CaptainMichael
Well-Known Member
AngryEyes said:
Good point! Thank you for posting your observation! Welcome to the boards!
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Monorail Expansion...maybe..
- Thread starter tk421-sw
- Start date
Good point! Thank you for posting your observation! Welcome to the boards!
clarkstallings
New Member
A bus costs 280 grand. Four buses can carry the number of passengers one monorail can. These buses are also not restricted to a single beamway, but can be used property wide in a number of functions. When a monorail breaks down, we all know it stops an entire line, not to mention it strands a large amount of passengers. They are simply not practical,they are an expensive solution to a problem that can be solved far more cheaply. Four buses cost as much as one monorail train. For 100 million, the capacity of 100 monorail trains can be added. Additionally, they can be added short order. I'm a student and bus driver at the University of Georgia. I used to not like buses, but now that I drive them, I marvel at the efficiency of a well thought out bus transit system.
thedisneyfan
Member
CRO-Magnum said:
Thank you for putting deep thought into how such an idea would be feasible and beneficial. As to the monorail not being a feasible means of transportation, then why did Vegas see the need and the benefit versus just adding more buses? And for that matter why are any subway, monorail, or other rail systems used anywhere if buses are so superior? I think that the option of a monorail expansion or new similar system should not be so quickly dispensed with. I believe that this issue needs further exploration, especially as WDW continues to expand. I've had many a long bus ride because of the increased vehicular traffic around WDW, and I don't see this getting any better as the years go by with more and more vehicles and more and more stop lights added to the same roads.
Invero
Well-Known Member
thedisneyfan said:
It's not a matter of monorails (or really, fixed guideway systems) being impractical or not feasible. It's a matter of them not being practical for Walt Disney World in specific.
The Vegas monorail is set up along the Strip. It's a single line. It doesn't bounce around and go all over the place. It goes in a figurative straight line, with multiple stops, no major hub. Disney on the other hand, you're dealing with hubs, and MAJOR traffic flows from 20+ destinations to one single destination, and then the reverse at night.
wow, I was by no mean trying to say that it WAS going to happen, just saying what the CM told me, I know most of them are crazy! Just the fact that he told me that i found odd. But yeah, I mean, construction costs differ from day to day, and it's almsot to be SURE what it would cost Disney to do it.
My opinion, If they did it, I would use it. (I don't know all this stuff about them breaking down, Iv NEVER been on one that brokedown, not to mention that if they did this we would be getting new ones, but whatever) but anyways, Disney can do what they want. IF it's there I will use it. It would be nice for people like me that just drive up from day to day as well. I can just hop from one park to another park without waiting 25 mins for a buss like I did at AK in April. Anyways!, Just to clearify, I didn't say I thought it was going to be done, just passing on a conversation. Thanks for all the input though, and to who ever wrote something about "Useing the Search feature" on the site. This was a new conversation so I think it's ok for me to start a thread thanks.
My opinion, If they did it, I would use it. (I don't know all this stuff about them breaking down, Iv NEVER been on one that brokedown, not to mention that if they did this we would be getting new ones, but whatever) but anyways, Disney can do what they want. IF it's there I will use it. It would be nice for people like me that just drive up from day to day as well. I can just hop from one park to another park without waiting 25 mins for a buss like I did at AK in April. Anyways!, Just to clearify, I didn't say I thought it was going to be done, just passing on a conversation. Thanks for all the input though, and to who ever wrote something about "Useing the Search feature" on the site. This was a new conversation so I think it's ok for me to start a thread thanks.
CaptainMichael
Well-Known Member
I don't think that Monorails can ever be the primary form of transportation, but I do believe that expanding it to Disney Studios and Disney's Animal Kingdom would be a good thing. Though it may not be extremely efficient, it is something special for guests to experience. Many people encounter bus use on a daily bases in the "real world." At Walt Disney World, they want to get away from such things. Monorails are a special experience and an attraction in itself!
clarkstallings
New Member
Invero said:
It is amazing. Before I got my job at campus transit, I used the buses and appreciated them. After I got the job, and went through the semester of training and all that jazz, I really really appreciate them. We actually have some Disney buses in our fleet. Anyway, I forgot to mention that I believe rail has its place and that the system of transit used is location specific. As for Disney's case, the traffic on the roads is not terribly bad, unlike a New York or Las Vegas for that matter. Furthermore, because Disney is a public company, it has a responsibility to its shareholders that supercedes all resposibilities to create magic. That responsibility is to have a return on investors's investments in the company. Disney could expand the monorail system, but with virtually unlimited space in which to expand their roads, it is an obligation of the company to choose the cheapest solution for the location. That system is, and will be for quite some time, buses. Maybe in the future, we can send not only packages to distant worlds, but people, through beams of light!
Without delving into the details of all this...
I'm just amazed, the thread has nearly 4 full pages in about 7 hours. Nothing gets people going like the Monorail, eh?
As for those who are put off by the old-timers sayin "use the search function," perhaps a bit of explination is in order...
