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Rumor Muppets to Take Over The Hall of Presidents

SplashZander

Well-Known Member
same people want to remove small world and cop and move to epcot :rolleyes: remove speedway ROA and tom sawyer. They dont realize A this isnt roller coaster tycoon that its all point and click, and that we need to keep the feel of MK. MK has space and doesnt need to remove anything... there are still plots.. and lets be honest they could extend the berm and build another land inside the MK.. this isnt disneyland. Id bather spend billions extending the berm and building a villains land than spend that money removing the energy and classic disney feel from moving major rides and draining ROA
In terms of moving Speedway and Small World, there are very practical reasons for each.

Small World creates a massive chokepoint and has a very unappealing facade (by far the worst in the world), and wouldn't be all that difficult to move as it's essentially just a massive warehouse. Additionally, there is precedent for this, at one point in time, it was planned to move IASW in Tokyo, inevitably, that plan fell through, but the move was far less needed than WDW's move.

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WDW's Speedway is extremely ugly and creates an undesirable spot in the park. Speedway attractions have recently been disappearing across the world. Tokyo lost theirs for the BatB expansion and Hong Kong lost theirs for the Marvel E-Ticket expansion and Shanghai never had a Speedway. So relocating it to Epcot would be a way of saving it from its inevitable demise, while also giving families with young kids another reason to visit Epcot.
 

ppete1975

Well-Known Member
In terms of moving Speedway and Small World, there are very practical reasons for each.

Small World creates a massive chokepoint and has a very unappealing facade (by far the worst in the world), and wouldn't be all that difficult to move as it's essentially just a massive warehouse. Additionally, there is precedent for this, at one point in time, it was planned to move IASW in Tokyo, inevitably, that plan fell through, but the move was far less needed than WDW's move.

View attachment 563713

WDW's Speedway is extremely ugly and creates an undesirable spot in the park. Speedway attractions have recently been disappearing across the world. Tokyo lost theirs for the BatB expansion and Hong Kong lost theirs for the Marvel E-Ticket expansion and Shanghai never had a Speedway. So relocating it to Epcot would be a way of saving it from its inevitable demise, while also giving families with young kids another reason to visit Epcot.
we can disagree on speedway and thats fine. But people underestimate the ease of moving small world and how long it would take and how expensive it would be (this is disney after all). And Small world fits exactly where it is theres no need to move it.
Would you rather have a meet and greet where small world is and lose a ride that might be in the pipeline.. because lets be honest thats what we would get, the cost and space small world would take would cost you another ride or experience.
Also look at the demographic.. little little kids on one of their first rides is one of the big ones and people who expect to see it at DISNEY (there are people who only go to MK because its "like disneyland" and dont do the other parks) and how many little kids want to go to Epcot. And if you moved it to Epcot it would be in drunk aisle, great place for strollers and bored toddlers.

Its perfect where it is.
 

MagicHappens1971

Well-Known Member
same people want to remove small world and cop and move to epcot :rolleyes: remove speedway ROA and tom sawyer. They dont realize A this isnt roller coaster tycoon that its all point and click, and that we need to keep the feel of MK. MK has space and doesnt need to remove anything... there are still plots.. and lets be honest they could extend the berm and build another land inside the MK.. this isnt disneyland. Id bather spend billions extending the berm and building a villains land than spend that money removing the energy and classic disney feel from moving major rides and draining ROA
I actually agree with the Speedway & Small World. Small World takes up way too much space and causes many issues with the bottle neck in that area of fantasyland, and with the show buidling gone they could build a new attraction and restaurant. Speedway is old and dated and honestly nothing special, same argument, takes up way too much damn space, does not aid in the alresdy horrible transition from TL to FL. RoA is a different story
 

MisterPenguin

Fully Pfizered!
Premium Member
Keep in mind that every ride comes to a point where the refurbishment from simply being old is going to cost almost as much as a new ride (cf. TGMR).

That's the time to move IaSW... and upgrade it. Keep the same artistic design aesthetic, but make the puppets more articulated like Sinbad. Also, make it longer, more diverse, and an updated soundtrack that keeps the main melody but adds new countermelodies, harmonies, descants, orchestrations, etc... Totally fits World Showcase. Totally doesn't fit Fantasyland, unless one wants to make the point that world peace is a fantasy.

This would open up a huge swath of land behind HM and RoA for development.

Speedway is mostly cars on tracks. Totally movable. Either go ahead with the TRON + Electric Car overlay, or ditch the fossil fuel relic and put a RC Car racetrack in Toy Story Land.
 

ppete1975

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind that every ride comes to a point where the refurbishment from simply being old is going to cost almost as much as a new ride (cf. TGMR).

