minutes only in a parking lot where everyone else can park all day.

The reason why it’s not a given is because the ADA only requires an equivalent experience, and I’m confident if challenged Disney would have reams of data showing that the vast majority of guests do not reride headliners that have 90 minute waits, because that’s not really tolerable for the non-disabled either. In any event, this is academic because Disney has not introduced that limit.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I just think that Disney didn't need to get the black eye on this

Disney isn’t getting a black eye over this.

 

[maemae74]

Disney could have avoided this mess by using technology to intelligently assign return times for people with DAS. The return time could have been based on the current stand-by time, the number of people who purchased Genie+ and individual LL's, and the number of people with DAS currently using it. There is no law that requires to Disney to assign return times based on the current stand-by wait time. If you want quicker return times, then you can purchase Genie+.

I have had a DAS pass and I often go to the parks with people who still have them. I am not against DAS in any way. I just think that Disney didn't need to get the black eye on this. They could have kept the current system and simply increased the length of DAS return times to avoid affecting people who paid for Genie+. They are legally entitled to do this.

Now, Disney is doing something that is not ADA compliant. Disney is arbritarily denying equal access to people with disabilities. This is clear, and Disney won't prevail. The problem is that it will take years for the challenges to work their way through the courts.

Asking someone to wear a diaper, or to wear headphones, or to practice standing in line is not equal access. Requiring someone to go to a cast member at every attraction and ask for a return time after explaining their disability is not equal access. It's nothing but cruel, and it's totally unneccessary.

How are they denying equal access?

 

[Angel Ariel]

But someone who purchases a basic economy with IBS or a similar condition can't force the airline to give them an aisle seat near a bathroom for convenience of being able to make the bathroom on time. They can ask, but the airline may well say "we suggest you upgrade to our next fare class to pre-book a seat."

We only really fly southwest, so I can't speak to the different levels of choosing seats when booking - but on SW you can request medical pre board (wheelchair not required), and board first and choose seats where you need them to be.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

We only really fly southwest, so I can't speak to the different levels of choosing seats when booking - but on SW you can request medical pre board (wheelchair not required), and board first and choose seats where you need them to be.

There are some startling similarities between this and DAS, in that there is rampant abuse and it is likely pushing Southwest towards having to revamp their entire policy:

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/southwest-airlines-preboarding-cheaters-c71a88a5

 

[Angel Ariel]

There are some startling similarities between this and DAS, in that there is rampant abuse and it is likely pushing Southwest towards having to revamp their entire policy:

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/southwest-airlines-preboarding-cheaters-c71a88a5

Can't read the article without a subscription, but I've read a bit about that before. In all our trips from one of SW's main east coast hubs to MCO, LAX, etc - we have never seen a huge pre boarding population. It's been maybe 4-5 people. Like Disney, I'm sure SW has the data and we will just have to wait and see what they do.

 

[TeriofTerror]

Can't read the article without a subscription, but I've read a bit about that before. In all our trips from one of SW's main east coast hubs to MCO, LAX, etc - we have never seen a huge pre boarding population. It's been maybe 4-5 people. Like Disney, I'm sure SW has the data and we will just have to wait and see what they do.

I fly SW for work frequently, and it's never a problem on those trips. On my last two flights home on SW from MCO, however, there were *very* large groups traveling together that all had pre-board. The first one caused a delay, but at least the entire party sat together in the rear of the plane. On our last trip, they split up into groups of two and took two out of three seats (often leaving the middle seat) throughout much of the plane. We had EB, boarding A-27 and A-28, and had to go well past the middle to find two seats together. The slow pre-boarding due to the vast number of them also caused the flight to be delayed by more than an hour.

 

[Kingoglow]

Can't read the article without a subscription, but I've read a bit about that before. In all our trips from one of SW's main east coast hubs to MCO, LAX, etc - we have never seen a huge pre boarding population. It's been maybe 4-5 people. Like Disney, I'm sure SW has the data and we will just have to wait and see what they do.

The article speaks to a problem that Southwest has, similar to what is being discussed about Disney. A noticeable jump in the number of people using the pre boarding service airlines (the articles focuses on Southwest) offers. It touches on how the increasing number of pre boarders is starting to affect other passengers, who often are paying more for boarding position or are at the top tiers of loyalty programs. It mentions the jetway jesus effect often talked about online, where wheelchair users that pre board can disembark the plane at their destination without assistance. At the end of the article it mentions Disney and DAS, stating that Disney experiences similar problems and is working to address the problem.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

the jetway jesus effect

Lol, I’d never heard that phrase before. This is strikingly similar to, for example, the poster earlier in this thread who used DAS “numerous times” to get FOTL access to skip a 10 minute peoplemover line but miraculously has no problem waiting 20 minutes in the Soarin Lightning Lane.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I fly SW for work frequently, and it's never a problem on those trips. On my last two flights home on SW from MCO, however, there were *very* large groups traveling together that all had pre-board. The first one caused a delay, but at least the entire party sat together in the rear of the plane. On our last trip, they split up into groups of two and took two out of three seats (often leaving the middle seat) throughout much of the plane. We had EB, boarding A-27 and A-28, and had to go well past the middle to find two seats together. The slow pre-boarding due to the vast number of them also caused the flight to be delayed by more than an hour.

The worst part of this is that these entitled abusers can result in young children being split up from a parent, since they board before family boarding. The risk of this is one of the reasons I don’t fly Southwest. You used to be able to rely on family boarding to ensure you could sit with your children (even if it’s at the back of the plane), but now that seems like less of a guarantee. I’m sure there are other parents like me who only fly on an airline where we can select seats out of a fear of being separated from our children, so that’s definitely impacting their business.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Right now there is nothing in the law that requires Disney to give line-skips (I know what they are - same as Genie+) at all, much less unlimited ones.

Given the nature of the theme park business and Disney’s current business model, I don’t think any court is going to impose that requirement on it, much less require it to be unlimited.

I could be wrong, obviously, because court cases are decided on particular facts and no case has been filed yet (as far as I know).

I see your logic, I think we’re talking about two different things. If line accessibility isn’t legally required at all then there’s nothing else to say about it. If it is required, however, I don’t think it can be provided on a limited basis, as accommodations are supposed to be available during operating hours.

 

[DisneyHead123]

The reason why it’s not a given is because the ADA only requires an equivalent experience, and I’m confident if challenged Disney would have reams of data showing that the vast majority of guests do not reride headliners that have 90 minute waits, because that’s not really tolerable for the non-disabled either. In any event, this is academic because Disney has not introduced that limit.

First I have no idea if guests tend to re-ride headliners or not, I don’t think either one of us has data on that. Second it would depend on if the courts look at equality of outcome or equality of opportunity in regard to access, and I think we’d have to ask someone with a legal background there.