In '02, this exact same conversation happened. Lots of brainstormed ideas, lots of people hoping, lots of bickering about who Disney has its biggest responsibility to and how that would best be done, discussions of magic, efficiency, different types of systems for different cities, projected costs of various systems, hybrid busses, PRTs, peoplemovers, the effects of wheelchair accessability, the comprehension level of customers who have to change monorails just once between MK and Epcot, what happens when various trasportation modes break down, dual beam (with switching) capabilities, ways to let Monorail routing fluctuate with traffic flows, proposed routes, special bus routes, automatic streetlights, above ground wheeled vehicles, below ground systems, comparative total transit times, flexibility for special events, upgradability, ease of further expansion, and environmental impacts (and that list is just off the top of my head).
So when the old-timers are sayin to use the search feature to dig up the old thread, they aren't necessarily being rude or telling you that your ideas/thoughts suck, just that the entire conversation has happened and that there is probably an answer to just about every point already in there. As it happens, I find it to be a fascinating read and throughly enjoyed that thread from start to finish. As for Invero, as the local expert, and some of the other more active regulars, the thread became exhausting and so they're a bit (understandably) reluctant to start it all over again.
I suggest you read it, not because I don't want you to post and not to shut you up, but because I think it is a very interesting read and because <i> everyone </i> will learn something in there.
For those that do want to contine to talk transit, what's new in the last 3 years on the issue of new "magical" transport ideas? Last we heard, there were some neat tests happening in Canada and Europe, anyone know how they went? There is something out there (or will be) that has the advantages of busses without reminding us of going to school. We just gotta find it... and then find venture capital... and then sell the idea to Disney Transport.
Lee
I'm just amazed, the thread has nearly 4 full pages in about 7 hours. Nothing gets people going like the Monorail, eh?
As for those who are put off by the old-timers sayin "use the search function," perhaps a bit of explination is in order...
In '02, this exact same conversation happened. Lots of brainstormed ideas, lots of people hoping, lots of bickering about who Disney has its biggest responsibility to and how that would best be done, discussions of magic, efficiency, different types of systems for different cities, projected costs of various systems, hybrid busses, PRTs, peoplemovers, the effects of wheelchair accessability, the comprehension level of customers who have to change monorails just once between MK and Epcot, what happens when various trasportation modes break down, dual beam (with switching) capabilities, ways to let Monorail routing fluctuate with traffic flows, proposed routes, special bus routes, automatic streetlights, above ground wheeled vehicles, below ground systems, comparative total transit times, flexibility for special events, upgradability, ease of further expansion, and environmental impacts (and that list is just off the top of my head).
So when the old-timers are sayin to use the search feature to dig up the old thread, they aren't necessarily being rude or telling you that your ideas/thoughts suck, just that the entire conversation has happened and that there is probably an answer to just about every point already in there. As it happens, I find it to be a fascinating read and throughly enjoyed that thread from start to finish. As for Invero, as the local expert, and some of the other more active regulars, the thread became exhausting and so they're a bit (understandably) reluctant to start it all over again.
I suggest you read it, not because I don't want you to post and not to shut you up, but because I think it is a very interesting read and because <i> everyone </i> will learn something in there.
For those that do want to contine to talk transit, what's new in the last 3 years on the issue of new "magical" transport ideas? Last we heard, there were some neat tests happening in Canada and Europe, anyone know how they went? There is something out there (or will be) that has the advantages of busses without reminding us of going to school. We just gotta find it... and then find venture capital... and then sell the idea to Disney Transport.
Lee
ONUpolarbears
Member
Womeone brought up an interesting point I think. Mentioning the monorail is a ride and an attraction in itself....unlike the busses. Purely speculation, but what would Walt do? I'm sure he was a shrewed businessman, but after buillding all these magical places to get people away from the "Real world" I have a hard time picturing him saying "lets get a bunch of busses to get people around. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that the busses are more feasible and what not. Just a thought I had. Do you think, assuming he had the money he would put in a monorail? Please no one get mad at me! :wave:
WWWD? What Would Walt Drive? or What Would Walt Do?
WWWD? What Would Walt Drive?
or What Would Walt Do?
CRO-Magnum
Active Member
I have to disagree...
based on my experience as a Powertrain Engineer for General Motors. There are no emissions laws for diesel engines unlike gas engines. A single diesel engine, like those used to power the WDW busses, put about the same amount of harmful pollutants into the air as the EPA mandated maximum emission for a power plant operating 100 homes (which is why scrubber systems were invented), and I understand a monorail uses 40kW of power which is about the same as 5 homes. I worked on part of the Impact (electric car - bad name) project where someone in GM R&D in Warren, MI came up with the equivalents with Diesel engines to the left as the worst, and fuel cell cars to the right as the best, and the electric car just right of center (gas left of center, hybrid in the middle). I have seen dissenting opinions but researching have found opponents of electric cars using coal power plants for comparison, or assuming gas and diesel engines belch out the same amount of filth, etc. I have never found anything to contradict the GM research.