That's the time to move IaSW... and upgrade it. Keep the same artistic design aesthetic, but make the puppets more articulated like Sinbad. Also, make it longer, more diverse, and an updated soundtrack that keeps the main melody but adds new countermelodies, harmonies, descants, orchestrations, etc... Totally fits World Showcase. Totally doesn't fit Fantasyland, unless one wants to make the point that world peace is a fantasy.

This would open up a huge swath of land behind HM and RoA for development.

Speedway is mostly cars on tracks. Totally movable. Either go ahead with the TRON + Electric Car overlay, or ditch the fossil fuel relic and put a RC Car racetrack in Toy Story Land.
longer...... you want more of that ear worm? :) people might go insane half way through
 

Magicart87

〝𝘙𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵𝘺-𝘖!〞
Premium Member
There is NO need to move either. Both are fine and delight young children. The last thing we need at the Magic Kingdom is another thrill ride for roller coaster fanboys.
The argument is moving certain MK attractions to other parks where they would be of better use while simultaneously freeing up Magic Kingdom for more attraction options. MK is "seemingly" busting at the seams. The other parks can't make that claim.

The armchair theory is that by moving IASW, Monster's Laugh Floor, Speedway (possibly) etc, to other parks it allows MK to "properly" expand. Expansion is the goal not satisfying a specific age group. Besides, MK is already the "kiddie park". Losing a few attractions to make way for MORE broader family attractions with the sole purpose to gobble up guests seems like a no brainier. They don't have to be thrill rides. Relocating attractions to other parks would only serve to increase a park's ride count thus lessening the strain put on MK by dispersing guests to other parks. In theory, it's a win-win. In theory.

On the flip side of that argument there are individuals that feel relocation isn't a solution because it's either A) not feasible for "reasons" or that B) removal is blasphemous because it would alienate a specific age group, mess with a "classic" or some other such issue of which I don't fully understand. It's all armchair anyway - until it isn't.

So, about those Muppets taking over HoP!?
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Speedway is mostly cars on tracks. Totally movable. Either go ahead with the TRON + Electric Car overlay, or ditch the fossil fuel relic and put a RC Car racetrack in Toy Story Land.

This is what they should have done when they built TSL, but I don't see any way for them to make that happen now without closing Slinky Dog for an extended period of time. They really did not plan TSL well at all or use the space efficiently. They didn't really use the space at Galaxy's Edge all that efficiently either, but there's still far more offered there than at TSL.
 
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ppete1975

Well-Known Member
The argument is moving certain MK attractions to other parks where they would be of better use while simultaneously freeing up Magic Kingdom for more attraction options. MK is "seemingly" busting at the seams. The other parks can't make that claim.

The armchair theory is that by moving IASW, Monster's Laugh Floor, Speedway (possibly) etc, to other parks it allows MK to "properly" expand. Expansion is the goal not satisfying a specific age group. Besides, MK is already the "kiddie park". Losing a few attractions to make way for MORE broader family attractions with the sole purpose to gobble up guests seems like a no brainier. They don't have to be thrill rides. Relocating attractions to other parks would only serve to increase a park's ride count thus lessening the strain put on MK by dispersing guests to other parks. In theory, it's a win-win. In theory.

On the flip side of that argument there are individuals that feel relocation isn't a solution because it's either A) not feasible for "reasons" or that B) removal is blasphemous because it would alienate a specific age group, mess with a "classic" or some other such issue of which I don't fully understand. It's all armchair anyway - until it isn't.

So, about those Muppets taking over HoP!?
theres no reason too... people underestimate what it takes to move rides.... cost... and most fit better where they are... cost.... look at it this way. Would you rather tear out a ride thats great and replace it with a new ride that might be meh which is what they are doing....
or would you rather rip out a ride... then build.... that exact same ride somewhere else for the cost of a new ride....
Did you get something new... nope.... you just moved the same thing over to somewhere else for the cost of a new thing.

Why not leave great things where they are? And build newer more amazing stuff in the massive amount of areas that you already have.

And if things suck or are no longer worth keeping, then just get rid of them.

As far as MK not catering to a specific age range... you have Epcot, you have AK, you have HS most of those areas are either too boring or height restrictive for the little ones... MK should be for all ages but rideable and enjoyed by the younger audience that wants to see the costumed characters and be more immersed in fantasy.
 

J4546

Well-Known Member
I really want them to update the speedway, at least electrify it. If it was up to me Id replace the entire track system with the on rails spinning track system from Duel GP in Suzuka. That would make it so much better, as you could learn how to drift around the track. If they "tronify" the speedway so that it looks futuristic and blends in with tomorrowland, Im all for it.