Woody13 said:
based on my experience as a Powertrain Engineer for General Motors. There are no emissions laws for diesel engines unlike gas engines. A single diesel engine, like those used to power the WDW busses, put about the same amount of harmful pollutants into the air as the EPA mandated maximum emission for a power plant operating 100 homes (which is why scrubber systems were invented), and I understand a monorail uses 40kW of power which is about the same as 5 homes. I worked on part of the Impact (electric car - bad name) project where someone in GM R&D in Warren, MI came up with the equivalents with Diesel engines to the left as the worst, and fuel cell cars to the right as the best, and the electric car just right of center (gas left of center, hybrid in the middle). I have seen dissenting opinions but researching have found opponents of electric cars using coal power plants for comparison, or assuming gas and diesel engines belch out the same amount of filth, etc. I have never found anything to contradict the GM research.
CRO-Magnum
Active Member
Not really because a train bypass,
Lynx04 said:
disneysailor
New Member
goofyman said:
Good point, well made.
CRO-Magnum
Active Member
One thing to keep in mind about the economics...
is that most mass transit systems are evaluated from a lowest common economic standing factor (i.e. affordability by passengers) not efficiency nor long term operating cost. For example, it is a proven fact that cement reinforced roads last longer than asphalt. Why do we still build asphalt roads? Because the up front cost is much lower. Is that a smart idea? No because the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) over the lifetime of the road is less for concrete. So why is the decision made to go with a sub-optimal solution? To save taxpayers money today rather than saving them more money over time.
For Disney the issue is mass transit but not affordability. Why? Because people won't pay ANYTHING to use the system. The expect it to be free. Is this a bad thing? No, because it relieves Disney from the responsibility of making it a short term lowest cost solution to create a long term lower TCO solution which is better for the company.
There are MANY monorail projects seeking funding around the world. It is not an idea just wrapped in the glamour of Disney theme parks. Monorails provide an efficient solution to the problem of mass transit. Monorails are less subject to minor changes in grade, obstacles including roads and existing railways, and have a smaller footprint than rails (can't put a railway through a public plaza for example). In addition there is a safety factor of being in the air (no crossing accidents) as well as a commuter benefit of not tying up traffic when crossing an existing road.
is that most mass transit systems are evaluated from a lowest common economic standing factor (i.e. affordability by passengers) not efficiency nor long term operating cost. For example, it is a proven fact that cement reinforced roads last longer than asphalt. Why do we still build asphalt roads? Because the up front cost is much lower. Is that a smart idea? No because the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) over the lifetime of the road is less for concrete. So why is the decision made to go with a sub-optimal solution? To save taxpayers money today rather than saving them more money over time.
For Disney the issue is mass transit but not affordability. Why? Because people won't pay ANYTHING to use the system. The expect it to be free. Is this a bad thing? No, because it relieves Disney from the responsibility of making it a short term lowest cost solution to create a long term lower TCO solution which is better for the company.
There are MANY monorail projects seeking funding around the world. It is not an idea just wrapped in the glamour of Disney theme parks. Monorails provide an efficient solution to the problem of mass transit. Monorails are less subject to minor changes in grade, obstacles including roads and existing railways, and have a smaller footprint than rails (can't put a railway through a public plaza for example). In addition there is a safety factor of being in the air (no crossing accidents) as well as a commuter benefit of not tying up traffic when crossing an existing road.
CRO-Magnum
Active Member
And the answer is...
that light rail costs nearly the same as monorails for those advocating light rail. <a href="http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-lrt2001.htm">Look here</a> for more details. For comparison, Las Vegas cost $87M/mi and, as stated before, many transporation experts believe it can be done for $50M/mi. And, if I'm reading their information correctly, it is possible for busses to be more expense per passenger mile than other methods in dense urban areas.
What this means is that only a detailed survey would provide the information required for WDW, not that I find that surprising in the least. My goal was simply to point out that the economics can work and that monorails can be competitive. But as to priorities, I agree there are many ahead of a monorail plan such as paying cast members a real wage so they can make a living hence driving higher quality applicants, and remove the petty obstacles management has put in place to treating the CM job as a career.
that light rail costs nearly the same as monorails for those advocating light rail. <a href="http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-lrt2001.htm">Look here</a> for more details. For comparison, Las Vegas cost $87M/mi and, as stated before, many transporation experts believe it can be done for $50M/mi. And, if I'm reading their information correctly, it is possible for busses to be more expense per passenger mile than other methods in dense urban areas.
What this means is that only a detailed survey would provide the information required for WDW, not that I find that surprising in the least. My goal was simply to point out that the economics can work and that monorails can be competitive. But as to priorities, I agree there are many ahead of a monorail plan such as paying cast members a real wage so they can make a living hence driving higher quality applicants, and remove the petty obstacles management has put in place to treating the CM job as a career.
psuchad
Active Member
Lynx04 said:
Anyone who has to ride a train to work knows that this is a fact of life on the rails and can be dealt with. Heck, I rode an hour in the front car of a train in Philly with 3 cars worth of people because the last car was on fire. The brake lines locked up and the wheels caught fire.
It happens and people deal with it and get over it. If the train breaks down they can hire taxis and busses to transport people for a few hours or allow free parking. I guess what I am getting at is a broken train usually only takes a little while to clear (I am sure it is the same with a monorail) and there are always ways around it.<o
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