As for IaSW, I really dislike that ride but I get its a classic. It would be really hard to move as the building is huge, but also the entrance to the tunnels that run under MK is right beside the Small World show building, so you would have to take that into account. Not impossible, but I wouldnt want to put in in World Showcase at Epcot cause that would take up a future country pavilion spot. If there was another spot to put it in, maybe.
 

Brer Panther

Well-Known Member
Small World creates a massive chokepoint and has a very unappealing facade (by far the worst in the world), and wouldn't be all that difficult to move as it's essentially just a massive warehouse.
Isn't it also sitting on a potential expansion pad?
unless one wants to make the point that world peace is a fantasy.
Isn't it?
or ditch the fossil fuel relic and put a RC Car racetrack in Toy Story Land.
I like this idea, it would add more capacity to Hollywood Studios and I think you could do some fun things with a Toy Story Land version.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
So on a recent podcast, we did our fantasy buildouts for MK through 2035...

IMO, all of Liberty Square and Frontierland needs an overhaul. The architecture can be tweaked, and the theme modified to something that allows for logical expansion.

Liberty Square to Frontierland has a complexity of theming that no other land at WDW really has. As you move through the land you are seeing the passage of time and geographic location. Any modification to the area dilutes that theme. They did it with Splash Mountain initially, but the bandaid needs to be ripped off. I'm dancing around an actual solution here, saving it for a podcast discussion but I'm comfortable identifying the problems.

To be clear, I don't think the Frontierland/Liberty Square theming issue is a bigger issue than everything that's wrong with Tomorrowland, but it is absolutely something that will need to be addressed in time.

Tom Sawyer Island and the Rivers of America represent a significant amount of real estate in the park that is underutilized. Something to think about, Haunted Mansion is closer to Big Thunder Mountain Railroad as the [raven] flies than it is to Splash Mountain. Filling in part of the Rivers of America and connecting Haunted Mansion and Big Thunder Mountain Railroad presents a wide range of possibilities. From a theming standpoint, The Haunted Mansion and its variants exist in Liberty Square, New Orleans Square, Frontierland, Fantasyland and Mystic Point when looking around the world.

I like where you are going with this. Very cool if they could get it approved. Liberty Square architecture is some of the best in the park. So as long as that stays and a tall ship gets added, I'm good with it.

So I went into greater detail on my podcast, but the issue I have with this area is that the original conceit of Liberty Square and Frontierland are incredibly difficult to expand upon without diluting the theme. As I said above the land is setup linearly both in time and geographic location. That conceit needs to go away to allow for modifications.

My suggestions for the area are as follows:

  • Eliminate the Liberty Square name
  • Kick the presidents out (my recommendation was a full fledged Great Moments in American History w/the Muppets, but I'd listen to other options)
  • Permanently dock the Riverboat near Splash/Tiana's Mountain and use it as a live music venue
  • Fill in part of the Rivers of America and/or build bridges to Tom Sawyer Island. This would allow for a more direct walking path between Big Thunder and The Haunted Mansion
  • While I wouldn't oppose eliminating Tom Sawyer Island entirely, I would keep the front island (closest to the main land) as an accessible by bridge option.
  • Frontierland would consist of Big Thunder, the front Tom Sawyer Island and whatever you want to put on the back Tom Sawyer Island (Western River Expedition? Restaurant?)
  • The horseshoe that extends from Haunted Mansion to Splash Mountain would become a new land that I'm calling Riverfront Square. Fans of Disney history will recognize the name from the proposed St. Louis Missouri park. I would lean into Americana / Mississippi River for theming and overhaul the four restaurants along that stretch to represent different types of American faire. Pecos Bill would become Tiana's, you can have BBQ, Seafood, Pizza, Comfort Food, whatever you want in the other restaurants. I also wouldn't oppose a new Pecos Bill on what is now Tom Sawyer Island.
In terms of moving Speedway and Small World, there are very practical reasons for each.

Small World creates a massive chokepoint and has a very unappealing facade (by far the worst in the world), and wouldn't be all that difficult to move as it's essentially just a massive warehouse. Additionally, there is precedent for this, at one point in time, it was planned to move IASW in Tokyo, inevitably, that plan fell through, but the move was far less needed than WDW's move.

View attachment 563713

WDW's Speedway is extremely ugly and creates an undesirable spot in the park. Speedway attractions have recently been disappearing across the world. Tokyo lost theirs for the BatB expansion and Hong Kong lost theirs for the Marvel E-Ticket expansion and Shanghai never had a Speedway. So relocating it to Epcot would be a way of saving it from its inevitable demise, while also giving families with young kids another reason to visit Epcot.
I agree with everything you said. We made a rule that I couldn't move it's a small world (it's my go to solution for a lot of MK's problems) but we could eliminate the Speedway if we wanted to. I don't mind Speedway attractions, but historically they're an inefficient use of space. I'd welcome the Speedway if the land had layers of things on top of it (kind of like Disneyland, but even more efficient).

My suggestion was actually to double up on the Speedway. Re-design two intersecting tracks, one loading from the Tron side, one loading from the existing Speedway side. The Tron Side would carry the Tron aesthetic, and the opposite side would carry a Wreck it Ralph aesthetic. Both attractions enter through arcades (Flynn's and Litwacks) and have a short indoor portion. In that indoor portion, Flynn hacks the Tron vehicles, and the Sugar Rush vehicles "glitch". They join each other outside in a muddled intersecting "Theme" that could include an extended light canopy, elevation changes, etc.
 
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owlsandcoffee

Well-Known Member
  • Kick the presidents out (my recommendation was a full fledged Great Moments in American History w/the Muppets, but I'd listen to other options)
That seems like a downgrade to me, I've always felt that HoP is the kind of emotional core of the whole park. It's a solemn statement on our country's history. To make that Muppety feels wrong to me.
  • Permanently dock the Riverboat near Splash/Tiana's Mountain and use it as a live music venue
You'd lose a ton of kinetic energy around the RoA, imo. To me it almost feels like these suggestions take things out of the park as opposed to adding things in.
 

GimpYancIent

Well-Known Member
So on a recent podcast, we did our fantasy buildouts for MK through 2035...





So I went into greater detail on my podcast, but the issue I have with this area is that the original conceit of Liberty Square and Frontierland are incredibly difficult to expand upon without diluting the theme. As I said above the land is setup linearly both in time and geographic location. That conceit needs to go away to allow for modifications.

My suggestions for the area are as follows:

  • Eliminate the Liberty Square name
  • Kick the presidents out (my recommendation was a full fledged Great Moments in American History w/the Muppets, but I'd listen to other options)
  • Permanently dock the Riverboat near Splash/Tiana's Mountain and use it as a live music venue
  • Fill in part of the Rivers of America and/or build bridges to Tom Sawyer Island. This would allow for a more direct walking path between Big Thunder and The Haunted Mansion
  • While I wouldn't oppose eliminating Tom Sawyer Island entirely, I would keep the front island (closest to the main land) as an accessible by bridge option.
  • Frontierland would consist of Big Thunder, the front Tom Sawyer Island and whatever you want to put on the back Tom Sawyer Island (Western River Expedition? Restaurant?)
  • The horseshoe that extends from Haunted Mansion to Splash Mountain would become a new land that I'm calling Riverfront Square. Fans of Disney history will recognize the name from the proposed St. Louis Missouri park. I would lean into Americana / Mississippi River for theming and overhaul the four restaurants along that stretch to represent different types of American faire. Pecos Bill would become Tiana's, you can have BBQ, Seafood, Pizza, Comfort Food, whatever you want in the other restaurants. I also wouldn't oppose a new Pecos Bill on what is now Tom Sawyer Island.

I agree with everything you said. We made a rule that I couldn't move it's a small world (it's my go to solution for a lot of MK's problems) but we could eliminate the Speedway if we wanted to. I don't mind Speedway attractions, but historically they're an inefficient use of space. I'd welcome the Speedway if the land had layers of things on top of it (kind of like Disneyland, but even more efficient).

My suggestion was actually to double up on the Speedway. Re-design two intersecting tracks, one loading from the Tron side, one loading from the existing Speedway side. The Tron Side would carry the Tron aesthetic, and the opposite side would carry a Wreck it Ralph aesthetic. Both attractions enter through arcades (Flynn's and Litwacks) and have a short indoor portion. In that indoor portion, Flynn hacks the Tron vehicles, and the Sugar Rush vehicles "glitch". They join each other outside in a muddled intersecting "Theme" that could include an extended light canopy, elevation changes, etc.
Seeing as you did a PODCAST I am sure you stimulated discussion and debate. As for me you present something to talk about but I hope I never see it happen.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
That seems like a downgrade to me, I've always felt that HoP is the kind of emotional core of the whole park. It's a solemn statement on our country's history. To make that Muppety feels wrong to me.

You'd lose a ton of kinetic energy around the RoA, imo. To me it almost feels like these suggestions take things out of the park as opposed to adding things in.
The kinetic energy comment is a fair one, I would argue that a live music venue would help with that kinetic energy but your point is well taken.

As for HoP, I detest Trump but felt that the most recent version of HoP was the best version. Having said that, HoP is the most divisive attraction in Walt Disney World. They can go through all through the sensitivity updates they want, but unless the remove HoP they will have not fully addressed the issue.
 

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